Tranona
Well-known member
Website is pretty rubbish, but follow Knowledge and Advice - Current Affairs-Brexit.
I cant' find it through "News" either.
I cant' find it through "News" either.
UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?
- Thread starter nortada
- Start date
macd
Active member
That's exactly what I did, and repeatedly got an "Error 502".
Hold on a mo': maybe Brexit is Error 502?
Tranona
Well-known member
Works for me.
nortada
Well-known member
Re: British Sailors Overseas, Brexit & the RYA.
No need for sorry, grateful for anything that lightens this topic. :encouragement:
No need for sorry, grateful for anything that lightens this topic. :encouragement:
nortada
Well-known member
Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6203491/EU-immigration-Britain-fall-80-cent-Brexit.html
On the assumption that the EU will apply the same policy on UK travellers, it is clear that that travel for Brits in the EU, post Brexit, could be very different.
However, Mrs May also stresses that EU nationals who are legally in the UK on Brexit Day (when ever that might be), will be able to remain with all their privileges; all 4 million of them. Logically, it would follow that the 1 million Brits, legally in the EU on Brexit Day, will also retain their privilege (although the EU has yet to confirm this).
To me this sends a very clear message, that if you have not already done so, select your country of choice and investigate getting a residence certificate before 29 March 2019.
Unfortunately, this might not resolve the problems of cruisers like Sailaboutvic.
But they could get a residence permit for an EU country of their choice and make it their
operating base. Then apply for 90 day visas to visit other EU countries.
Yes, a fad but at least an alternative to returning to a very cold UK winter.
Dropped to +1 here in Walton last night.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6203491/EU-immigration-Britain-fall-80-cent-Brexit.html
On the assumption that the EU will apply the same policy on UK travellers, it is clear that that travel for Brits in the EU, post Brexit, could be very different.
However, Mrs May also stresses that EU nationals who are legally in the UK on Brexit Day (when ever that might be), will be able to remain with all their privileges; all 4 million of them. Logically, it would follow that the 1 million Brits, legally in the EU on Brexit Day, will also retain their privilege (although the EU has yet to confirm this).
To me this sends a very clear message, that if you have not already done so, select your country of choice and investigate getting a residence certificate before 29 March 2019.
Unfortunately, this might not resolve the problems of cruisers like Sailaboutvic.
But they could get a residence permit for an EU country of their choice and make it their
operating base. Then apply for 90 day visas to visit other EU countries.
Yes, a fad but at least an alternative to returning to a very cold UK winter.
Dropped to +1 here in Walton last night.
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
I'm not sure I'd suggest the DM as a reliable source of information....
Your last point is what I've been saying for some time, though it's not necessary to obtain a residence permit. IMO as long as you are registered under EU rules as being in your chosen country for more than 90 days, and you have done everything else that country requires of you (obtaining tax numbers etc.) I don't believe there will be any problems in staying where you are post Brexit.
My advice to those who can choose a single country (which doesn't help cruising sailors I accept) is to ensure that you are fully visible to the authorities there and fully legal in respect of tax, registration, etc.
I'm not sure I'd suggest the DM as a reliable source of information....
Your last point is what I've been saying for some time, though it's not necessary to obtain a residence permit. IMO as long as you are registered under EU rules as being in your chosen country for more than 90 days, and you have done everything else that country requires of you (obtaining tax numbers etc.) I don't believe there will be any problems in staying where you are post Brexit.
My advice to those who can choose a single country (which doesn't help cruising sailors I accept) is to ensure that you are fully visible to the authorities there and fully legal in respect of tax, registration, etc.
nortada
Well-known member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
Honest, I only read the headline, Your Honour.
Even the DM would find it hard to distort that - or would they
I'm not sure I'd suggest the DM as a reliable source of information....
Honest, I only read the headline, Your Honour.
Even the DM would find it hard to distort that - or would they
nortada
Well-known member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
Agree as far as it goes but I suspect that, as is now under existing EU rules, you would not be allowed to stay in your county of choice for more than 183 days.
I am aware that in many countries, registration, the 90 and 183 day rules are ignored (they like the money you spend).
However, post Brexit, stricter application of these rules and Schengen will mean, unless you have a residence permit, you will be limited to 90 or 183 days per year in the country.
I suspect that provided you remain in in the Schengen Zone, the new situation may have little practical impact until you attempt to enter or leave the country.
This leads me to the view that post Brexit, a residence permit will become essential to those who wish to spend over 183 days in the country.
For shorter visits, the current visa situation, which should prevail may suffice.
As an aside, the report in the DM has now been validated on BBC news.
I'm not sure I'd suggest the DM as a reliable source of information....
Your last point is what I've been saying for some time, though it's not necessary to obtain a residence permit. IMO as long as you are registered under EU rules as being in your chosen country for more than 90 days, and you have done everything else that country requires of you (obtaining tax numbers etc.) I don't believe there will be any problems in staying where you are post Brexit.
My advice to those who can choose a single country (which doesn't help cruising sailors I accept) is to ensure that you are fully visible to the authorities there and fully legal in respect of tax, registration, etc.
Agree as far as it goes but I suspect that, as is now under existing EU rules, you would not be allowed to stay in your county of choice for more than 183 days.
I am aware that in many countries, registration, the 90 and 183 day rules are ignored (they like the money you spend).
However, post Brexit, stricter application of these rules and Schengen will mean, unless you have a residence permit, you will be limited to 90 or 183 days per year in the country.
I suspect that provided you remain in in the Schengen Zone, the new situation may have little practical impact until you attempt to enter or leave the country.
This leads me to the view that post Brexit, a residence permit will become essential to those who wish to spend over 183 days in the country.
For shorter visits, the current visa situation, which should prevail may suffice.
As an aside, the report in the DM has now been validated on BBC news.
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macd
Active member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
Is there a degree of conflation going on here?
Registration (of an EU national living >3 months in another EU28 country) is not required by EU regulations, so there is no question of countries ignoring it. It is left to individual states to decide whether registration (and permits) is required. Equally, a non-working person claiming his/her right to stay for >3 months is expected to have appropriate means and medical cover, but there is no EU-wide requirement that they actually prove it.
Brexit notwithstanding, there is no limit on how long you can exercise your right of residence elsewhere in the EU. It's certainly not 183 days (unless by personal choice, for tax reasons). The "183 day" rule is actually no such thing so far as the EU is concerned. Individual countries have their own definitions of tax residence, which may or may not cite 183 days (which is often just convenient shorthand for a definition which can be much more complex). At any rate, it's fiscal issue more than a right-to-remain matter.
I heartily agree that this is no guarantee of the situation applying to UK nationals after next March, which is precisely why we recently gained formal residence. If the proposed transition period actually comes to pass, we'll have been over two years premature. We'll just have to endure the privations of Italian life
Is there a degree of conflation going on here?
Registration (of an EU national living >3 months in another EU28 country) is not required by EU regulations, so there is no question of countries ignoring it. It is left to individual states to decide whether registration (and permits) is required. Equally, a non-working person claiming his/her right to stay for >3 months is expected to have appropriate means and medical cover, but there is no EU-wide requirement that they actually prove it.
Brexit notwithstanding, there is no limit on how long you can exercise your right of residence elsewhere in the EU. It's certainly not 183 days (unless by personal choice, for tax reasons). The "183 day" rule is actually no such thing so far as the EU is concerned. Individual countries have their own definitions of tax residence, which may or may not cite 183 days (which is often just convenient shorthand for a definition which can be much more complex). At any rate, it's fiscal issue more than a right-to-remain matter.
I heartily agree that this is no guarantee of the situation applying to UK nationals after next March, which is precisely why we recently gained formal residence. If the proposed transition period actually comes to pass, we'll have been over two years premature. We'll just have to endure the privations of Italian life
Sailfree
Well-known member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
My experience in Portugal is that even US citizens are moving here but they need to also prove they have health insurance.
Documentation for residency is published on websites but it appears different areas enforce them differently. I cannot remember having to prove I was financially independent - perhaps I looked rich enough!
There is standard enforcement on foreign registered cars (even EU ones) and confiscate them if you abuse the 6 month only rule.
I think many fly below the radar in the EU if you can support yourself.
Obviously my experience is limited to Silver Coast Portugal and we have done afaik everything correctly and have residency and Non Habitual Residency which currently under dual taxation treaties allow you to live as a pensioner in Portugal tax free for 10yrs. Note money earned in any EU country usually has to be taxed in country it's earned so I declare rental income to HMRC in UK.
With ID cards i think it's harder to work illegally in EU countries than UK but I am sure many countries still have problems with a black economy.
My experience in Portugal is that even US citizens are moving here but they need to also prove they have health insurance.
Documentation for residency is published on websites but it appears different areas enforce them differently. I cannot remember having to prove I was financially independent - perhaps I looked rich enough!
There is standard enforcement on foreign registered cars (even EU ones) and confiscate them if you abuse the 6 month only rule.
I think many fly below the radar in the EU if you can support yourself.
Obviously my experience is limited to Silver Coast Portugal and we have done afaik everything correctly and have residency and Non Habitual Residency which currently under dual taxation treaties allow you to live as a pensioner in Portugal tax free for 10yrs. Note money earned in any EU country usually has to be taxed in country it's earned so I declare rental income to HMRC in UK.
With ID cards i think it's harder to work illegally in EU countries than UK but I am sure many countries still have problems with a black economy.
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nortada
Well-known member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
Increasingly, it appears that the biggest elephant in the room regarding obtaining a residence permit is proving you live in your host country.
This raises the question, "Has anybody successfully got a residence permit while permanently residing on a boat in a marina or even in an anchorage and where were you?"
Increasingly, it appears that the biggest elephant in the room regarding obtaining a residence permit is proving you live in your host country.
This raises the question, "Has anybody successfully got a residence permit while permanently residing on a boat in a marina or even in an anchorage and where were you?"
macd
Active member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
Sorry, that's a little misleading. There are no EU-wide rules for personal taxation liability. However, most EU countries, Portugal and UK included, expressly tax residents on all their world-wide income, wherever earned. However, most if not all also claim to tax domestically all rental income, wherever the beneficiary is resident. This is clearly oxymoronic. In most cases the impasse is cleared up by double taxation treaties. Very few things are universal amongst the UK's DT treaties, but taxing rental income domestically is one of them.
The expressed position for non-residents in EU countries is that only income earned in the non-resident country is taxed there, although this may also be treaty-modified, depending on type of income.
The UK has DT treaties with about two-thirds of the world's countries, including most of the EU27. Brexit should have no effect on them.
This page has the EU overview on personal taxation and links to member countries' tax rules: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/index_en.htm
Sorry, that's a little misleading. There are no EU-wide rules for personal taxation liability. However, most EU countries, Portugal and UK included, expressly tax residents on all their world-wide income, wherever earned. However, most if not all also claim to tax domestically all rental income, wherever the beneficiary is resident. This is clearly oxymoronic. In most cases the impasse is cleared up by double taxation treaties. Very few things are universal amongst the UK's DT treaties, but taxing rental income domestically is one of them.
The expressed position for non-residents in EU countries is that only income earned in the non-resident country is taxed there, although this may also be treaty-modified, depending on type of income.
The UK has DT treaties with about two-thirds of the world's countries, including most of the EU27. Brexit should have no effect on them.
This page has the EU overview on personal taxation and links to member countries' tax rules: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/index_en.htm
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macd
Active member
Re: Doing Nothing May Not Be The Best Option.
I wish I could answer that, and hope someone does. However, I have little doubt that it would be unlawful to deny freedom of movement rights to nomadic persons based solely on their lack of a fixed address. (Romanies spring to mind, as well as us lot.) But unless it's already been to the European Court, I fear the question's a little pressed for time.
I wish I could answer that, and hope someone does. However, I have little doubt that it would be unlawful to deny freedom of movement rights to nomadic persons based solely on their lack of a fixed address. (Romanies spring to mind, as well as us lot.) But unless it's already been to the European Court, I fear the question's a little pressed for time.
jordanbasset
Well-known member
Prior to Brexit we were seriously considering buying an Apartment in Javea, Spain and did some research. At that time prior to applying for a residence visa you needed to be officially registered with the Padrón Municipal (basically the local authority) and they required the following documents
a) Passport or recognised official identification.
b) N.I.E. / Residencia certificate
c) For home owners, the escritura (deeds) for the house and a latest receipt for IBI or AMJASA.
d) For renters, a valid rental contract (in Spanish).
e) If you live in a home without a rental contract (for example, the family holiday home that is not registered in your name), you will need to produce a signed letter giving permission to live in the house as well as a latest receipt for the address (IBI or AMJASA).
Unfortunately does not clarify if living in a marina with a full time contract qualifies or not
a) Passport or recognised official identification.
b) N.I.E. / Residencia certificate
c) For home owners, the escritura (deeds) for the house and a latest receipt for IBI or AMJASA.
d) For renters, a valid rental contract (in Spanish).
e) If you live in a home without a rental contract (for example, the family holiday home that is not registered in your name), you will need to produce a signed letter giving permission to live in the house as well as a latest receipt for the address (IBI or AMJASA).
Unfortunately does not clarify if living in a marina with a full time contract qualifies or not
nortada
Well-known member
Many thanks JB.
Very useful from a personal position.
Although we keep the boat in Portugal, a family home is in Spain but our names are not on the deeds.
As we would have to get a N.I.E. / Residencia certificate, not sure why we would go any further?
So, if the boat situation in Portugal turned difficult, we could apply for Spanish residency but still live on the boat in Portugal?
My only concerns would be; would we lose our British Nationality, passport and driving licence, boat registration, access to the NHS and what would be our tax situation?
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macd
Active member
1. The passport would be forfeit only if you lost British nationality. Unless you wished otherwise, that would only happen if you took the nationality of a country which prohibited dual nationality. It's unlikely you could take local nationality for at least five years, anyway.
2. You are not permitted to possess or renew a UK driving licence unless resident in the UK, although residence is not rigorously checked. Your new country will grant you, IIRC, six months grace with your UK licence before you must exchange for one of theirs. Only one EU licence is allowed. Note that UK licences may become invalid throughout the EU after Brexit.
3. SSR application/renewal requires you be ordinarily resident in UK; Part 1 does not. ("Ordinarily resident" does not mean >183 days p.a., although the MCA used to think it did.)
4. By NHS, I presume you mean the UK health service? If you're eligible for S1 registration (for most people, this would require being a UK pensioner, although there are other avenues), you can be granted NHS entitlement for life.
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Graham376
Well-known member
Firstly, if you have Spanish residency then the consesus seems to be you will still be time limited in Portugal.
If you apply for residency in Portugal, the UK authorities know nothing about it unless you're daft enough to tell them so, no change to tax, NI etc. as long as you still appear to meet the UK residence rules. I've been driving Portuguese registered car here for many years on a UK driving license and only queried by GNR once and when I told them I kept returning to UK, they said OK. No-one here such as GNR, PM etc. knows I have residence so I just behave as a tourist most of the time.
P.S. My car registration and insurance address is local sailing club so no tie to property address and Faro insurance is cheaper than Lisbon area.
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nortada
Well-known member
A quick read of expatica suggested that, unlike Portugal, you cannot hold dual Spanish/British nationality.
Back to Portugal next week and Spain in late October so will try to get some facts to replace all of this speculation.
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Tradewinds
Well-known member
Worst case scenario: Needing a visa for the Schengen area
As a frequent traveller to my boat in the Netherlands this website makes for fairly sober reading.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com
See (not hot linked):
Schengen Visa Types & Validity
Schengen Visa Fees
Visa Application Requirements
Can't see it working for me as a frequent traveller (as opposed to visiting for a full 90 days).
As a frequent traveller to my boat in the Netherlands this website makes for fairly sober reading.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com
See (not hot linked):
Schengen Visa Types & Validity
Schengen Visa Fees
Visa Application Requirements
Can't see it working for me as a frequent traveller (as opposed to visiting for a full 90 days).
macd
Active member
Re: Worst case scenario: Needing a visa for the Schengen area
There's no reason to presume that UK nationals will require a Schengen visa post-Brexit. It's possible that they will, but nationals of many "third countries" do not: Australia, NZ, USA, to name but three. Such visa-free travel is normally still bound by the 90-days-in-180 limit.
There's no reason to presume that UK nationals will require a Schengen visa post-Brexit. It's possible that they will, but nationals of many "third countries" do not: Australia, NZ, USA, to name but three. Such visa-free travel is normally still bound by the 90-days-in-180 limit.
