UK to AUS what boat?

[alant]

I beg to differ. If you can carry a reasonble emergency supply of water in cans then with a watermaker you make water regularly on passage. A big watermaker can easily make over 100 litres in an hour. Keep the tanks full. If the watermaker fails you have a full tank plus an emergency store of canned water. We do this and with an 800 litre tank have an abundant supply of water. Showers every day we carry enough spares to fix almost everything on the watermaker and it can either run from the generator or from the inverter with the engine running

Assumes watermaker works.
I have had them let salt thru, enough to ruin a nice cuppa.

 

[geem]

Assumes watermaker works.
I have had them let salt thru, enough to ruin a nice cuppa.

Multiple pressure vessels and membranes. You can isolate the faulty one. Its no big deal. Reduced output once you lose one but, hey, still making water

 

[Javelin]

There's a field out back that I can cross in our Fabia or even in my daughters Clio but the fact remains a Land Rover would give me far more margin for error.

I have around 38k sea miles, mostly deliveries, in a wide range of yachts and so naturally when asked for advice my past experience will flavour my views.
Couple that to my time repairing and maintaining boats, which adds a little more seasoning.

The simple comparison in this case was based on experience delivering a Southerly 42RST in a blow compared to an Oyster 435 and the fact that we happened to have both yachts here at the yard.
In the end it was immaterial as the southerly was out due to headroom so additional comparisons weren't required.
Not that the Oyster is perfect either in my eyes as the cockpit is quite exposed and high and you essentially have to leave the cockpit to get from behind the wheel, not fun at 03:00 in the morning even clipped on.
Also if short handed the rig/sheet loads and physical power and weight of sails of most yachts over 40' when things go wrong would certainly push my physical abilities to the limit in heavy airs.
You need at least 8knts of wind before she starts to sail and a number of other niggles.

We have a client who has circumnavigated in a standard First 40.7 with no wind steering gear, just an armful of tiller pilots but that doesn't mean that there are not more comfortable yachts to do the trip on.
I also have a friend who has circumnavigated in the sister ship to my 3/4 tonner and whilst I have full confidence in the Kevlar build, keel stepped rig etc, I'm dammed sure I wouldn't want to do it in my boat even though its been proved that I could if I wanted.

Newer builds where the technique is to bond the deck to the hull using paste where the only physical attachment is self tapping screws through the toe rail as there isn't access to use bolts let alone glass, does not fill me with confidence when bouncing around on the Southern ocean.

 

[geem]

There's a field out back that I can cross in our Fabia or even in my daughters Clio but the fact remains a Land Rover would give me far more margin for error.

I have around 38k sea miles, mostly deliveries, in a wide range of yachts and so naturally when asked for advice my past experience will flavour my views.
Couple that to my time repairing and maintaining boats, which adds a little more seasoning.

The simple comparison in this case was based on experience delivering a Southerly 42RST in a blow compared to an Oyster 435 and the fact that we happened to have both yachts here at the yard.
In the end it was immaterial as the southerly was out due to headroom so additional comparisons weren't required.
Not that the Oyster is perfect either in my eyes as the cockpit is quite exposed and high and you essentially have to leave the cockpit to get from behind the wheel, not fun at 03:00 in the morning even clipped on.
Also if short handed the rig/sheet loads and physical power and weight of sails of most yachts over 40' when things go wrong would certainly push my physical abilities to the limit in heavy airs.
You need at least 8knts of wind before she starts to sail and a number of other niggles.

We have a client who has circumnavigated in a standard First 40.7 with no wind steering gear, just an armful of tiller pilots but that doesn't mean that there are not more comfortable yachts to do the trip on.
I also have a friend who has circumnavigated in the sister ship to my 3/4 tonner and whilst I have full confidence in the Kevlar build, keel stepped rig etc, I'm dammed sure I wouldn't want to do it in my boat even though its been proved that I could if I wanted.

Newer builds where the technique is to bond the deck to the hull using paste where the only physical attachment is self tapping screws through the toe rail as there isn't access to use bolts let alone glass, does not fill me with confidence when bouncing around on the Southern ocean.

+1

 

[[163233]]

Newer builds where the technique is to bond the deck to the hull using paste where the only physical attachment is self tapping screws through the toe rail as there isn't access to use bolts let alone glass, does not fill me with confidence when bouncing around on the Southern ocean.

Have many modern production boats been lost from failures of the deck to hull bonding?

 

[alant]

Have many modern production boats been lost from failures of the deck to hull bonding?

Fighter jets have their wings bonded on with glue apparently, not too many of those falling off.

 

[Ric]

+1

I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about your impressions of the Southerly 42RST in a blow. I have been lead to believe that Southerlies are fairly comfortable and manageable in bad weather.

 

[geem]

I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about your impressions of the Southerly 42RST in a blow. I have been lead to believe that Southerlies are fairly comfortable and manageable in bad weather.

Ask Javelin

 

[Barbican]

Ask Javelin

Or ask distant shores!

https://www.distantshores.ca/about-us/the-boats/southerly-42/

 

[Heckler]

Ask Javelin

There were two newish Southerlies in Pwllheli when we were there. Roy noticed and pointed it out to us. Both had developed gel coat crazing around the chain plate areas.
Stu

 

[Tranona]

Here we go again Tranoma. You have never crossed an ocean but you have lots to say about it. I have said it before and I will say it again not for your benefit but for the benefit of others reading this. MOST people who sail oceans don't sail in modern flat bottom lightly ballasted yachts. The Ocean Cruising Club 2500 members boat list has very few Bavs, Jens, Bens. It's a fact. You will always find people that will choose a light mass produced boat for ocean sailing as they are cheap but they are not the majority of boats out there sailing oceans.

Sometimes I wonder if you wilfully misunderstand what I write, or don't even bother to read it at all before telling me I am wrong. So I will give it one more go.

First I do not disagree with most of what you say about the merits and advantages of the type of boat that you advocate, nor that many others also prefer to do their ocean sailing in a similar style. Where we part company is that neither the boats, style of sailing, nor the people have a monopoly on the pastime. That is many other people do not agree with your choice. The 2500 members of the OCC are just a small subset of the ocean sailing population who seem to have a common interest in a particular style. They are neither a majority, nor more importantly the arbiters of what is best.

Why is that? Simply because times have changed, and the type of boat being built now is very different (at least the "affordable" ones) and many people are choosing them for ocean cruising. Just as an example over 25% of the ARC entrants come from the 4 main production builders. Don't give me the guff that they are not "proper" and doing the ARC is not real ocean sailing. The point is most of the boats go on sailing elsewhere and survive, including the odd spot of heavy weather if they meet it. They (and all the others who follow a different style from you) are just sub sets of a very diverse population - so why are you ignoring them, or even worse saying they have got it wrong?

If you remove your blinkers and look at what is really going on you will find that modern boats make perfectly satisfactory ocean cruisers, but perhaps for people who value different things from you. As I have said many times in the past this trend will only continue upwards as the supply of viable older boats shrinks and new boats improve even further.

The important thing for anybody looking to buy a boat for long distance cruising is to keep an open mind and recognise that there are many styles of cruising and therefore a wide choice of boats.

 

[geem]

Sometimes I wonder if you wilfully misunderstand what I write, or don't even bother to read it at all before telling me I am wrong. So I will give it one more go.

First I do not disagree with most of what you say about the merits and advantages of the type of boat that you advocate, nor that many others also prefer to do their ocean sailing in a similar style. Where we part company is that neither the boats, style of sailing, nor the people have a monopoly on the pastime. That is many other people do not agree with your choice. The 2500 members of the OCC are just a small subset of the ocean sailing population who seem to have a common interest in a particular style. They are neither a majority, nor more importantly the arbiters of what is best.

Why is that? Simply because times have changed, and the type of boat being built now is very different (at least the "affordable" ones) and many people are choosing them for ocean cruising. Just as an example over 25% of the ARC entrants come from the 4 main production builders. Don't give me the guff that they are not "proper" and doing the ARC is not real ocean sailing. The point is most of the boats go on sailing elsewhere and survive, including the odd spot of heavy weather if they meet it. They (and all the others who follow a different style from you) are just sub sets of a very diverse population - so why are you ignoring them, or even worse saying they have got it wrong?

If you remove your blinkers and look at what is really going on you will find that modern boats make perfectly satisfactory ocean cruisers, but perhaps for people who value different things from you. As I have said many times in the past this trend will only continue upwards as the supply of viable older boats shrinks and new boats improve even further.

The important thing for anybody looking to buy a boat for long distance cruising is to keep an open mind and recognise that there are many styles of cruising and therefore a wide choice of boats.

The style of cruising the thread is about is sailing from the UK to Aus in a suitable boat. The point I am trying to make is that any boat can do it but if you want to do it in as much comfort as possible and as safe as possible there are better choices than an off the shelf mass produced designs that are predominately targeting at Med holidays and chartering. Of course these boats can cross oceans but if you intend to cross the Atlantic then the Pacific you might want to consider a boat with some of the attributes I posted. Its a hell of long journey to find half way there that you wish you were in a different boat. I know you dislike my reference to The Ocean Cruising Club but I refer to that organsiation as the members chose their boat and then qualified to be a member once they had completed a 1000 mile none stop passage. It isnt the other way around such that a bunch of weirdos choose old boats then form a club! They chose those boats for a reason. At a guess, 2200 out of the 2500 members chose something other than an AWB to sail an ocean passage. Their is nothing wrong with the 200 or so that chose an AWB but they are in the minority.
Dont dismiss older designs as inferior. Many of those designs were not built to a budget and many wouldnt be affordable today if you wished to replicate them as a new boat. Older boats can make excellent ocean sailing boats

 

[Javelin]

Have many modern production boats been lost from failures of the deck to hull bonding?

Not got a clue, would need to ask an insurer I guess.
What I do know is I've had to repair seven in 3 years.
If it hadn't been fixed they would have gone down.
One Sealine 50' I repaired had a small impact point but the deck become unattached from the hull for 6' forwards and nearly 10' aft.
Similar with a feeling 32 with around 6 or 7' where the hull and deck had separated.
The others were all smaller but without immediate rectification they could split like a banana.
The point is that this is a new design issue and something we don't see on older designs and build.

My issues with the Southerly were,
banging into a big seaway fighting the NW up the coast of Portugal and again in a 30knt NE trying to get round the corner from Brest.
The super wide stern pushes the bow down when she heels over and would round up given half a chance.
The autohelm was useless above 25knts with a big seaway but that I guess isn't the boats fault.
On big waves the keel would bang against the stops with a horrible clang.
On another occasion the bow buried and the anchor locker lid was flung open and bent the hinges.
We also broached a couple of times when the rudders simply lost grip running up the English Channel, the nose would bury and the stern would skid one way or the other.
Part of the problem here is because of the swept spreaders you cant let the boom out and on a long trade wind passage the spreader ends will play havoc with the mainsail.
The other issue with booms that don't go fully out is the preventer isn't as effective so you need to make sure its good and tight and strong.
I didn't like waves grabbing at my ankles when running in a breaking sea with the open backed cockpit and you really had to nail the kicker down hard to stop her rolling.
The Galley is too far forward so there is a lot of movement in a seaway and its a difficult area to brace yourself.
The Oyster 435 in comparison has a really superb galley position.
There are a lot of moldings that limit access to internal areas of the hull, having hit stuff in the past I worry about this especially in areas forward of the mast.
We had a few system issues like the furler not wanting to furl above 25knts and although the winches and clutches in the cockpit were nice, for some strange reason they had cheap, plain bearing blocks at the mast foot, just where you needed quality ball bearing blocks.
This is in common with a lot of modern yachts.
Put the classy expensive gear in the cockpit and the cheap and nasty up near the mast.

 

[Tranona]

The style of cruising the thread is about is sailing from the UK to Aus in a suitable boat. The point I am trying to make is that any boat can do it but if you want to do it in as much comfort as possible and as safe as possible there are better choices than an off the shelf mass produced designs that are predominately targeting at Med holidays and chartering. Of course these boats can cross oceans but if you intend to cross the Atlantic then the Pacific you might want to consider a boat with some of the attributes I posted. Its a hell of long journey to find half way there that you wish you were in a different boat. I know you dislike my reference to The Ocean Cruising Club but I refer to that organsiation as the members chose their boat and then qualified to be a member once they had completed a 1000 mile none stop passage. It isnt the other way around such that a bunch of weirdos choose old boats then form a club! They chose those boats for a reason. At a guess, 2200 out of the 2500 members chose something other than an AWB to sail an ocean passage. Their is nothing wrong with the 200 or so that chose an AWB but they are in the minority.
Dont dismiss older designs as inferior. Many of those designs were not built to a budget and many wouldnt be affordable today if you wished to replicate them as a new boat. Older boats can make excellent ocean sailing boats

You still do not seem to understand what I am saying. all you say is valid from one perspective, except your last comment in the last paragraph. Where have I ever said that old designs are inferior? there are good and bad designs from any period.

Why do you have difficulty in accepting that OCC members themselves are a self selecting minority and many more than the current number of members could qualify but choose not to join. Just because they adopt a particular approach does not make members superior to others who choose not to join.

Just to repeat many people have bought boats, including ex charter boats in the Med and sailed them across the Atlantic and Pacific to Australia and New Zealand. They, and many others from other parts of the world do not buy into your style - why do you ignore them?

You have made your point based on what you think is best, but as I keep on saying not everybody follows your approach and it is just daft to keep on saying "this is the way" when it is only "one way". It is no different from any other type of boating, people make their choices for their own reasons and we should celebrate that rather than ignoring it.

 

[Concerto]

Similar with a feeling 32 with around 6 or 7' where the hull and deck had separated.

I used to own a Feeling 286, which was damaged in the 1987 October hurricane. It was on a fore and aft mooring at the end of a mile long reach facing south west, but the oversized mooring lines cut through and she lay alongside another yacht for some hours. The result was the hull split on the main bulkhead (at the aft end of the coachroof) from the waterline and into the cockpit. Whilst she was being repaired, they found the hull lip had been badly trimmed and many of the rivets holding the deck/hull joint that went through the toe rail were only fixed to the deck - not the hull! This sloppy trimming may have been common in many factories at the time, and I wonder if it still applies today. It certainly would have caused a structural problem further in the future.

Your comments about the hull shape with full aft sections causing the bow with minimum buoyancy to dig in and round up, something I consider to be design flaw for heavy weather sailing. They are designed for Med sailing (or mainly motoring) with vast interior volume, not open water sailing.

Unfortunately this type of boat is virtually the only type produced by mass manufacturers. Potential customers love the accommodation, rather than their sailing ability. Yes, they can be sailed all over the world, but certainly would not be my choice. They might have better researched reinforcement than older boats, but do have potential weaknesses with a bonded moulded internal rib that can detach, foam sandwich topsides that can delaminate compared to solid lay up, not to mention bulkheads and furniture slotted in to the moulded rib that squeaks and groans as the boat moves in rough weather.

These boats are not designed for ocean sailing and in my opinion even EU categories of seaworthiness do not consider the ability of these boats to sail in heavy open ocean conditions. It comes down to whether you believe a yacht can withstand everything the wind and waves can throw at you. I have been in some extreme rough coastal weather, but not open ocean, and consider hull shape for sailing comfort should be at the top of the list of priorities. Many people will say most boats doing world cruises spend 90 percent of the their time at anchor, but in that other 10 per cent of time there will be a storm or two that cannot be avoided. That is a risk that people crossing oceans must realise as most coastal sailors (like most of us on this forum) will never have to make.

Talk of modern boats crossing the Atlantic in the ARC, or basically a convoy of boats using a trade wind at the most suitable time of year is not a significant amount of praise for modern hull designs. In a similar way during the 1970's a series of calm Fastnet Races made many complacent until the 1979 race. Then massive changes were made to make IOR race boats and all liferafts safer for subsequent years.

What GEEM said in post #34 is very sensible and I almost totally agree with him, except for an encapsulated keel. I have seen problems from repeated groundings (including drying out for scrubbing) that has worn away the bottom of the keel fiberglass, potentially causing a total loss of the internal ballast. An externally bolted keel is easy to check for leaks from the bolts and easy to remedy including changing the keel bolts. It is all about maintenance to prevent an accident.

These are some of my thoughts and hope Javelin can find the right boat for this couple.

 

[geem]

You still do not seem to understand what I am saying. all you say is valid from one perspective, except your last comment in the last paragraph. Where have I ever said that old designs are inferior? there are good and bad designs from any period.

Why do you have difficulty in accepting that OCC members themselves are a self selecting minority and many more than the current number of members could qualify but choose not to join. Just because they adopt a particular approach does not make members superior to others who choose not to join.

Just to repeat many people have bought boats, including ex charter boats in the Med and sailed them across the Atlantic and Pacific to Australia and New Zealand. They, and many others from other parts of the world do not buy into your style - why do you ignore them?

You have made your point based on what you think is best, but as I keep on saying not everybody follows your approach and it is just daft to keep on saying "this is the way" when it is only "one way". It is no different from any other type of boating, people make their choices for their own reasons and we should celebrate that rather than ignoring it.

OCC members are not a self selecting group. They are normal people from all walks of life. They are simply a group of people who have completed a qualifying ocean passage. They join a club AFTER they have ceossed an ocean. The club provides social interaction and support. It doesnt try in any way to infiluence boat choice of its members. I can see no reason why OCC members are not representitive of the wider ocean sailing community. It is why I refer to it. It is a representive selection of ocean sailors and the owners handbook provides good evidence of what boats are actually out there sailing oceans. If you can provide evidence to the contrary please let us know. To suggest I am saying this is my way and the only way is crazy. I am not pushing anything new just trying to give a balance view other than new boats are prefectly good for ocean sailing.
You push new boats as suitable for ocean sailing and suggest that they are superior as they are manufactured in modern mass produced factories. I disagree. Mass produced to fine tolerences get costs down not quality up. It makes for a repeatable quality but not necessarily high quality. You can see from other posters on this thread who own modern boats wouldnt choose to cross an ocean in theirs. Javelin has identified issues with modern hull designs that have needed substantial repair.
I maintain that any boat can cross an ocean. I have never said otherwise. I believe that some of the older designs would be more suitable. I dont believe that new mass produced designs are better unless you are commissioning a brand new boat for ocean sailing such as the recent posts by Noelex.

 

[Tim Good]

I can't comment on light weight production boats as I've never had one or sailed one on a long passage but having just returned from Norway, we saw many Dutch built boats which appear well built and very much capable of worst case conditions but also comfortable. Koopmans, Van de Stadt and plenty of custom built jobs, many from steel.

If I were to buy again I'd spend more time in Holland having a look about. I currently have a SeaStream 43 which I would say ticks the boxes also. Lloyds spec, semi long keel, cutter rig, heavy, water tight bulkheads and so forth. Plenty of similar solidly built boats around in the UK like this especially if you are going to refit.

For ocean mods have added AIS, hydrovane, series drogue and polycarb storm windows. The latter two I'll probably never use.

 

[laika]

You push new boats as suitable for ocean sailing and suggest that they are superior as they are manufactured in modern mass produced factories. [...]
I maintain that any boat can cross an ocean. I have never said otherwise. I believe that some of the older designs would be more suitable.

Is this a case of arguing on the Internet when no disagreement actually exists? Tranona doesn't appear to be saying an AWB is optimal for high latitude / extended blue water cruising, he's saying the notion that you shouldn't cross an ocean in one is an overstatement. Curiously my delivery experience has lead me to the opposite conclusion to Javelin: that received wisdom is frequently an exaggeration.

The point about sailing on a single long trip is that we get to choose the time of year we go and our weather window to leave. It isn't racing in the southern ocean or even a bluewater lifestyle with indeterminate end date. As long as the boat isn't going to fall apart, some discomfort in unexpected bad weather is a reasonable risk, and is unpleasant weather "comfortable" in any boat?

I'm not sure anyone is really disagreeing about anything fundamental in this thread

OCC members are not a self selecting group. [...]. They are simply a group of people who have completed a qualifying ocean passage.

oh go on then I'll disagree with something. They're presumably people who regard being an ocean sailor as part of their identity given that they joined a club. Those of us who've crossed an ocean but regard it as events rather than a lifestyle probably don't think to join. To extend an earlier analogy, if you regard yourself as an "off-road driver" enough to join an off-road driving club you'll likely spend time discussing the "best" off-road vehicle on off-road forums and you'll buy a landrover so you can drive anywhere anytime. That's different from just having to get to the other side of a field where you can wait till a dry spell in summer and drive your clio across it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Where have I ever said that old designs are inferior? there are good and bad designs from any period.

Post #132, para 3 ; http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...s-MAB-and-Seaworthyness&p=6153010#post6153010

As to the latest designs and method of construction, such as the boat I now own, in my opinion it is far superior both to the earlier models of the same brand and light years ahead of boats built in the old cottage industry way.

 

[Heckler]

Post #132, para 3 ; http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...s-MAB-and-Seaworthyness&p=6153010#post6153010

Hee hee!
S