Volvo TAMD 73/74 and 75 ECU - Cause for concern?

[westernman]

But the VP engines can't be fixed by the mechanics out there, because they can't get the ECUs.
Which means if there is any issue with the ECU, the engine is junk.

And VP don't seem to care as the engines are (according to them) too old (20 years or so) and they expect you to buy a brand new one.
From them.

I have - and it seems it is still not possible to get the ECUs from VP although the OP seems to have found a solution.

I.e. what you said

"a ubiquitous VP engine where there's plenty of knowledge and mechanics out there to fix them and a large market for aftermarket parts."

does not help get your engine fixed as those mechanics cannot get the VP part they need and aftermarket parts require the skills of the rare mechanic who knows how to program an after market ECU to match the engine.

To quote Volvo Paul:-

"I have not heard anything further regarding the the restoration of supply from Volvo so I am assuming the product is still out of stock with no lead time or remedy from Volvo as to how the supply issue will be resolved ."

 

[petem]

I have - and it seems it is still not possible to get the ECUs from VP although the OP seems to have found a solution.

I.e. what you said

"a ubiquitous VP engine where there's plenty of knowledge and mechanics out there to fix them and a large market for aftermarket parts."

does not help get your engine fixed as those mechanics cannot get the VP part they need and aftermarket parts require the skills of the rare mechanic who knows how to program an after market ECU to match the engine.

To quote Volvo Paul:-

"I have not heard anything further regarding the the restoration of supply from Volvo so I am assuming the product is still out of stock with no lead time or remedy from Volvo as to how the supply issue will be resolved ."

The last official word I believe we had from VP was that they are still intending to supply these ECU's when they are able to do so. Anything else is pure speculation.

As I've said before, if VP advise that no further ECU's will be manufactured then I fully expect someone to come up with a solution for keeping them working.

To illustrate this point it's worth doing some simple maths....

I estimate there's approximately 10,000 engines out there that use these ECUs. These engines are worth at least £10k a piece in todays market. That's £100,000,000 worth of engines. The suitable ECU that I found could be bought for about £500. Given an engine and a few months worth of effort, a replacement ECU could be developed and marketed for a very healthy profit. If someone in Europe doesn't do it you can guarantee that the Chinese will.

Alternatively, as I said in an earlier post, these engines have been successfully converted back to use mechanical injection pumps (which is what they evolved from).

 

[petem]

I found the link. A £35 Arduino Mega powered VW TDI engine (that uses the same injection pump as a KAD44).

DMN-EDC running and fine tuning - YouTube

 

[westernman]

The last official word I believe we had from VP was that they are still intending to supply these ECU's when they are able to do so. Anything else is pure speculation.

As I've said before, if VP advise that no further ECU's will be manufactured then I fully expect someone to come up with a solution for keeping them working.

To illustrate this point it's worth doing some simple maths....

I estimate there's approximately 10,000 engines out there that use these ECUs. These engines are worth at least £10k a piece in todays market. That's £100,000,000 worth of engines. The suitable ECU that I found could be bought for about £500. Given an engine and a few months worth of effort, a replacement ECU could be developed and marketed for a very healthy profit. If someone in Europe doesn't do it you can guarantee that the Chinese will.

Alternatively, as I said in an earlier post, these engines have been successfully converted back to use mechanical injection pumps (which is what they evolved from).

As I have said, and as others have said, if I have a problem on my boat on a VP Tamd73 engine in August during my vacation and I call the local VP shop, then it is not going to get fixed and may vacation is going to be trashed unless the ECU is available as an off the shelf item.

It is not. And there is no indication that it is ever going to happen. Some where in the posts there was something about 20 year old engines not being supported any more.

I.e. a boat with a VP Tamd73 engine is a liability waiting to happen.

Also, if I were in the market to buy a second hand 10 year old boat, then I will avoid Volvo engines. As it will be unsaleable due to unmaintainable engines 10 years later.

 

[petem]

It is not. And there is no indication that it is ever going to happen. Some where in the posts there was something about 20 year old engines not being supported any more.

That was speculation, not the official VP position. As VolvoPaul says, we don't actually know the current position. For all we know, the ECU's are now back in stock.

Whatever engines you run, there is the risk of components becoming obsolete.

In fact, even propellers can have a 2-3 month lead time which is enough to ruin anyone's season.

 

[andy59]

This is the response from VP in the summer when i asked about availability .

Hi Andy, We apologise for the inconvenience this issue with the EDC's has caused you and would like to give you some background to the problem which has been escalated and is top priority within Volvo Penta. Volvo Penta commits to supporting the market with high availability even after an engines end of life production. Unfortunately, the global stock we had has been used up. Due to an increased customer demand on EDC2 modules, we have initiated a project to restart the production but the situation is very complex with some critical electronic components being made obsolete. As we are in the phase of testing prototypes and establishing a back to back procurement channel for all committed volumes, however we cannot give you a confirmed delivery date at this stage as we are awaiting final confirmation from our sub suppliers. Do you have an EDC module on order? If you could please provide us with the part number of your unit we can look into the possibility of testing this for reprogramming in the meantime, otherwise we will have to wait for the units to become available. As previously mentioned in our comments we will have staff available on the stand at Southampton for you to be able to discuss this matter further if required. Thank you for your understanding and once again we are truly sorry for the inconvenience. Kind Regards Volvo Penta UK & Ireland

 

[petem]

This is the response from VP in the summer when i asked about availability .

Hi Andy, We apologise for the inconvenience this issue with the EDC's has caused you and would like to give you some background to the problem which has been escalated and is top priority within Volvo Penta. Volvo Penta commits to supporting the market with high availability even after an engines end of life production. Unfortunately, the global stock we had has been used up. Due to an increased customer demand on EDC2 modules, we have initiated a project to restart the production but the situation is very complex with some critical electronic components being made obsolete. As we are in the phase of testing prototypes and establishing a back to back procurement channel for all committed volumes, however we cannot give you a confirmed delivery date at this stage as we are awaiting final confirmation from our sub suppliers. Do you have an EDC module on order? If you could please provide us with the part number of your unit we can look into the possibility of testing this for reprogramming in the meantime, otherwise we will have to wait for the units to become available. As previously mentioned in our comments we will have staff available on the stand at Southampton for you to be able to discuss this matter further if required. Thank you for your understanding and once again we are truly sorry for the inconvenience. Kind Regards Volvo Penta UK & Ireland

Thanks Andy. Perhaps you could chase them for an update?

Incidentally, considering parts supply is a major revenue stream for VP, I see no reason for them to lie. It's not like those customers who have been let down will buy a brand new Volvo replacement engine.

 

[westernman]

Thanks Andy. Perhaps you could chase them for an update?

Incidentally, considering parts supply is a major revenue stream for VP, I see no reason for them to lie. It's not like those customers who have been let down will buy a brand new Volvo replacement engine.

The problem is not financially interesting enough for them to really get their finger out and resolve the problem. There are many ways to solve the problem and which do not involve having to source obsolete electronic parts (e.g. new model of ECU, possibly third party, programmed for the engine).

The people who have ECU problems on 20 year old engines are not a huge market. VP's priorities are selling new engines and it would seem not to be in supporting a few old engines with parts. The people who have 20 year old engines are typically people who bought the boat second hand and whose next boat they will buy second hand as well. I.e. they are not the ones who will ever choose the engine manufacturer.

Which means if you are in the market for a second hand boat, may be you should avoid anything with VP engines if you think the boat is likely to be still in your possession when it is more than 20 years old.

Other manufacturers seem to be more serious about long term part supplies. I have not seen on this forum anybody with difficulty getting parts for a 20 year old MAN, Cummins, Yanmar, Beta or whatever.

May be they just don't go wrong as often as VP, or may be they are dead easy to get rapidly fixed.

 

[petem]

The problem is not financially interesting enough for them to really get their finger out and resolve the problem. There are many ways to solve the problem and which do not involve having to source obsolete electronic parts (e.g. new model of ECU, possibly third party, programmed for the engine).

The people who have ECU problems on 20 year old engines are not a huge market. VP's priorities are selling new engines and it would seem not to be in supporting a few old engines with parts. The people who have 20 year old engines are typically people who bought the boat second hand and whose next boat they will buy second hand as well. I.e. they are not the ones who will ever choose the engine manufacturer.

Which means if you are in the market for a second hand boat, may be you should avoid anything with VP engines if you think the boat is likely to be still in your possession when it is more than 20 years old.

Other manufacturers seem to be more serious about long term part supplies. I have not seen on this forum anybody with difficulty getting parts for a 20 year old MAN, Cummins, Yanmar, Beta or whatever.

May be they just don't go wrong as often as VP, or may be they are dead easy to get rapidly fixed.

So are you saying that VP are lying? What motivation would they have for lying?

You're also wrong about VP's business model. VP have always sold their engines cheaply to manufacturers and have made their money selling parts. I know how much Fairline paid for the engines that went into my boat and they were incredibly cheap.

I don't deny that MAN, Cummins, Yanmar may be better made but we also hear less about their issues as they're in far fewer boats. I also believe their parts can be eye wateringly expensive and authorised agents, let alone independent specialists, are few and far between.

 

[westernman]

So are you saying that VP are lying? What motivation would they have for lying?

You're also wrong about VP's business model. VP have always sold their engines cheaply to manufacturers and have made their money selling parts. I know how much Fairline paid for the engines that went into my boat and they were incredibly cheap.

I don't deny that MAN, Cummins, Yanmar may be better made but we also hear less about their issues as they're in far fewer boats. I also believe their parts can be eye wateringly expensive and authorised agents, let alone independent specialists, are few and far between.

I have not accused them of lying anywhere.

I have accused them of not being at all motivated to solve the problems of a few 10's of people having issues with 20 year old ECUs.

A problem which you suggest is easy to fix by programming a new readily available ECU when you have the source code available for the old ECU.
If I have understood everything above, buy in cost of third party ECU $500, retail value once programmed for a TAMD73 $5000.

I have no idea about how well VP, MAN, Cummins, Yanmar or other engines are made relative to one another.
But a pleasure boat engine, if looked after, should essentially last forever.

 

[petem]

I have not accused them of lying anywhere.

I have accused them of not being at all motivated to solve the problems of a few 10's of people having issues with 20 year old ECUs.

A problem which you suggest is easy to fix by programming a new readily available ECU when you have the source code available for the old ECU.
If I have understood everything above, buy in cost of third party ECU $500, retail value once programmed for a TAMD73 $5000.

I have no idea about how well VP, MAN, Cummins, Yanmar or other engines are made relative to one another.
But a pleasure boat engine, if looked after, should essentially last forever.

So now we've gone to a massive issue that some people are making out, to one that might affect a few 10's of the 10,000 engines out there!

And boat engines don't last forever. Ultimately, they'll need a re-build and that requires bearings, piston rings, liners, gaskets, etc. Good luck finding those and someone to take on the re-build for an obscure MAN, Cummings, etc engine.

I'm not claiming that VP engines are the best engine out there. All I'm saying is that the ECU issue will be resolved in time. And there is something to be said for safety in numbers.

And anyone who thinks that running a MAN, Cummings or any other elderly engine is totally risk and hassle free may get an unpleasant surprise one day.

 

[westernman]

So now we've gone to a massive issue that some people are making out, to one that might affect a few 10's of the 10,000 engines out there!

And boat engines don't last forever. Ultimately, they'll need a re-build and that requires bearings, piston rings, liners, gaskets, etc. Good luck finding those and someone to take on the re-build for an obscure MAN, Cummings, etc engine.

I'm not claiming that VP engines are the best engine out there. All I'm saying is that the ECU issue will be resolved in time. And there is something to be said for safety in numbers.

And anyone who thinks that running a MAN, Cummings or any other elderly engine is totally risk and hassle free may get an unpleasant surprise one day.

I said pleasure boat engines. Which rarely do more than a hundred hours or so per year.
A properly serviced diesel engine should not need bearings, rings or anything before 10,000 hours or so. Pleasure boat engines rarely ever get used that much.

A fishing boat is a different matter. They will hit that figure in about 5-10 years. As will a truck cab.
A ferry considerably quicker.

This matter is over a year old. And it does not seem that Volvo are getting any closer to resolving the issue.
What do you expect some one to do who has been waiting on a Volvo part for over a year is going to do?

 

[petem]

What do you expect some one to do who has been waiting on a Volvo part for over a year is going to do?

As I said before, I'm not aware of anyone who currently has a boat that they're unable to use due to a broken ECU. And that's despite me being a member of three VP Facebook groups, a Sealine group, a Princess group, a Sunseeker group, multiple Fairline groups, most of which have thousands of members.

If they are then I suggest that they suck it up and accept that in the middle of a global pandemic shit happens. Hopefully, production will be resumed before next season if it hasn't already.

 

[vas]

If they are then I suggest that they suck it up and accept that in the middle of a global pandemic shit happens. Hopefully, production will be resumed before next season if it hasn't already.

Pete, you never cease to amaze me with your optimism ? but I have to admit thread is getting rather boring.
ah, Mega for 35quid??? that was a v.long time ago! wouldn't spend 2quid on that now. You can get much faster, smaller, cheaper microcontrollers for less than 20quid
you still need a couple of engines a couple of ppl and a couple of weeks to do it

good luck to all!

 

[petem]

Pete, you never cease to amaze me with your optimism ? but I have to admit thread is getting rather boring.

What do you mean it's getting boring!

But when people say stuff that's not true (like Volvo saying that they won't support engines > 20 years old) it needs to be corrected.

To me it's pretty simple, either VP will supply ECU's or someone else will come up with a solution. If you happen to have a failure before a solution is found then that's tough luck. What more is there to say!

 

[vas]

well I was hoping that thread will be in hibernation until a solution is available
yep, no need for a 400+ post thread to elaborate

 

[Sticky Fingers]

well I was hoping that thread will be in hibernation until a solution is available
yep, no need for a 400+ post thread to elaborate

Never stopped us before Vas What's more surprising is that it's stayed almost completely on topic... !

 

[Portofino]

That was speculation, not the official VP position. As VolvoPaul says, we don't actually know the current position. For all we know, the ECU's are now back in stock.

Whatever engines you run, there is the risk of components becoming obsolete.

In fact, even propellers can have a 2-3 month lead time which is enough to ruin anyone's season.

Unless your boat came with a spare set .

No prizes for guessing which builder

This part , not the elbow but the other bit at the bottom of the pic was over nighted from Germany .2003 obsolete motors btw .
Could have refinished the old / existing part but just fancied new .
T was last year while replacing exhausts .

That casting is unique to the 2876 .No idea how many left of what MAN do re legacy parts , but the marine is tiny compared to the plant , rail , bus , truck , generator markets for the i6- 12 L .
Thats the point the “ others “ have just dipped into marine using existing core blocks from other sectors .
Inc Cummins , CAT , MTU .DD
You claim VP are bigger but indeed when you delve deeper they have nothing behind them in terms of industrial clout / size .
Even in marine they stall @ 12 or is it now D13 L ??

There’s a thread on here about D9 cavitation damage = rebuild @ 400 hrs .

The “ others “ have the experience and back of house where with all to engineer that kinda stuff out , avoid the rabbit holes surrounding cavitation in large mass piston movements.
Indeed MAN and MTU sister Cos do ship engines up to hundreds of lites and thousands of hp with massive weights / forces = potential cavitation generating goings on .But they have tech centres and the good , the bad and yes ugly shared and only the good comes to market .

Take the D12 the sumps leak because the block webbing is insufficient and it basically twists cracking the pan gasket seal .
No amount of gasket or tightening up will prevent this .They just got it wrong at certain loads certain rpms .
Its no biggie , no show stopper just a D12 idiosyncrasy .Easily managed with the occasional wipe up of the drips .
Trucks don’t do it because they do not do 700-800 Hp out of the same block ….it’s a marine thing .

As far as dealer back up in the field the “others” are fine .
4 official MAN agents on the CdA and in Liguria one near me 30 miles away who travels charges travel time but they all do .
Thing is as Westerman says they turn up and can get parts over nighted .

I guess one thing occurred to me is the others just work inside the boat on the motors .In the sense they are not stretched technically having to plate spin with the motors , outdrives , pods , joystick + electrotwackery that links it all up all this VP stuff ??
just a thought.

Can’t imagine the world wide operation of MAN , CAT , MTU , Cummins , DD leaving folks stranded over a parts shortage .
Inc there tiny marine sections .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Let's see what VP come up with. If they officially announce end of support for these engines / ECU's then that's the time to consider developing an alternative. It would certainly make the job easier if VP would share the source code.
Pete

If Volvo do not want to do it the least and bare minimum they can do is let and help the after-market do the job. But they have to be fast about deciding what they want to do, since the time is ticking and we are already a year late. A year where to find an ECU is not easy. Since the promised 2021 fall production start apparently did not start.

If they do not then its time for shame and name, and a lot of marketing so people who buy a Volvo Penta engine boat should know that they have a time bomb of metal which lasts just over ten years.
Twenty years is false since Kad300 and Tamd75 where produced till end 2006.
Nice way to enter the bigger yacht market with the upcoming D16 of 1200/1400 hp knowing that after ten years your engine might be a piece of metal junk...
And if MBY is boater orientated that should support boat owners in this, not the advertisers as any other magazine who is worth its salt.

This is shameless to the maximum since I can find parts of Man engines from the eighties, and GM-Detroit from the 60s.

 

[Portofino]

If Volvo do not want to do it the least and bare minimum they can do is let and help the after-market do the job. But they have to be fast about deciding what they want to do, since the time is ticking and we are already a year late. A year where to find an ECU is not easy. Since the promised 2021 fall production start apparently did not start.

If they do not then its time for shame and name, and a lot of marketing so people who buy a Volvo Penta engine boat should know that they have a time bomb of metal which lasts just over ten years.
Twenty years is false since Kad300 and Tamd75 where produced till end 2006.
Nice way to enter the bigger yacht market with the upcoming D16 of 1200/1400 hp knowing that after ten years your engine might be a piece of metal junk...
And if MBY is boater orientated that should support boat owners in this, not the advertisers as any other magazine who is worth its salt.

This is shameless to the maximum since I can find parts of Man engines from the eighties, and GM-Detroit from the 60s.

Well said .
Its what I see and hear around Italian marinas .Full support of old motors in old boats .