UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[Graham376]

Re: Residencia In Portugal

I have just left a get-together of worried Brits discussing the implications of Brexit.

The central theme was concern that if they got a temporary (5 year) residence certificate, they would lose their UK status (NHS, state pensions etc.).

Unless someone is emigrating or, declaring absence, having been granted residence does not mean you have left the UK or have in fact taken up that residence. As long as you are still seen as normally UK resident - address, electoral role, paying income tax etc., nothing changes. No-one knows where we are, UK Border force don't log people in and out to record absences. The UK is happy to collect our tax and the Portuguese are happy for us to spend money here.

 

[RAI]

Just a thought about the difference between Portimao (Greeny) and Lagos (Nortada) expression of regulations on residence.
Is Greeny below pension age and Nortada above it?
In Belgium at least, pensioners have an easier time getting residence or dual nationality than their working age friends.

 

[nortada]

Just a thought about the difference between Portimao (Greeny) and Lagos (Nortada) expression of regulations on residence.
Is Greeny below pension age and Nortada above it?
In Belgium at least, pensioners have an easier time getting residence or dual nationality than their working age friends.

From previous posts, Greeny has indicated that he has yet to attain 65 (the universal age for retirement in Portugal) and I have confirmed that I am an OAP but I doubt if this is material when seeking A Temporary (5 year) Certificate of Residence?

 

[RAI]

From previous posts, Greeny has indicated that he has yet to attain 65 (the universal age for retirement in Portugal) and I have confirmed that I am an OAP but I doubt if this is material when seeking A Temporary (5 year) Certificate of Residence?

You could ask your source.

 

[nortada]

You could ask your source.

Not aware I have a source.

Initially, I tried to address the general question, "Can a Brit Boatie get residencia in EU countries and what are the implications?"

Then, as the size of this apparently simple question dawned on me, I redefined my question to, "How can a Brit Boatie get residencia in Iberia and what are the implications?"

It then became increasingly apparent that, although neighbours, Portugal and Spain have very different attitudes to many issues, including residencia. (Bit like Devon and Cornwall back home in the West Country).

Concentrating on Portugal, I have established that the CAMARAs are responsible for issuing A Temporary (5 year) Certificate of Residency but at the end of this 5 year period, the immigration authorities issue Permanent Residencia. However, as is often the case in Portugal, different CAMARAs operate with different criteria.

I still have to close out on the implications of a Brit Boatie taking temporary residency so continue to gather advice.

It appears that provided you have a recognized postal address in Portugal and are an EU citizen, it can be quick and easy to get residencia but this may no longer be the case post Brexit.

The other imponderable is what will be the benefits of residencia post Brexit? Hopefully unlimited access to the UK and Portugal and possibly, greater access to other countries in the Schengen Zone.

Much of my initail information has been provided within the posts on this thread and provided a catalyst, to be followed up by contacts with informed opinion.

As a by-product, I have come by a fair amount of information on residencia in other EU countries and have passed it on to those concerned.

The overall message I have got is that in some EU countries residencia is relatively easy to get and carries limited or no tax implications but it is essential to research cautiously your ares of interest.

Finally, it could be advisable to get residencia before 29 Mar 2019 but given Portuguese Temporay Residencia can be achieved in days, there is no imperative to act until much nearer Brexit Day - ‘keeping your powder dry’.

Now what was your question?

 

[jordanbasset]

The issue people need to be aware of that the situation is quite different for EU/EFTA Nationals and non EU/EFTA nationals when getting residency and the extra hurdles that are put in place
This is a site for US citizens wanting residence in Portugal so I think it is quite a fair one to show what the situation will be for UK citizens post Brexit
http://www.expatexchange.com/ctrygu...ving-to-Portugal-Demystifying-the-Paper-Trail
'Required Documents:
Documents that must be included with your Application are explained below.

Personal Statement: This short note is provided, dated and signed by each applicant. It states the reason for settling in Portugal, generally where you intend to reside and what type of accommodations (rental, buy) you'll have initially.
Proof of Financial Means / Proof of Sufficient Funds: What constitutes 'sufficient' varies. A few years ago, the threshold was 50,000 euros per applicant, sourced from any combination of investments, income and savings. In the last two years, the consulates are pegging the amount to the Portuguese minimum wage data. This reduces the threshold to about 16,000 euros for the first family member and half of that for each additional family member. This lower threshold is roughly calculated as 40 euros of funds for each day you'll be in Portugal plus 75.00 euros per entry into the country. These assets must be accessible to you from Portugal.
What counts towards your proof of sufficient funds is any combination of the following:

a) Bank statements (must be for the most recent three months and show the name and address of account owner(s)--applicants with joint accounts may both use the same account statements yet both names must appear on the statement); Travelers checks; Letter of employment showing income; International credit card showing credit limit; Investment reports; Income from property or non-property assets or from intellectual property

b) A company pension certificate, pension check statement or notarized letter confirming a pension from the responsible authority and/or a Social Security Benefit letter

c) Self-employed persons can use their tax return from the previous fiscal year or proof of previous economic activity and of an income during the previous fiscal year

Provide only original copies or color print-outs of all the records you use to prove financial means. If you fail to provide proof of sufficient financial means, you'll be required to have a 'financial guarantor' in Portugal. A financial guarantor can be your lawyer, a person with power of attorney, landlord, Dean of Admissions etc. who is a national of the European Union or holds permanent residence in Portugal. This person needs to provide a letter or email stating that he/she will guarantee your accommodations and financial support for a year as well as your return transit to the US. The guarantor's name, financial number and address are required on the letter or email. This imposes a legal risk on the guarantor so it can be difficult to obtain.

This difficulty has encouraged a new business in Portugal aimed at selling the financial guaranty letter and visa preparation services. Alleged service-providers are 'trolling' our posts on Facebook, websites and blogs, then contacting potential Visa applicants in the US and offering to deal with the guarantor letter and all aspects of applying for a Visa, charging $400 to $4500 for the basket of services. Three out of four times, these people are not attorneys, not qualified to help and abscond with your money. Many of us who've preceded you to Portugal can recommend attorneys who would charge $40 per guarantor letter or you can ask your initial landlord or realtor, who often is willing to help.

SPECIAL NOTE: I've emphasized the role of Financial Guarantor here because the San Francisco consul requests this Financial Guarantor regardless of your level of financial means. If applying through San Francisco, you must submit a letter or email that complies with the above details. This could become a requirement from all consuls.

Criminal Record Certificate: This is obtained from the FBI and requires that you complete an application called the FBI Identification Record Request / Criminal Background Check. You must submit a recent, original set of your fingerprints with your application. This Certificate currently costs $18 per applicant. You need to receive a clean criminal record statement from the FBI to include in your Application package. If you go through the FBI it can take four months to receive this letter, perhaps 10 days through a channeler. Make a couple of copies of your Certificate as your original remains with your Application at the consulate. You might also be asked to sign a request form for a criminal record check in Portugal (Requerimento - Registo Criminal), which the consulate will process for you.
Copy of your Marriage Certificate or license if you are married. About half of recent applicants have not been required by their consulate to provide this.
Passports: Copy of the photo page (showing personal data and dates of validity) from your passport. This page must be notarized. Please note:
a) If you are issued a Visa, your consulate will request your passport to affix the Visa to a blank page. Passports must be issued within the last 10 years and must have at least two blank pages. A passport older than ten years that has been extended for a period exceeding ten years from the date of issuance will not be accepted.

b) Your passport must be valid for at least three months after the expiration of the visa for which you are applying. The passport or travel document must be recognized by all parties of the Schengen Agreement.

c) Bring a couple of extra, notarized copies of the photo page with you for the Temporary Residence Permit process.

Proof of Health & Insurance: Each applicant must have medical insurance that meets the Schengen Community Requirements. Regulations for the Schengen Visa state: "... applicants shall prove that they are in possession of adequate and valid travel (or other) medical insurance to cover any expenses which might arise in connection with repatriation for medical reasons, urgent medical attention and/or emergency hospital treatment or death, during their stay(s) on the territory of the Member States. The insurance shall be valid throughout the territory of the Member States and cover the entire period of the person's intended stay or transit. The minimum coverage shall be EUR 30,000" (per applicant).
If you have existing insurance coverage that includes the features noted above, your proof of medical insurance can be an invoice or your annual statement showing the name of the insurance company, policy holder names, the dates that this coverage is valid and proof of repatriation and evacuation coverage. If you don't currently have insurance with these features, look into a travel insurance plan or an annual plan that covers you in Portugal. Many sources provide travel insurance policies to support Schengen Visa applicants. Once you arrive in Portugal, you will find several options for a low-cost, high-quality medical insurance plan with networks covering where you live.

Some consuls have also requested a letter from a doctor stating that you are in good health and free from any communicable disease; if your consul doesn't request this with your Visa application, you might be asked by the SEF in Portugal to produce it for your Residence Permit application. It might also be useful when you apply for medical insurance in Portugal.

Proof of Accommodations: This requirement has been in flux during the last year without any advance warning. Changes were imposed by the San Francisco consul requiring that temporary accommodations be contracted and paid in advance for a 6 month duration while also rejecting hotel and AirBnB contracts if the invoices aren't registered with Financias, the Portuguese taxing authority. Other consuls have accepted proof of 3 months' paid accommodations without proof of registration at Financias. The more rigorous requirements in San Francisco could become standard with all consulates so review the 'comments' section of this post to keep informed.
Proof of accommodations can be any of the following:

a Rental Contract showing your name as it appears on your application and documents, the property address, owner's name and the contract period;
a paid Hotel Confirmation stating name, address and telephone number of the hotel, including confirmation number;
a home Purchase Agreement; or
a letter from someone with whom you'll stay. If staying with family or friends, submit an official letter of invitation (Term of Responsibility Form)signed by your host. The host's signature must be notarized in Portugal and a copy of your host's Identity Card included.
Some San Francisco applicants have continued to use AirBnB but worked with the owner to produce a 6 month contract. Registration of a contract with Financias is the owner/landlord's responsibility.

Travel Reservations or Tickets: Half of the consulates are requiring proof of pre-paid outgoing and return travel with the return travel scheduled prior to the expiration of your one year of residency. Half are not... so ask your consulate! Some consulates have accepted reservations versus purchased tickets, but a proof of purchase is often preferred and is specifically called for in the regulations. Buying plane tickets when you don't know when you'll get your Visa seems risky, but your Visa is good for four months, thus providing a wide travel window. You can assume that the application process—if you use the FBI versus a channeler--might take 20 weeks at the outside and plan your departure accordingly.
Items 1-8 must be submitted together and in duplicate to the Portuguese consulate responsible for your state (see list at end of article). Consult the current Fees Table regarding the payment to include with your application package.

What's Next, or "Part 2"

In approximately 3 to 4 weeks you should receive a letter or email from your respective Portuguese consulate approving your Visa application and requesting your passport along with an addressed, pre-paid, return envelope. The consulate will affix a Type 1 or Type D "Temporary Residence Visa" to your Passport and return it to you within two weeks. This Visa expires in four months and allows you to return home and re-enter Portugal two times during the 4 months plus unlimited travel in the Schengen zone.

As I stated earlier, this is a two part process; at this point you'll be ready for Part 2, getting your Titulo de Residencia Temporária (Temporary Residence Permit). On arrival in Portugal, make an appointment at your local Serviço de Estrangeiros e Fronteiras (SEF) office to complete the process. Regulations indicate that you must make your appointment in person at the SEF office nearest your place of residence. However, due to the high volume of applications, SEF is currently asking applicants to call or sometimes allowing only online requests for an appointment. Try the phone call first, reaching the SEF Customer Contact Center via these numbers: (+351) 808 202 653 or (+351) 808 202 653. The Center is open from 9:00am to 5:30pm. You'll get a recorded menu. If you wait until the end of the recording a person who speaks English will come on the line. If your call isn't answered, go online at www.sef.pt to see if they've implemented an online-only appointment request process.

In addition to the increased volume of applications, SEF is undertaking a 'work slow-down'. Appointments are often set well past the date that your Temporary Visa expires. In this case, ask SEF to send you an email noting the date of your appointment. This email essentially extends your visa to the date of your appointment, so print it out and keep it with your passport to prove your visa didn't expire.

The appointment itself takes less than an hour, but you might spend the entire day waiting, as many SEF offices give you an appointed time to get an appointment, not to meet with the official. Arrive early to get the better actual appointment slots.

This is when all your extra copies and Application forms will be required. Be overly prepared:

a) Some SEF offices request that you provide two more passport-style photos while others have photographing equipment on site that they prefer to use or are accessing the biometric data from the Portuguese consulate where you applied.

b) SEF has a list of documents you must produce for this, your first, appointment. See the article How to Get Your First Residence Permit at Expat Exchange for a list and explanation of those documents.

c) Documentation requirements change a bit depending on the whim of the officials with whom you are working and efforts to improve the process. Being prepared with copies of all of your original documents will save you a return visit to SEF.

Within two to six weeks after SEF approval, your Titulo de Residencia Temporária (Temporary Residence Permit) card will be ready...arriving at your home, your local post office or your local SEF office. Your first Residence Permit expires one year from the date of issuance, or the expiration or your visa, whichever is sooner. Going forward, two consecutive two-year permits are granted. At the 5th year, you can apply for a Permanent Residence Permit that is renewed every 5 years. A minimum language proficiency (A2) is required to obtain a Permanent Residence Permit along with proof of financial means, accommodations, a Portuguese criminal record check and medical insurance.

Because it takes so long to get that first appointment with SEF, you'll likely apply for your NIF, Número de Identificação Fiscal, before getting your Permit. The NIF is issued by your local tax office (Finanças). The NIF is required in order to open a bank account, buy a car or apply for a credit card, among many other transactions. Since 2017, Financias is requiring that you have a Financial Guarantor with you to get your NIF. As defined earlier, this is a permanent resident or citizen of Portugal willing to assume your financial responsibility if you default. Financias states that the role of Financial Guarantor expires in one year'

Of course if you get a residence before we leave the E.U. it will be simpler. The big question is though if we leave with no deal will those residence visas still be valid or will people have to reapply as a non E.U. citizen. Even if you don't what happens when the visa expires. There are still many unkowns in the situation

 

[greeny]

Jordan
Thanks for this information about non EU applying for residency. I am British but recognise a lot of the requirements as things i was asked to produce when obtaining my residency at Lagoa 3 years ago. It would appear that Lagoa are not differentiating between EU and non EU applicants and are asking for the full list for everyone regardless of origin.
Or maybe, as is often the case here, the person dealing with my case was either ill-informed or just bloody minded and decided to give me the run around.
I am going to the camara with my wife to get her residency in 2 weeks time-ish so it will interesting to see what their requirements are for her. I'll report back on the outcome.

just on the separate point of there being no rush to get residency, apparently its estimated there are between 40 and 50 thousand Brits living in Portugal at the moment who are not registered and fly under the radar here. If they all suddenly decide to go for residency there may be backlogs and big queues. I'd advise people to go and get it as soon as they can before the rush occurs.

 

[lindsay]

If there are up to 50,000 Brits living under the radar in Portugal, just do the arithmetic. If each spent only 1000 euros a year there, and if they
each spent 10,000 a year. Would any country, even the most administratively finicky, risk losing this local business??

The same thinking goes IMHO for the latest Macron threat today on visas for visiting Brits.

 

[RupertW]

If there are up to 50,000 Brits living under the radar in Portugal, just do the arithmetic. If each spent only 1000 euros a year there, and if they
each spent 10,000 a year. Would any country, even the most administratively finicky, risk losing this local business??

The same thinking goes IMHO for the latest Macron threat today on visas for visiting Brits.

If economic logic ruled a country then we wouldn't be talking about Brexit at all.

 

[nortada]

Just on the separate point of there being no rush to get residency, apparently its estimated there are between 40 and 50 thousand Brits living in Portugal at the moment who are not registered and fly under the radar here. If they all suddenly decide to go for residency there may be backlogs and big queues. I'd advise people to go and get it as soon as they can before the rush occurs.

I have been back in Portugal for over 2 weeks and have been privy to a number of discussions and it is my impression that, even though it is reversible, very few Brits are contemplating getting residencia.

The main concerns expressed are the implications to tax, licenses, boat flag etc. so many hold the view that rather than get residencia, if things become awkward post Brexit, they will sell up and return to the UK.

 

[jordanbasset]

If there are up to 50,000 Brits living under the radar in Portugal, just do the arithmetic. If each spent only 1000 euros a year there, and if they
each spent 10,000 a year. Would any country, even the most administratively finicky, risk losing this local business??

The same thinking goes IMHO for the latest Macron threat today on visas for visiting Brits.

I suppose the question is what exactly are these people doing. If living under the radar are they working in the grey economy, not paying income tax etc and doing a job that a local could do. Or are they all retired, paying their share and contributing to the economy. I suspect if it is like the Spanish costas it will be a mixture of the two so it will not be a simple sum gain.

 

[Graham376]

I suppose the question is what exactly are these people doing. If living under the radar are they working in the grey economy, not paying income tax etc and doing a job that a local could do. Or are they all retired, paying their share and contributing to the economy. I suspect if it is like the Spanish costas it will be a mixture of the two so it will not be a simple sum gain.

Most are retired but some are IT workers, working on board. Working the grey economy in Portugal is harder than in UK, particularly as a stranger. To be a builder needs a license and to obtain goods at trade prices needs a fiscal number which is entered on invoice, a copy of which goes to the tax man. They also have rewards for shopping people to the tax man.

 

[Graham376]

many hold the view that rather than get residencia, if things become awkward post Brexit, they will sell up and return to the UK.

All the better for those of us remaining

 

[nortada]

All the better for those of us remaining

All 4 of us.

 

[nortada]

For those in Portugal who cannot access this week's Portugal News.

New UK Ambassador (Chris Sainty) in whirlwind of contacts as Brexit nears - http://epaper.theportugalnews.com/mobile/index.html#p=4

The Ambassador recommends that Brits, who have yet to do so, should register with their local authority (CAMARA) and obtain their residence card in order to retain their rights in Portugal.

 

[BigJoe]

Good to hear a voice from Spain. :encouragement:

There is a family house in Ayamonte so we have an interest in how this will pan out for folks in Spain.

Only thing I could suggest is, you could consider some time cruising/berthing in Portugal?

The other thing, rather than rely on the anecdotal advice from others (who often prove to be false prophets), just use them for pointers but do your own research, first hand.

As you can see from earlier posts on this thread, countries rules and attitudes towards residency in their country vary markedly and even different authorities in the same country may take a totally different line.

I seem to recall that a few years back some regions in Spain were hot on matriculation boat tax, sailing qualifications and equipment scales but Atlantic Andalusia was very laid back on the self-same issues.

No doubt British friends in Spain will be able to give you much more detail.

Really hope it all works out for you and following you qualifying for the Portuguese Bar, may I rely on your services?

Pro bono of course! :encouragement:

Thanks, this thread is just the kick up the backside we have needed.

Looks like we can get Spanish residency and will start the ball rolling next week.

 

[nortada]

Thanks, this thread is just the kick up the backside we have needed.

Looks like we can get Spanish residency and will start the ball rolling next week.

Think we have gone just about as far as we can in Portugal so will be very interested to hear how you get on in Spain.

Best of luck.

 

[nortada]

Now in Spain and having had short discussion with a Brit, who has recently got a Certificate of Residency in Spain, it would appear that the procedure is almost identical to Portugal and not much more difficult.

However, rather than a boat, they own property.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

This might be on interest. It's certainly one to watch.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-law-proposed-to-safeguard-uk-citizens-healthcare-abroad-after-brexit?utm_source=00d6f092-7cb6-49d1-a7d0-c2c16dc8b5f7&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Incidentally, we have just used the DWP S1 form (as pensioners) to transfer our healthcare to the Greek EFKA national system (it used to be called IKA). It's a pretty torturous process but if anyone wants to know how to do it PM me.

 

[greeny]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

This might be on interest. It's certainly one to watch.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-law-proposed-to-safeguard-uk-citizens-healthcare-abroad-after-brexit?utm_source=00d6f092-7cb6-49d1-a7d0-c2c16dc8b5f7&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Incidentally, we have just used the DWP S1 form (as pensioners) to transfer our healthcare to the Greek EFKA national system (it used to be called IKA). It's a pretty torturous process but if anyone wants to know how to do it PM me.

Thanks Tony, interesting reading. Good news for Brits abroad if it is successful.
I assume (yes I know) that it would be a reciprocal agreement, therefore it will mean UK NHS waiting lists and the perceived reduction in overload of the system will not change after brexit. Now that's a surprise. Another figment of the "leavers" imagination it would seem. Just like the bus with the poster, disappearing over the horizon never to be seen again.
Sorry Nortada, don't want to derail the thread but couldn't resist the observation.