UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[nortada]

Re: Worst case scenario: Needing a visa for the Schengen area

As a frequent traveller to my boat in the Netherlands this website makes for fairly sober reading.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com

See (not hot linked):
Schengen Visa Types & Validity
Schengen Visa Fees
Visa Application Requirements

Can't see it working for me as a frequent traveller (as opposed to visiting for a full 90 days).

As is being investigated for elsewhere; would it be possible for you to get Dutch Residency (while retaining your British Residency)

Then, post Brexit, you should still be able to come and go as you wish.

 

[RAI]

Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.

This contains a few interesting aspects.

https://www.portugalproperty.com/buying/tax-regime-for-non-habitual-residents/
https://www.portugalproperty.com/buying/portuguese-systems/



Although the information is provided with aim of guiding people to buying property in Portugal, you can disregard the "buying" part and consider the administrative part regarding living, registering, etc. in Portugal.



​

 

[nortada]

Better Living in Portugal (BLiP) Exhibition Portimao Sat/Sun 13/14 Oct

http://betterlivinginportugal.com/index.php?lang=en

Understand the British Consul will be attending and as there is little doubt that Brexit will come up, we will go along and see what comes out.

 

[nortada]

Speaking to the British Consul?

I hope to speak with the British Consul in the near future.

Has anybody else had dealings with their British ambassador/consul over Brexit and the attitude of their host nation towards Brit Liveaboards?

Appreciate that Westminster is rather busy but now the period of ‘lost passports’ has peaked, the consul should have time on their hands.

Although they represent the Queen, Westminster may have instructed that they are not to discuss Brexit with the authorities in the host country - political purda and all that!

Hope to resolve this this coming weekend.

An additional thought, should I make the consul aware of this and the Anything Brexit forums?

Possibly Deleted User and others could be locked up for treason!

Don’t tell him your name Mike.:encouragement:

 

[JamesFrance]

Your new country will grant you, IIRC, six months grace with your UK licence before you must exchange for one of theirs.

This is certainly wrong, a French policeman issued my wife with a 90€ fine for using a UK license when resident for over 6 months but I was able to have it cancelled.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1758

 

[macd]

This is certainly wrong, a French policeman issued my wife with a 90€ fine for using a UK license when resident for over 6 months but I was able to have it cancelled.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1758

You're right that unless a licence is lost, expires, a traffic offence committed, or a few other cases, it is not necessary to exchange EU licences.
However, the way this is administered in practice seems to vary from country to country. Some state six months "grace", other two years. In Italy you will struggle to encounter a traffic policeman who does not believe you should exchange for an Italian licence the instant you become resident.
However (Mk2 ), with a UK licence it is an offence not to notify change of address. If you make such a notification for an address outside the UK, you'll receive your licence back along with a note stating you must exchange for a licence in your new country.

Any of those issues are relatively easy to live with. What may be much more problematic is that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it may not be possible to gain an EU licence by exchange: a test may need to be passed in the new country. In some states tests can be arranged in the applicant's native language. In others (such as Italy), not. It therefore seems to me sensible to exchange licences sooner rather than later: there's nothing to be lost and possibly much to be gained.

 

[Graham376]

...It therefore seems to me sensible to exchange licences sooner rather than later: there's nothing to be lost and possibly much to be gained.

OK as long as you don't also have UK residence and want to drive there as a "foreign" license is only good for 3 months, after which it has to be changed back to a UK one.

 

[macd]

OK as long as you don't also have UK residence and want to drive there as a "foreign" license is only good for 3 months, after which it has to be changed back to a UK one.

Of course: everything is in the detail of each case.

It's also possible that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit and the loss of parity between UK and EU27 licences, then there will be no reason one can't have a UK and, say, a Greek one. Most Brits resident resident there will be eligible for a UK licence simply for the asking, assuming they've held one before; good luck with passing a Greek test if you don't already hold such a licence on Brexit day :ambivalence:

 

[RAI]

Re: Worst case scenario: Needing a visa for the Schengen area

There may big differences in each nation regarding driving licenses and bigger differences regarding application/enforcement.
When first in Belgium, they took a photocopy of my British license and kept it in the Commune office. They told me I could show my British license if asked. Later, my sister found that my using her UK address for my license was illegal for us both, so I insisted on a Belgium replacement - no problems.
In the mean time, my German license, the old graue Lappen, has remained valid. I tried changing it for a European format one and was advised not to, by the licensing office. It seems my old paper one is pretty well indefinite validity, whereas the new plastic ones expire and need renewing. Anyway, they said, in Germany, it's all in the computer and a policeman would check the computer before believing anything. Also in that computer is a note that I also hold (held) a British license.
Back to being resident in Belgium, I discovered it was illegal for me to drive my own car, if it carries foreign registration plates.
So car registration is another pitfall for the unwary.

 

[Graham376]

Of course: everything is in the detail of each case.

It's also possible that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit and the loss of parity between UK and EU27 licences, then there will be no reason one can't have a UK and, say, a Greek one. Most Brits resident resident there will be eligible for a UK licence simply for the asking, assuming they've held one before; good luck with passing a Greek test if you don't already hold such a licence on Brexit day :ambivalence:

Many years ago I exchanged an International License (the type obtained from AA/RAC and needed for some countries) for a South African driving license and kept hold of my old type UK license.

I wonder if the same dodge would work now in an EU country?

 

[Roberto]

to gain an EU licence by exchange: a test may need to be passed in the new country. In some states tests can be arranged in the applicant's native language. In others (such as Italy), not. .

Mac I am sure by now you have realised that the Italian driving license is actually a license to kill, the test might be very simple just drive 5min in total disregard of traffic lights, bumping into old ladies crossing the streets while continuously honking and insulting everyone around you (all languages accepted).

 

[macd]

Mac I am sure by now you have realised that the Italian driving license is actually a license to kill, the test might be very simple just drive 5min in total disregard of traffic lights...

That is, of course, the abiding paradox, Roberto. Don't Italian sailors also need to pass a test? From observation, many have no sooner passed than forgotten all they learned. Others, of course, are are rather more skilled and thoughtful :encouragement:

 

[nortada]

Residencia In Portugal

As our signature block shows, we are now back in Portugal and as promised, have investigated getting Portuguese Residencia.

The facts:

To apply for Portuguese residencia you get a 4 paged dual language (Portuguese/English) form from the Camara (local council office).

Complete it and present yourself (with your passport) at the Camera (no need for a fiscal number). You will be charged €15 and leave with a residencia permit within the hour.

Provided you have a postal address in Portugal, the Camara will accept a marina berth as a residential address. The marina could be your postal address.

Your residencia permit is not proof of identity so unlike your passport, there is no need to have it on your person at all times.

Your residencia will last for 5 years; you then have to go to the local immigration authorities, who will replace your temporary, 5 year, residencia with life-long residencia.

At anytime you may renounce residencia by returning your permit to the local Camara.

Guys, a novelty on this forum, this is FACT - not speculation.

Now for the speculation and real questions, do we do it, what would Portuguese residencia do for us and are there any down-sides?

Before Brexit, what does it do - short answer - nothing! But you could forget about that 183 day rule.

Post Brexit, who knows, but I suggest it should mean you can come and go between Portugal and the UK as you wish and as there will be no need for visas, Schengen will not apply so having arrived in Portugal, as a Portugal Resident, you should be able to sail/travel at will to any of the Schengen countries.

Could be an answer to the fears held by many Boating Brits Abroad.

On the face of it, you could leave getting a residencia permit until after Brexit and current long stay non EU nationals (Americans) could also get Portuguese residencia? Because of Schengen, our American neighbour has just departed State Side for the next 90 days.

Possibly somebody else would like to explore other EU countries and report back on the options they discover?

Any thoughts?

 

[Graham376]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

Post Brexit, who knows, but I suggest it should mean you can come and go between Portugal and the UK as you wish and as there will be no need for visas, Schengen will not apply so having arrived in Portugal, as a Portugal Resident, you should be able to sail/travel at will to any of the Schengen countries.

Could be an answer to the fears held by many Boating Brits Abroad.

On the face of it, you could leave getting a residencia permit until after Brexit and current long stay non EU nationals (Americans) could also get Portuguese residencia? Because of Schengen, our American neighbour has just departed State Side for the next 90 days.


Any thoughts?

Glad your residence issue is sorted but, a couple of thoughts -

The consensus seems to be that having residence in one EU state will most likely not change the 90 days rule in the remainder.

The 5 year residence is granted to Citizens of the EU and, if applying after Brexit, UK citizens won't be in the EU so may then be treated differently.

 

[RAI]

If you register residence now, or maybe during the Brexit transition phase, you will be doing it with the current EU citizen conditions. After Brexit is complete, it would be under post Brexit /possibly non-EU citizen conditions. Are the conditions the same? (see expatica website.)

At the moment, the post Brexit freedom of movement conditions, for British expats, will be restricted to their EU country of residence. The UK is/was pressing for full freedom of movement for existing expats but the EU resisting. If that becomes the case, you might need a Schengen visa to visit other Schengen countries even with a residence in Portuguese.
When travelling, even into Portugal, I don't think your residence certificate will work as a travel document (a Belgium one doesn't, I tried). You will still need your British passport, with whatever restrictions it has now or post Brexit. So, if Brits will need to get Schengen visas post Brexit, you might need one too. Otherwise you could travel to Spain via Faro, say, where your Portuguese residence certificate carries no weight, if Spain requires a Schengen visa for Brits.
Hopefully, the Schengen visa will not be required but, I suspect like the Americans, the 90/180 day rule will apply for tourists.
However, the EU is likely to reciprocate whatever the UK chooses to apply to EU visitors entry and its hostile environment for immigrants.

 

[greeny]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

As our signature block shows, we are now back in Portugal and as promised, have investigated getting Portuguese Residencia.

The facts:

To apply for Portuguese residencia you get a 4 paged dual language (Portuguese/English) form from the Camara (local council office).

Complete it and present yourself (with your passport) at the Camera (no need for a fiscal number). You will be charged €15 and leave with a residencia permit within the hour.

Provided you have a postal address in Portugal, the Camara will accept a marina berth as a residential address. The marina could be your postal address.

Your residencia permit is not proof of identity so unlike your passport, there is no need to have it on your person at all times.

Your residencia will last for 5 years; you then have to go to the local immigration authorities, who will replace your temporary, 5 year, residencia with life-long residencia.

At anytime you may renounce residencia by returning your permit to the local Camara.

Guys, a novelty on this forum, this is FACT - not speculation.


Any thoughts?

Sorry Nortada, it may be how you've got your residencia where you are, but it definitely doesn't work that way in Portimao or Lagoa.

Where did you complete this process as you describe. Because I'll come there if i ever do it again with someone else. I completed mine 4 years ago and it was not as you describe. My wife is currently going through the same process and again it is not as you describe. We needed fiscal number, proof of income to show we will not be burden on the state, proof of address, statement by 2 local people who are on the electoral role and prepared to sign to say they know you and confirm you have lived there for at least 6 months. The process took more than 2 weeks to complete and has to go to Lisbon for confirmation before you get issued with your residencia document. Then you have to register your driving licence with the police in Faro (in the old days you had to submit it and apply for a portuguese one but not any more). Then you are not allowed to drive any vehicle that is not Portuguese registered. (a boat is classed as a vehicle here. mode of transport) It goes on..............as far as you wish to take it. Finances, tax etc etc. Portuguese EHIC. I've been there.

Can you tell me where you got residencia your way because i'll be going there next time.
Sorry to put a downer on something that sounds so simple but readers need to be aware that the authorities interpretation of the law can differ greatly between the local camaras.
I do appreciate the work your doing in trying to pull all this together and make sense of it but I doubt any of us will really know anything factual until after it has happened. All we can do is prepare for the worst and get whatever we can in preparation for it. Residencia being the first on the list for me.

 

[nortada]

An interesting take, with loads of supposition, speculation and conjecture.

Unlike in Anything Brexit, rather than the negative, in this thread we have tried to focus on fact and the way ahead.

If you register residence now, or maybe during the Brexit transition phase, you will be doing it with the current EU citizen conditions. After Brexit is complete, it would be under post Brexit /possibly non-EU citizen conditions. Are the conditions the same? (see expatica website.) As it is excellent with regards to Portugal, I have crawled all over this site!

Good point. Post Brexit, it could be very different/difficult for a Brit (then a non-EU citizen - alien?) to obtain a Portuguese Residence Permit (PRP).

Indeed, the application form for Portuguese Residencia is for EU citizens, aliens have to follow a far more costly, complicated procedure.

This is why there is such a strong argument for Brits, who want it, to get a PRP before 29 Mar 19.

At the moment, the post Brexit freedom of movement conditions, for British expats, will be restricted to their EU country of residence. (Conjecture - Link?).

The UK is/was pressing for full freedom of movement for existing expats but the EU resisting. If that becomes the case, you might need a Schengen visa to visit other Schengen countries even with a residence in Portuguese. Nothing to do with property in Portugal? But now you raise it, to get a PRP you have to have an accredited address in Portugal and an acceptable mail address. Surprisingly, it has now been established that a marina berth could meet both of these requirements.

When travelling, even into Portugal, I don't think your residence certificate will work as a travel document (a Belgium one doesn't, I tried). You will still need your British passport, with whatever restrictions it has now or post Brexit. Currently, in Portugal you do not need a travel document (Internal Visa a la the USSR or China). But in Portugal, you are required to carry ID, as Brits do not have an ID, they are supposed to carry their passports - post Brexit no change).

So, if Brits will need to get Schengen visas post Brexit, you might need one too. (But I would be a Portuguese Resident? The Irish (who, also, are not in Schengen do not) so why should I required a Schengen visa?)

Otherwise you could travel to Spain via Faro, say, where your Portuguese residence certificate carries no weight, if Spain requires a Schengen visa for Brits. I would be a Portuguese Resident travelling on a British passport so why would I need a Schengen visa, when my Irish and Portuguese friends do not? Especially, as we both know there are no border checks within the Schengen zone?

Hopefully, the Schengen visa will not be required but, I suspect like the Americans, the 90/180 day rule will apply for tourists. (A Brit with a PRP is not a tourist!)

However, the EU is likely to reciprocate whatever the UK chooses to apply to EU visitors entry and its hostile environment for immigrants. (Seem to recall the UK intends to honour all privileges given to those EU immigrants who arrived before Brexit. Hopefully we would receive similar courtesies.)

 

[greeny]

An interesting take, with loads of supposition, speculation and conjecture.

Unlike in Anything Brexit, rather than the negative, in this thread we have tried to focus on fact and the way ahead.

Agreed,
also do not confuse residency with citizenship when it comes to Shengen.

 

[nortada]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

Sorry Nortada, it may be how you've got your residencia where you are, but it definitely doesn't work that way in Portimao or Lagoa.

Where did you complete this process as you describe. Because I'll come there if i ever do it again with someone else. I completed mine 4 years ago and it was not as you describe. My wife is currently going through the same process and again it is not as you describe. We needed fiscal number, proof of income to show we will not be burden on the state, proof of address, statement by 2 local people who are on the electoral role and prepared to sign to say they know you and confirm you have lived there for at least 6 months. The process took more than 2 weeks to complete and has to go to Lisbon for confirmation before you get issued with your residencia document. Then you have to register your driving licence with the police in Faro (in the old days you had to submit it and apply for a portuguese one but not any more). Then you are not allowed to drive any vehicle that is not Portuguese registered. (a boat is classed as a vehicle here. mode of transport) It goes on..............as far as you wish to take it. Finances, tax etc etc. Portuguese EHIC. I've been there.

Can you tell me where you got residencia your way because i'll be going there next time.
Sorry to put a downer on something that sounds so simple but readers need to be aware that the authorities interpretation of the law can differ greatly between the local camaras.
I do appreciate the work your doing in trying to pull all this together and make sense of it but I doubt any of us will really know anything factual until after it has happened. All we can do is prepare for the worst and get whatever we can in preparation for it. Residencia being the first on the list for me.

As most are aware, I have carried out extensive research into obtaining Portuguese Residencia and #273 is the result of those investigations. For me the biggest revelation is that a Boating Brit (in a marina berth) should be able to get residencia.

Not so for on who lives on the hook!

I have not stated that I have actually got Portuguese Residencia.

Rather, I am trying, with brains better than mine, to evaluate the pros and cons and look to those souls with residencia to fill in the blanks.

Must admit, to me, it increasingly seem like a no brainer. If you can, get residencia.

 

[nortada]

Agreed,
also do not confuse residency with citizenship when it comes to Shengen.

I don't!