greeny
Well-known member
Sorry Nortada, the comment was meant for Rai. original poster.
UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?
- Thread starter nortada
- Start date
Sorry Nortada, the comment was meant for Rai. original poster.
nortada
Well-known member
No need for any apology but now you have raised it, in this context, what part does citizenship play?
I believe SailFree has investigated the far greater requirements for Portuguese citizenship that would result in changing your UK passport for a Portuguese one?
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greeny
Well-known member
I've not read the Sailfree information and I'm no expert in this but it would basically result in you getting a Portuguese passport. I believe that UK and portugal allow dual nationality so you can also retain your UK passport as well. Unlike Spain I think.
Having a Pt passport would allow you free movement etc etc within Eu as you would be travelling as a portugueae person would.
Like those people who have managed to get a S. Ireland passport through their ancestry.
nortada
Well-known member
SailFree has posted loads of earlier messages, on this thread, packed with good advice on the whole subject of life on the Silver Coast and I believe he has citizenship in his sights.
That said, I too am no expert on citizenship but believe your take is correct and would add, I have seen nothing to suggest that a Brit with a British passport and appropriate visas would not also be able to travel within the EU - as do Americans.
Additionally, I have seen nothing to suggest that a Brit with a British Passport and Portuguese Residencia would not be able to travel within the UK post Brexit. Equally, I have seen nothing to confirm that they will be able to.
Suspect only time will tell.
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Graham376
Well-known member
Re: Residencia In Portugal
I had local residence before permanent and I don't recognise much of what you say, as far as registering driving licence, tax and Portuguese EHIC are concerned.
In Nortada's case, he had several years of marina contracts and invoices to confirm his residence.
I had local residence before permanent and I don't recognise much of what you say, as far as registering driving licence, tax and Portuguese EHIC are concerned.
In Nortada's case, he had several years of marina contracts and invoices to confirm his residence.
jordanbasset
Well-known member
I thought the issue of a non E.U. national who has residency on one E.U. Country having to comply with the same restrictions re Schengen and being allowed only 3 months in any 6 months in the rest of the E.U. had already been mentioned on here (but my memory could be playing tricks)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32010R0265
'As a result, a long-stay visa should have the same effects as a residence permit as regards the freedom of movement of the holder in the Schengen Area.
(4)
A third-country national holding a long-stay visa issued by a Member State should therefore be allowed to travel to other Member States for three months in any six-month period, under the same conditions as the holder of a residence permit. This Regulation does not affect the rules regarding the conditions for issuing long-stay visas.'
So it is clear that residency of one E.U. Country does not give you freedom of movement for the rest of the E.U. and you are still limited to 3 months in every 6 months.
There is a question about how it could be enforced and I suspect you could be in another E.U. country illegally and may never be found out (unless you had a run in with the law, fly in or out of that other country to outside the E.U. etc). Personally that is not the way I like to live my life.
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nortada
Well-known member
Re: Residencia In Portugal
Greeny’s experiences at #276 and Graham’s comments above highlight life and the authorities in Portugal.
From my research, while the Portuguese immigration authorities award permanent redidencia, Camaras, have delegated authority to process a 5 year residency permit. Whilst they are different documents, holders of either enjoy exactly the same set of priviledges. Moreover, after 5 years, when you attend the immigration office in your area, it is a formality to exchange your Portuguese Residence Permit (with no photograph) for a life-long residency card, which does have your photograph on it.
Neither document is accepted as proof of identity, that is why Brits in Portugal are supposed to carry their passport at all times or get a notorised miniture encapsulated page of their passport as proof of identity. In common with many other Brits, we have an ecapsulated, credit-card sized copies of our passports but, as the GNR like issuing on- the- spot fines, to be safe, always carry our full passports when driving.
Back to Graham and Greeny’s experiences, as all in Portugal know, where the rules are concerned, the authorities have a habit of different interpretation.
Where residency is concerned, it is my impression, that is it is best you deal with the Camara, rather than the immigration office or than through a Portuguese Embassy, who specialise in the various visas, rather than residencia.
I will now get further advice from my many friends (both boaty and non-boaty), who have residency, on the trials and tribulations of obtaining a Portuguese Residencia Permit and life-long residencia and again, will report back.
If turned down by Portugal, would it be possible to go down the Spanish route to free-up travel post Brexit?
Consequently, it would be useful to hear of any first-hand experiences in Spain or any other EU country?
Greeny’s experiences at #276 and Graham’s comments above highlight life and the authorities in Portugal.
From my research, while the Portuguese immigration authorities award permanent redidencia, Camaras, have delegated authority to process a 5 year residency permit. Whilst they are different documents, holders of either enjoy exactly the same set of priviledges. Moreover, after 5 years, when you attend the immigration office in your area, it is a formality to exchange your Portuguese Residence Permit (with no photograph) for a life-long residency card, which does have your photograph on it.
Neither document is accepted as proof of identity, that is why Brits in Portugal are supposed to carry their passport at all times or get a notorised miniture encapsulated page of their passport as proof of identity. In common with many other Brits, we have an ecapsulated, credit-card sized copies of our passports but, as the GNR like issuing on- the- spot fines, to be safe, always carry our full passports when driving.
Back to Graham and Greeny’s experiences, as all in Portugal know, where the rules are concerned, the authorities have a habit of different interpretation.
Where residency is concerned, it is my impression, that is it is best you deal with the Camara, rather than the immigration office or than through a Portuguese Embassy, who specialise in the various visas, rather than residencia.
I will now get further advice from my many friends (both boaty and non-boaty), who have residency, on the trials and tribulations of obtaining a Portuguese Residencia Permit and life-long residencia and again, will report back.
If turned down by Portugal, would it be possible to go down the Spanish route to free-up travel post Brexit?
Consequently, it would be useful to hear of any first-hand experiences in Spain or any other EU country?
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greeny
Well-known member
Re: Residencia In Portugal
Guys, I think we're all a bit guilty of overworking this subject.
the facts are:
we don't know whar Brexit means and what the agreement (if any) will mean to us Brits abroad.
The only thing you can do right now to prepare is to follow the current rules and get your residencia by whatever process your local camara asks.
If you wish to continue on the road and go for permanent residence then do that.
Other than that you can do no more at the current time in my opinion.
If anyone else can tell me what else i need to do, or can do under the current laws then please do so.
Guys, I think we're all a bit guilty of overworking this subject.
the facts are:
we don't know whar Brexit means and what the agreement (if any) will mean to us Brits abroad.
The only thing you can do right now to prepare is to follow the current rules and get your residencia by whatever process your local camara asks.
If you wish to continue on the road and go for permanent residence then do that.
Other than that you can do no more at the current time in my opinion.
If anyone else can tell me what else i need to do, or can do under the current laws then please do so.
nortada
Well-known member
Greeny. I will PM you.
nortada
Well-known member
Re: Residencia In Portugal
As promised, I have listened to a number of people, who were unanimous, that getting Portuguese Residencia was a sinch.
A newcomer arrived a few days ago, took a berth for 6 months, got the form from the CAMARA, completed and returned it and although he did not have a fiscal number, he now has residencia.
QED
As promised, I have listened to a number of people, who were unanimous, that getting Portuguese Residencia was a sinch.
A newcomer arrived a few days ago, took a berth for 6 months, got the form from the CAMARA, completed and returned it and although he did not have a fiscal number, he now has residencia.
QED
nortada
Well-known member
The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
For those who want one.
You will see that the certificate is:
A 'Certificato De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia' issued by the 'Republica Portugesa'. This could suggest that the bearer, as a citizen of the EU, should have free access across the EU.
Thoughts?
For those who want one.
You will see that the certificate is:
A 'Certificato De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia' issued by the 'Republica Portugesa'. This could suggest that the bearer, as a citizen of the EU, should have free access across the EU.
Thoughts?
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greeny
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
The same document we've got, but by a much more tortuous route and onerous set of requirements.
It just confirms how interpretation of the law can vary between camaras that are not 20kms apart!
If we went to a third camera we would probably find a completely different take on it.
However as the camera you go to has to be the one where you are living/staying i don't think we can choose the "easy option" unfortunately.
The same document we've got, but by a much more tortuous route and onerous set of requirements.
It just confirms how interpretation of the law can vary between camaras that are not 20kms apart!
If we went to a third camera we would probably find a completely different take on it.
However as the camera you go to has to be the one where you are living/staying i don't think we can choose the "easy option" unfortunately.
RAI
Well-known member
This is in answer to Nortada's message above. His comments in red.
At the moment, the post Brexit freedom of movement conditions, for British expats, will be restricted to their EU country of residence. (Conjecture - Link?).
https://assets.publishing.service.g...on_of_EU-UK_positions_on_citizens__rights.pdf
See item 23. I don't know what has been decided on this point. Later additions of this document seem to indicate that something has been agreed, but what?
So, if Brits will need to get Schengen visas post Brexit, you might need one too. (But I would be a Portuguese Resident? The Irish (who, also, are not in Schengen do not) so why should I required a Schengen visa?)
Your residence permit is not a travel document. A passport with a Schengen visa is.
Otherwise you could travel to Spain via Faro, say, where your Portuguese residence certificate carries no weight, that is, if Spain requires a Schengen visa for Brits. I would be a Portuguese Resident travelling on a British passport so why would I need a Schengen visa, when my Irish and Portuguese friends do not? Especially, as we both know there are no border checks within the Schengen zone? OK if you don't get caught. Schengen removes the requirement for government checks, it does not remove the requirement for the individual to carry adequate documentation.
Hopefully, the Schengen visa will not be required but, I suspect like the Americans, the 90/180 day rule will apply for tourists. (A Brit with a PRP is not a tourist!)
Only in Britain or Portugal.
However, the EU is likely to reciprocate whatever the UK chooses to apply to EU visitors entry and its hostile environment for immigrants. (Seem to recall the UK intends to honour all privileges given to those EU immigrants who arrived before Brexit. Hopefully we would receive similar courtesies.) You need to read TM's paper on how future EU citizens will be treated the same as non-EU citizens and will have to obtained settles status before applying for permanent residence.
At the moment, the post Brexit freedom of movement conditions, for British expats, will be restricted to their EU country of residence. (Conjecture - Link?).
https://assets.publishing.service.g...on_of_EU-UK_positions_on_citizens__rights.pdf
See item 23. I don't know what has been decided on this point. Later additions of this document seem to indicate that something has been agreed, but what?
So, if Brits will need to get Schengen visas post Brexit, you might need one too. (But I would be a Portuguese Resident? The Irish (who, also, are not in Schengen do not) so why should I required a Schengen visa?)
Your residence permit is not a travel document. A passport with a Schengen visa is.
Otherwise you could travel to Spain via Faro, say, where your Portuguese residence certificate carries no weight, that is, if Spain requires a Schengen visa for Brits. I would be a Portuguese Resident travelling on a British passport so why would I need a Schengen visa, when my Irish and Portuguese friends do not? Especially, as we both know there are no border checks within the Schengen zone? OK if you don't get caught. Schengen removes the requirement for government checks, it does not remove the requirement for the individual to carry adequate documentation.
Hopefully, the Schengen visa will not be required but, I suspect like the Americans, the 90/180 day rule will apply for tourists. (A Brit with a PRP is not a tourist!)
Only in Britain or Portugal.
However, the EU is likely to reciprocate whatever the UK chooses to apply to EU visitors entry and its hostile environment for immigrants. (Seem to recall the UK intends to honour all privileges given to those EU immigrants who arrived before Brexit. Hopefully we would receive similar courtesies.) You need to read TM's paper on how future EU citizens will be treated the same as non-EU citizens and will have to obtained settles status before applying for permanent residence.
RAI
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
I think that applies to those that have the European Union stamped on their burgundy coloured passports.
Graham376
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
Things differ depending on one's circumstances. I received the following explanation when I originally took out 5 year residence in Linda a Velha, near Lisbon. - If one owns or rents property and has utility bills then no witnesses required (it now appears marina contract is acceptable) but, if no proof of residence then witnesses are required. I already had a fiscal number and can't remember whether that was necessary. IIRC the process took a couple of days.
Several years later I then obtained permanent residence. At that time we had property so it was just a case of form filling and waiting about 3 weeks.
We are still UK residents but for those who permanently leave the UK to live in Portugal then there are more steps such as getting into tax system, changing driving license, health insurance etc.
Things differ depending on one's circumstances. I received the following explanation when I originally took out 5 year residence in Linda a Velha, near Lisbon. - If one owns or rents property and has utility bills then no witnesses required (it now appears marina contract is acceptable) but, if no proof of residence then witnesses are required. I already had a fiscal number and can't remember whether that was necessary. IIRC the process took a couple of days.
Several years later I then obtained permanent residence. At that time we had property so it was just a case of form filling and waiting about 3 weeks.
We are still UK residents but for those who permanently leave the UK to live in Portugal then there are more steps such as getting into tax system, changing driving license, health insurance etc.
RAI
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
It would be interesting to see how Nortada gets on with a real application in Lagos. Maybe the extra requirements that your met will suddenly appear.
nortada
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
I will have European Union stamped on my passport until Christmas Day 2025, by which time I will be 83 so I trust Santa will sort it for me.
I will have European Union stamped on my passport until Christmas Day 2025, by which time I will be 83 so I trust Santa will sort it for me.
nortada
Well-known member
Re: The Application For Portuguese Residencia + A Blank Certificate of Residencia.
Please see my #290, where I have quoted a precedent so why should I be singled out for special treatment?
Hope not - only time will tell.
Please see my #290, where I have quoted a precedent so why should I be singled out for special treatment?
Hope not - only time will tell.
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nortada
Well-known member
This is getting rather tortuous so I think the fundamental difference is, whenever possible, I deal in facts and leave speculation to others. Moreover, I am optimistic by nature, which, I hope, will carry us through whatever Brexit may throw at us.
To be specific, I am living by my maxim, “Hope for the best but plan for the worst”. Which is at the root of this Portuguese Residency issue.
If I have Portuguese Residencia I should at least be able to visit the boat whenever I wish and sail, the Silver Coast and the Algarve. Possibly the Guadiana could prove a bit dodgy so if the worst comes to the worst, I must remember to keep well over to the weatern bank.:encouragement:
To be specific, I am living by my maxim, “Hope for the best but plan for the worst”. Which is at the root of this Portuguese Residency issue.
If I have Portuguese Residencia I should at least be able to visit the boat whenever I wish and sail, the Silver Coast and the Algarve. Possibly the Guadiana could prove a bit dodgy so if the worst comes to the worst, I must remember to keep well over to the weatern bank.:encouragement:
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nortada
Well-known member
If I understand you correctly, post Brexit, a Brit with residencia in an EU country would be able to legally visit other EU countries in the Schengen Zone for up to 90 days in any 270?
So in a boating context, if you have, Portuguese Residencia, you would be able to visit Spain, or elsewhere, for up to 90 days in 270? That covers the summer cruise!
To make this work, I assume that the countries you visit, whilst on your cruise would have to log you in and out. Given the current southern European mind-set, this could make life interesting.
