Volvo TAMD 73/74 and 75 ECU - Cause for concern?

[Portofino]

Boats with MAN diesels tend not to be mass market.
VP engines definately are.
Comparing a Range Rover with a MG or Dacia ?

MAN is a typical example , there’s MTU , FPT , CAT who also remote mount the control boxes leaving the contents dry inside , possibly Cummins?
The sum of those numbers wise probably exceeds VP s .

But yes I get your low manufacture time / low instal time for the vp outdrive packages , just drop the whole unit in and bolt it up the outdrive , I can see historically why they went down that route having arrived at the fork at the road = self containment / quick fit board room decision approach .

But this thread was started by a VP none legged / podded engine the 74 presume on shafts ……our favourites

Aside VP portfolio of electrotwackery surly with pods / IPS and other joysticks must be the largest amongst the motor manufacturers……..they are up to there neck in gizmos.
So they should be right up there in theory engineering out potential issues , knowledgeable on electrotwackery, the whole gamut .Design , supply chain , quantity, parts , mounting etc etc inc legacy support .

Michelin Eg still manufacture tyres from the 60 s 70:s 80:s etc they still do small production runs every now and again to support what are now classic cars that choose them as OEM in the day .
You know keep the moulds , interrupt other production etc etc .Sure they cost it out .
But the point is they do not shrug there shoulders .

I only know detail about MAN but know they stock a huge parts inventory and that’s kinda part of the appeal the aftermarket back up , legacy parts .A lot of others similarly do the same .

20 yrs to stop supply is too short imho , it’s what’s this threads about .

As I mentioned before really responsible manufacturers like say Ferrari allow , licence 3 rd parties to remanufacture stuff that for economic or logistical reasons they cease to carry . They is done in a timely smooth manner so the end users are not left high and dry .
Indeed advances in tech / materials often means the aftermarket part say a suspension bush from 2020 is better , last longer than the OEM 60s/ 70:s tech .
Its a win win .

Volvo P should as said previously on here smoothly transitioned over to a alternative supplier with inho up grades .
Maybe nowadays there’s no need for potting compound , better insulation , better components etc .
At least retained the title to the tech the outsourced Co was manufacturing for them .

The excuse if I understand this thread is the outsourcer has voluntarily decided to cease production ( albeit temporarily we hope ?) and VP seem like a rabbit trapped in the headlights .

If someone releases the programs, then any generic ECU motor tuner could replicate it .
Again in the car world , the tuning guys are modding and re manufacturing ECU s all the time .As well as soft ware re flashing .


Sorry I do not buy your mass market excuse .

 

[jon and michie]

Again Agreed - And why use potting compound when on offshore installations an e.x. rated junction box for electrics which are sealed and water proof are commonly used

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

U would not run which is mass market or not. Current sales of bigger boats are as much if not more to smaller ones.
Princess just makes 12 V40 a year, and has 60 orders for the new 72. The later is powered by Man, the first by Volvo.

Also Volvo lost a lot of sales to outboards in the last decade under the 15 meter size.
Yes they did gain a lot ground with IPS and that 14 to 20 meter size.
So I am not so sure who is mass market or not.

Volvo will launch a new high power D16 in 2022 or 23, so it will be interesting what happens on the upper side.

 

[petem]

I thought we'd covered all of this before....

The ECU is mounted on top of the fuel filter to get some cooling from the fuel.

As it stands, VP have committed to manufacturing another batch of ECU's but this has been hampered by the global shortage of chips.

It would be possible to replace the ECU with semi-custom ECU but you can't just use any off the shelf programmable ECU. Realistically, nobody is going to do this whilst VP are still planning to resume supply.

Another option would be to convert the engines to a mechanical fuel injection system. People have done this so it is doable.

 

[Portofino]

Fuel warms up , well mind does with use .Something along the lines 80;% is returned .
Some manufacturers not all , if for them turns out a power sapping issue fit fuel coolers but it’s still warm , just not quite as hot .

The tanks on my boat act as massive oil storage heat radiators after long runs .

Wonder what if there is any effect of thermal stress on the potting compound .Hmm ? Organic and to a lesser extent inorganic compounds in my experience tend to degenerate with time and thermal cycles in 9/10 just accelerates this .

 

[petem]

Fuel warms up , well mind does with use .Something along the lines 80;% is returned .
Some manufacturers not all , if for them turns out a power sapping issue fit fuel coolers but it’s still warm , just not quite as hot .

The tanks on my boat act as massive oil storage heat radiators after long runs .

Wonder what if there is any effect of thermal stress on the potting compound .Hmm ? Organic and to a lesser extent inorganic compounds in my experience tend to degenerate with time and thermal cycles in 9/10 just accelerates this .

KAD engines don't return much fuel (less than 20% IIRC). I believe it's only later common rail diesel engines that return large amounts of fuel.

The potting compound isn't a cause IMO. The biggest shame is that they used an anti tamper semi-rigid compound. If they'd have used a silicone compound it could be removed giving access to replace a bad solder / blown capacitor / resistor.

 

[Portofino]

KAD engines don't return much fuel (less than 20% IIRC). I believe it's only later common rail diesel engines that return large amounts of fuel.

The potting compound isn't a cause IMO. The biggest shame is that they used an anti tamper semi-rigid compound. If they'd have used a silicone compound it could be removed giving access to replace a bad solder / blown capacitor / resistor.

Heat soak isn’t healthy .
When running ( excluding exhaust ) I can place my hand on any part of my engines .
20 mins after shut down = heat soak the iron warms up because the cooling sides stopped .
Still warm in the morning when the air is cool !

The other manufacturers ECU s don’t blow( above the odd one so small a number to be insignificant) and ps don’t throw the numbers game card .As said the sum of the “ others “ both sides of the pond blows VP numbers into the weeds .
Aside the others as said have a proper legacy parts inventory.

Vp have done some legacy , stock maths once upon a time not denying that .But the throughput has exceeded the stocking levels far too quickly.In other words far too many have knackered far too prematurely.

They seem to have kept on top of rusty elbow , riser , and blown turbo inventories.but I understand lost the KAD 300 rocker gasket , and simply advise squirt gunk into the grove , press and wait ?

As said the parts legacy in mech manufacturing machines , it’s is important it’s consistent and meets the market demands with no gaps !

 

[petem]

Heat soak isn’t healthy .
When running ( excluding exhaust ) I can place my hand on any part of my engines .
20 mins after shut down = heat soak the iron warms up because the cooling sides stopped .
Still warm in the morning when the air is cool !

The other manufacturers ECU s don’t blow( above the odd one so small a number to be insignificant) and ps don’t throw the numbers game card .As said the sum of the “ others “ both sides of the pond blows VP numbers into the weeds .
Aside the others as said have a proper legacy parts inventory.

Vp have done some legacy , stock maths once upon a time not denying that .But the throughput has exceeded the stocking levels far too quickly.In other words far too many have knackered far too prematurely.

They seem to have kept on top of rusty elbow , riser , and blown turbo inventories.but I understand lost the KAD 300 rocker gasket , and simply advise squirt gunk into the grove , press and wait ?

As said the parts legacy in mech manufacturing machines , it’s is important it’s consistent and meets the market demands with no gaps !

Have a look at the VP Facebook groups. There's only the odd person reporting a failed ECU so it's nowhere as common as occurrence as people seem to be making out.

As for VP and stock levels, they did have some stock but this has been exhausted before replacement ECU's could be re-manufactured. All down to Covid.

Ref rocker cover gaskets, these would be easy for VP to have made. I can only assume that they feel a squirt of gunk is sufficient. I'm not aware that this solution is causing issues if the procedure is correctly followed.

 

[DavidJ]

They seem to have kept on top of rusty elbow , riser , and blown turbo inventories

Thank you China and Borg Warner

 

[Portofino]

Thank you China and Borg Warner

Pitty you can’t say the same for Nira , the suby commissioned by VP for the elusive part .

Anyhow if you guys are content with VP s handling of legacy stock , that’s the main thing as I have zero skin in this game .

 

[petem]

Pitty you can’t say the same for Nira , the suby commissioned by VP for the elusive part .

Are you not aware of the global chip shortage?

I was talking to my SiL yesterday. Minimum lead time on new BMW's is now 12 months due to chip shortages. If BMW can't get chips for new vehicles then I doubt Nira/VP will be very close to the front of the queue for chips to fix old VP engines.

 

[hinch]

just buy an off the shelf stand alone ecu aem/emerald/dta something like that and get a tuner to program it for you these engines are that basic that its hardly going to be a trouble to a good tuner.

 

[petem]

just buy an off the shelf stand alone ecu aem/emerald/dta something like that and get a tuner to program it for you these engines are that basic that its hardly going to be a trouble to a good tuner.

Sorry, but that's woefully underestimating the complexity of this.

It's not rocket science but these engines are quite unusual as they're mechanical diesel engines with an electronically governed fuel pump. As well as the basic mapping to get it running you also have to control the gear shifting, the supercharger, take into account the data that the sensors are sending (fuel temperature, RPM, boost, first injector timing, etc) plus build in all of the error codes, limp modes, the interface with the control panel, etc, etc. And when you've reverse engineered all of that you need to find someone with an engine / boat to test it all on.

 

[Portofino]

Are you not aware of the global chip shortage?

I was talking to my SiL yesterday. Minimum lead time on new BMW's is now 12 months due to chip shortages. If BMW can't get chips for new vehicles then I doubt Nira/VP will be very close to the front of the queue for chips to fix old VP engines.

The chip thing is a dust bin excuse .This calamity predates this .
BMW for-courts , and every car dealership I have seen been into last week has stock .ie no empty showrooms .
Sure one built to your exacting spec might have a long lead time but I bet if I walked into a BMW showroom with an hour I could drive away with brand new car .
In other words still maintain mobility , not be left stranded car less .

 

[hinch]

Sorry, but that's woefully underestimating the complexity of this.

It's not rocket science but these engines are quite unusual as they're mechanical diesel engines with an electronically governed fuel pump. As well as the basic mapping to get it running you also have to control the gear shifting, the supercharger, take into account the data that the sensors are sending (fuel temperature, RPM, boost, first injector timing, etc) plus build in all of the error codes, limp modes, the interface with the control panel, etc, etc. And when you've reverse engineered all of that you need to find someone with an engine / boat to test it all on.

respectfully massively disagree here as an ECU engineer myself its not a big job at all there's nothing complicated about the engines in the slightest infact they're simplier than most mid 90's ecu driven road car engines.

 

[DavidJ]

The ECU procurement has clearly moved on a bit since I last touched this. Have VP given the task to Nira. Who are they?

 

[petem]

The chip thing is a dust bin excuse .This calamity predates this .
BMW for-courts , and every car dealership I have seen been into last week has stock .ie no empty showrooms .
Sure one built to your exacting spec might have a long lead time but I bet if I walked into a BMW showroom with an hour I could drive away with brand new car .
In other words still maintain mobility , not be left stranded car less .

They were still supplying ECU's in the first quarter of last year. This thread was started in November 2020.

 

[petem]

The ECU procurement has clearly moved on a bit since I last touched this. Have VP given the task to Nira. Who are they?

They're the original supplier of the ECU's.

 

[petem]

respectfully massively disagree here as an ECU engineer myself its not a big job at all there's nothing complicated about the engines in the slightest infact they're simplier than most mid 90's ecu driven road car engines.

OK then, how many hours work do you think it would take to program and test an ECU (including all of the feeds and controls that I mentioned above)?

Can you post a link to a suitable ECU?

 

[Portofino]

The ECUs are failing faster , have failed enough to dry up all the legacy stock .
If Nira say were to ever do a run in a timely manor of X units to restock WW distribution centres then due to the nature of the failure ( yet to be determined ) it’s now at a rate of X + 20 % then the selves empty .
If the following year it’s X + 30 % and once any hinderances like chip supply are behind them the X number will never be enough.

Age works against this part it accelerates it’s demise .Not saying there will be an avalanche but saying the numbers will increase each decade .

Partly Nira s cease of production and partly VPs allowing them , and partly the increase rate of failure resulting in cleaning out the existing stock once words out of availability.