UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[jordanbasset]

I thought the issue of a non E.U. national who has residency on one E.U. Country having to comply with the same restrictions re Schengen and being allowed only 3 months in any 6 months in the rest of the E.U. had already been mentioned on here (but my memory could be playing tricks)

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32010R0265
'As a result, a long-stay visa should have the same effects as a residence permit as regards the freedom of movement of the holder in the Schengen Area.
(4)
A third-country national holding a long-stay visa issued by a Member State should therefore be allowed to travel to other Member States for three months in any six-month period, under the same conditions as the holder of a residence permit. This Regulation does not affect the rules regarding the conditions for issuing long-stay visas.'

So it is clear that residency of one E.U. Country does not give you freedom of movement for the rest of the E.U. and you are still limited to 3 months in every 6 months.
There is a question about how it could be enforced and I suspect you could be in another E.U. country illegally and may never be found out (unless you had a run in with the law, fly in or out of that other country to outside the E.U. etc). Personally that is not the way I like to live my life.

If I understand you correctly, post Brexit, a Brit with residencia in an EU country would be able to legally visit other EU countries in the Schengen Zone for up to 90 days in any 270?

No, 3 months in every 6 months, or 90 days in every 180 if you prefer. For those like you who spend most of their time in one country and have a permanent address which the country you are in accepts as suitable, then residency is the answer. For others it will not be.

 

[nortada]

Understand that some folk from the US on the Silver Coast have taken residencia.

Presumably they still only have a US passport? The US is not in Schengen so any restrictions that now apply to their travel in other EU countries (90 days in 180) would also apply to Brits post Brexit?

As said before, this would only be a minor imposition to Brits sailing in The EU, post Brexit.

This reinforces the case for Brits currently in Europe to try to get a Certificate of Residency in their host country, before 29 Mar 19?

It would be useful to hear the thoughts and experiences of Brits currently in other EU countries but, unfortunately this thread is centring on only the possibilities in Portugal.

 

[jordanbasset]

Understand that some folk from the US on the Silver Coast have taken residencia.

Presumably they still only have a US passport? The US is not in Schengen so any restrictions that now apply to their travel in other EU countries (90 days in 180) would also apply to Brits post Brexit?

As said before, this would only be a minor imposition to Brits sailing in The EU, post Brexit.

Not sure where you get the minor imposition from, for people like me and my wife who spend 6 months of the summer in Greece but don't have a permanent address there it will be a major inconvenience, ie we could only spend 3 months there. Equally we sped 4-5 months every winter in Spain, again we could only spend 3 months there. I know of many couples who are in a similar position, perhaps worst, as they live on a boat full time but do not have a permanent address in a E.U. country
I also appreciate people like myself and others in a similar situation are small beer compared to the big issues being discussed and not too may tears will be shed for us.
Also you never know a deal will be done that allows reciprocal freedom of movement.

 

[nortada]

Understand that some folk from the US on the Silver Coast have taken residencia.

Presumably they still only have a US passport? The US is not in Schengen so any restrictions that now apply to their travel in other EU countries (90 days in 180) would also apply to Brits post Brexit?

As said before, this would only be a minor imposition to Brits sailing in The EU, post Brexit.

This reinforces the case for Brits currently in Europe to try to get a Certificate of Residency in their host country, before 29 Mar 19?

It would be useful to hear the thoughts and experiences of Brits currently in other EU countries but, unfortunately this thread is centring on only the possibilities in Portugal.

Not sure where you get the minor imposition from, for people like me and my wife who spend 6 months of the summer in Greece but don't have a permanent address there it will be a major inconvenience, ie we could only spend 3 months there. Equally we sped 4-5 months every winter in Spain, again we could only spend 3 months there. I know of many couples who are in a similar position, perhaps worst, as they live on a boat full time but do not have a permanent address in a E.U. country
I also appreciate people like myself and others in a similar situation are small beer compared to the big issues being discussed and not too may tears will be shed for us.
Also you never know a deal will be done that allows reciprocal freedom of movement.

My ‘minor imposition’ observation relates to Brits who will have a Certificate of Residence for a mainland EU country before Brexit. Hence my comment that getting residencia would seem a good idea.

Can you get residencia in Greece or Spain? If so it could go part way to resolving your problems post Brexit.:encouragement:

Tears - this thread was floated with folk like your good selves very much in mind and who knows, possibly it will all sort be sorted before 29 Mar 19 - but don’t hold your breath!

 

[RAI]

This is getting rather tortuous so I think the fundamental difference is, whenever possible, I deal in facts and leave speculation to others. Moreover, I am optimistic by nature, which, I hope, will carry us through whatever Brexit may throw at us.

So why not go ahead and apply for residence in Lagos, then you will just be dealing in facts and won't have to ask others to speculate?
You can rescind it later, if it has no advantage for you.

 

[RAI]

Not sure where you get the minor imposition from, for people like me and my wife who spend 6 months of the summer in Greece but don't have a permanent address there it will be a major inconvenience, ie we could only spend 3 months there. Equally we sped 4-5 months every winter in Spain, again we could only spend 3 months there. I know of many couples who are in a similar position, perhaps worst, as they live on a boat full time but do not have a permanent address in a E.U. country
I also appreciate people like myself and others in a similar situation are small beer compared to the big issues being discussed and not too may tears will be shed for us.
Also you never know a deal will be done that allows reciprocal freedom of movement.

The current system is set up for people with residential addresses and not for those of us who like to move about a lot. It seems logical that future arrangements will also be address based. Hence we are likely to be treated as tourists (and hopefully not as vagrants or illegal immigrants) outside the countries where we hold residence or nationality. That would mean the 90 in 180 days with or perhaps without needing a visa.

 

[nortada]

So why not go ahead and apply for residence in Lagos, then you will just be dealing in facts and won't have to ask others to speculate?

You can rescind it later, if it has no advantage for you.

Now there's a thought.

Wasn't aware I was inviting others to speculate; rather ruminate over the facts we have, with the aim to minimize the possible impact that Brexit may have on we Brit Boaties who spend much of our time in the mainland Europe. :encouragement:

Think most of the speculators are over in Anything Brexit, working themselves into a righteous lather. :encouragement:

Rescind it it later! Never, but possible could sell it on to those who find themselves unable to join this club.

That is always assuming that I am in the club.

 

[BigJoe]

This is a fantastic thread, and exactly what we have been looking for, however I do believe after reading all 29 pages, I could pass the Portuguese Bar, which in time, may not be a bad thing.

We have our boat in Spain, we live on her full time and spend 6 months in marinas, 6 months cruising, more or less.

We are British passport holders, but do not have Spanish residency.

The question I have is ……………….. If we go down the Spanish resident route, would we have to pay Spanish matriculation tax on our boat.

 

[RAI]

The question I have is ……………….. If we go down the Spanish resident route, would we have to pay Spanish matriculation tax on our boat.

Nominally, a resident of Spain must have all his motor vehicles (included planes and boats) registered in Spain and pay the appropriate taxes. However, one reads that the RYA managed to get yachts excluded under some conditions.
OOOps! The RYA forbids its papers being posted unless permission is obtained.
Google finds the paper anyway.

 

[nortada]

This is a fantastic thread, and exactly what we have been looking for, however I do believe after reading all 29 pages, I could pass the Portuguese Bar, which in time, may not be a bad thing.

We have our boat in Spain, we live on her full time and spend 6 months in marinas, 6 months cruising, more or less.

We are British passport holders, but do not have Spanish residency.

The question I have is ……………….. If we go down the Spanish resident route, would we have to pay Spanish matriculation tax on our boat.

Good to hear a voice from Spain. :encouragement:

There is a family house in Ayamonte so we have an interest in how this will pan out for folks in Spain.

Only thing I could suggest is, you could consider some time cruising/berthing in Portugal?

The other thing, rather than rely on the anecdotal advice from others (who often prove to be false prophets), just use them for pointers but do your own research, first hand.

As you can see from earlier posts on this thread, countries rules and attitudes towards residency in their country vary markedly and even different authorities in the same country may take a totally different line.

I seem to recall that a few years back some regions in Spain were hot on matriculation boat tax, sailing qualifications and equipment scales but Atlantic Andalusia was very laid back on the self-same issues.

No doubt British friends in Spain will be able to give you much more detail.

Really hope it all works out for you and following you qualifying for the Portuguese Bar, may I rely on your services?

Pro bono of course! :encouragement:

 

[jordanbasset]

Can you get residencia in Greece or Spain? If so it could go part way to resolving your problems post Brexit.:encouragement:

Even if they accepted a marina berth as full time residency (by no means certain) I do not want to get dragged into the Greek tax system, which seems labyrinth in nature -
https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/greece-income-tax.html
Even if I did and was succesful, it would only allow me to spend 3 months in the rest of the E.U.

 

[Graham376]

Even if they accepted a marina berth as full time residency (by no means certain) I do not want to get dragged into the Greek tax system, which seems labyrinth in nature -
https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/greece-income-tax.html
Even if I did and was succesful, it would only allow me to spend 3 months in the rest of the E.U.

It reads as if one is resident only as a tourist then not taxable? Certainly worth looking into.

an individual is considered as a Greek tax resident as of the first day of his residence in Greece if he/she resides continuously in Greece for a period exceeding 183 days, including short term stay outside Greece.

However, respective provision is not applicable in case of individuals who are present in Greece only for tourism, medical, medicinal or equivalent personal purposes on condition that their presence does not exceed the 365 days threshold.

 

[nortada]

Even if they accepted a marina berth as full time residency (by no means certain) I do not want to get dragged into the Greek tax system, which seems labyrinth in nature -
https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/greece-income-tax.html
Even if I did and was succesful, it would only allow me to spend 3 months in the rest of the E.U.

Understand your concerns regarding the Greek tax system.

Not aware where you are in Greece but have you considered getting a certificate of residence in Southern Cyprus?

Possibly Mountain could provide some specialist advice on this area.

 

[mountain]

Understand your concerns regarding the Greek tax system.

Not aware where you are in Greece but have you considered getting a certificate of residence in Southern Cyprus?

Possibly Mountain could provide some specialist advice on this area.

The quickest way is to purchase a new build property for min. €300,000, deposit €30,000 on a three year term in a Cypriot bank, and prove you have an income of min. €10,000 pa.

Residency usually granted within three months.

The village of Zygi is a good place to look. The newly completed marina appears to have plenty of space still and The Captain's Table restaurant is excellent.

 

[jordanbasset]

Thank you, I like Cyprus and have had a couple of good holidays there including staying with my sister on the SBA, but I have no desire to buy a property there or live there for any extended period

 

[jordanbasset]

It reads as if one is resident only as a tourist then not taxable? Certainly worth looking into.

an individual is considered as a Greek tax resident as of the first day of his residence in Greece if he/she resides continuously in Greece for a period exceeding 183 days, including short term stay outside Greece.

However, respective provision is not applicable in case of individuals who are present in Greece only for tourism, medical, medicinal or equivalent personal purposes on condition that their presence does not exceed the 365 days threshold.

Yes it may be an out but still would be reluctant to test it in reality

 

[greeny]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

I had local residence before permanent and I don't recognise much of what you say, as far as registering driving licence, tax and Portuguese EHIC are concerned.



Graham, I was at my lawyer's yesterday and asked the question regarding driving licence etc.
She said to me that if I get stopped driving a non portuguese car that I should not admit to being resident and tell them I am on holiday, or I could be fined exactly the same as a portuguese person could be.
She said the same would apply to boats as a mode of transport however she has never seen that enforced. All off the record of course.
As far as Ehic goes, if you are not resident in UK, do not pay your tax in the uk and are not in receipt of a uk pension then you should have a EHIC issued in the country of residence, in my case Portugal. In fact the application for a renewal of the ehic in uk makes reference to this very point. I appreciate you may still be in uk for tax and/or in receipt of a pension which would mean you qualify for a uk ehic, but for my situation (not of pensionable age and taxed in portugal), what I describe is fact not conjecture.
How individuals choose to deal with these requirements is not my concern.

 

[nortada]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

I had local residence before permanent and I don't recognise much of what you say, as far as registering driving licence, tax and Portuguese EHIC are concerned.

Graham,

I was at my lawyer's yesterday and asked the question regarding driving licence etc.
She said to me that if I get stopped driving a non portuguese car that I should not admit to being resident and tell them I am on holiday, or I could be fined exactly the same as a portuguese person could be.
She said the same would apply to boats as a mode of transport however she has never seen that enforced. All off the record of course.
As far as Ehic goes, if you are not resident in UK, do not pay your tax in the uk and are not in receipt of a uk pension then you should have a EHIC issued in the country of residence, in my case Portugal. In fact the application for a renewal of the ehic in uk makes reference to this very point. I appreciate you may still be in uk for tax and/or in receipt of a pension which would mean you qualify for a uk ehic, but for my situation (not of pensionable age and taxed in portugal), what I describe is fact not conjecture.
How individuals choose to deal with these requirements is not my concern.

Greeny,

A very interesting post.

My situation is more closely aligned with Graham.

I am an OAP, with a British Government Pension (which will always be taxed at source in the UK), I have a UK driving licence but only drive hire cars in Portugal and UK EHIC. The boat is SSR registered and 'driven' on my UK licence.

Other than the boat, I have no assets or income in Portugal.

Given my circumstances and the dual tax agreement between the UK and Portugal and the fact that I am fully taxed by HMRC, it is my understanding that if I have temporary (5 year) residency, I will not be required to complete a tax return or pay direct taxes in Portugal?

The whole reason for these deliberations is to ameliorate the possible impact of Brexit.

Having taken residencia, if life became too difficult, the bottom line would be to renounce my residencia and revert to my former status.

Any flaws in my thinking?

 

[Graham376]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

Graham, I was at my lawyer's yesterday and asked the question regarding driving licence etc.
She said to me that if I get stopped driving a non portuguese car that I should not admit to being resident and tell them I am on holiday, or I could be fined exactly the same as a portuguese person could be.

I don't dispute what you or your lawyer say, you have emigrated to Portugal and are following the rules whereas some of us are still resident UK property owners, tax payers etc.just hedging our bets in view of possible restrictions after Brexit.

In practical terms, no-one here knows I am resident so I just ignore the rules, as does my wife who is a citizen. If we followed them it would be silly to have to change our driving licenses here and then back to a UK one every time there for >3 months. DVLA tell me both can't be held at the same time. In short, it's easy to get residence but keep below the radar.

 

[nortada]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

I don't dispute what you or your lawyer say, you have emigrated to Portugal and are following the rules whereas some of us are still resident UK property owners, tax payers etc.just hedging our bets in view of possible restrictions after Brexit.

In practical terms, no-one here knows I am resident so I just ignore the rules, as does my wife who is a citizen. If we followed them it would be silly to have to change our driving licenses here and then back to a UK one every time there for >3 months. DVLA tell me both can't be held at the same time. In short, it's easy to get residence but keep below the radar.

A compelling argument but I have just left a get-together of worried Brits discussing the implications of Brexit.

The central theme was concern that if they got a temporary (5 year) residence certificate, they would lose their UK status (NHS, state pensions etc.).

I pointed out that if it all went pear-shape they could always hand back their residencia certificate and revert to their former status.

Of course, post Brexit this could mean they may be only allowed to be in Portugal, with a visa for a maximum of 90 days in 180.