Seegull
Member
Sounds like a plan!...the search continues.
Two questions for you:
1. What is your boat?
2. How much time would you need?
UK circum capable <27ft yacht?
- Thread starter Seegull
- Start date
Two questions for you:
1. What is your boat?
2. How much time would you need?
Gixer
Well-known member
1. What is your boat? It’s a 1990 British Hunter 27 twin fin (bilge keel)
2. How much time would you need? 6/8 weeks roughly. I’m a Premier Marina berth holder so could leave her in a marina for a while without extra cost.
2. How much time would you need? 6/8 weeks roughly. I’m a Premier Marina berth holder so could leave her in a marina for a while without extra cost.
Seegull
Member
Bilge/Twin Keel: are they as stable as a single fin/long keel in a reasonable swell?
2 months is my aim. May/June.
dunedin
Well-known member
In which case, if short of time, I would skip the long boring delivery sail and just truck the boat up to Largs and sail the interesting bits in the time you have available
Refueler
Well-known member
Looks like you've been listening to die-hard fin keel owners !!
I own a Fin keel 38ft and a 25ft Bilge Keel .... I have had both in weather that even Seagulls stay at home !! Did I concern that one was a BK ?? Not at all.
There is one item that will be evident - BK's do 'slam' ... basically when they heel and then go back toward upright - the pocket between the keels 'slams' .. it can be loud at times ... once you understand what it is .. its fine.
A BK'r may exhibit more tendency to heel in the first few degrees .. but once heeled it steadies ..
BK boats have crossed - oceans ... a Centaur was featured years ago in YBW for crossing the Atlantic ...
I used to run an Owners Group for Sunrider / Searider Motor sailers (24 - 25ft) ... they were produced in Fin and BK versions. The BK being the most popular. Owners were in Canada, South Africa and South America as example ...
Boat were all built in Poole Dorset.
Daverw
Well-known member
I’m just about to do this come April, mostly single handed in our kelt 29, lifting keel, planning to take 4 to 5 months and spend some time in the West of Scotland.
Egret
Member
Bilge keels or lifting keel give more options for places to stop - harbours where you dry out - and also easy for scrubbing or if under water repairs needed. Have a surveyor check boat over, with time for any repairs, before embarking. Pick suitable weather days for passages and you might not need to sail much to windward.
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jwilson
Well-known member
Almost anything if your time is unlimited. If to a timetable - even an approx "must be within 3 months" you start to have to balance speed and ultimate windward ability against comfort. You are in a well forecasted area, no passage should be out of that reasonably reliable forecasted timeframe. It's not a true ocean passage where the boat has to be "bulletproof", even though some of the sections are genuinely challenging.
As others have said, a reliable engine is useful, and there are places where bilge keels could be useful, though far from essential. For a lot of solid, steady boat at little money, a re-engined Centaur (or even better any of the Westerly 31s) takes a lot of beating. Several of the Sadlers also in the frame. But really any boat can do this if you are prepared to wait for wind direction and strength. Long ago when cash-poor but time-rich I did a lot of cruising in very small boats that were a lot less capable than a Centaur/or similar.
Re size, as I get older I find bigger better, steadier and more forgiving. I would no longer cruise open water (sometime in non-perfect weather) in an wooden 18-footer with no guardwires, no roller headsail, no lines-led-back and only a small Seagull outboard as power, even though the Seagull was totally reliable.
I'd seriously consider some 30+ footers, from the 1980s, Much like the Westerlys the van de Stadt Pioniers are a lot of seaworthiess or not much money. And I could point out Sadler 32 for sale that appears structurally sound but needs a lot of serious "tidying". I know the boat.
As others have said, a reliable engine is useful, and there are places where bilge keels could be useful, though far from essential. For a lot of solid, steady boat at little money, a re-engined Centaur (or even better any of the Westerly 31s) takes a lot of beating. Several of the Sadlers also in the frame. But really any boat can do this if you are prepared to wait for wind direction and strength. Long ago when cash-poor but time-rich I did a lot of cruising in very small boats that were a lot less capable than a Centaur/or similar.
Re size, as I get older I find bigger better, steadier and more forgiving. I would no longer cruise open water (sometime in non-perfect weather) in an wooden 18-footer with no guardwires, no roller headsail, no lines-led-back and only a small Seagull outboard as power, even though the Seagull was totally reliable.
I'd seriously consider some 30+ footers, from the 1980s, Much like the Westerlys the van de Stadt Pioniers are a lot of seaworthiess or not much money. And I could point out Sadler 32 for sale that appears structurally sound but needs a lot of serious "tidying". I know the boat.
Stemar
Well-known member
Pretty much any properly maintained sailing yacht over 22 ft will cope with anything you'll want to throw at it. You'll give up long before it will. I got a forecast wrong and found myself well off St Albans Head in comfortably over 30 knots + gusts in a Snapdragon 24. It was very unpleasant - bad enough that Madame forbade me to leave the cockpit, and we needed the engine to make any progress to windward, but I didn't feel that we were in any danger.
Seegull
Member
Lifting keel is an interesting option.
I've seen quite a few from Parker, and euro options from Jeanneau/Etap advertised.
Do people rate them?
Gixer
Well-known member
Quite a lot of boat for £14K
Hunter Horizon 272 For Sale, 8.31m, 1991
Hunter Horizon 272 For Sale, 8.31m, 1991
mrming
Well-known member
Oversimplifying, but there are two types of lift keel boat, ones that can dry out flat (or almost flat) and take the ground, and ones that can’t (and are more about draft reduction).
Boats like the Parker Super Seal 26 and the later 27 / 275 can dry out completely flat. These are super useful in areas where the bottom is forgiving as they can get you right up to the shore in a sheltered anchorage. The trade off is there’s a large centreboard case inside the boat, the keel is actually an unballasted plate, and all ballast is in the bilge. They don’t all have a diesel engine, but the later 275 models do, and all the generations of that boat sail like a witch and would speed up your circumnavigation considerably. There’s also a larger Parker 31 / 325 / 335 which has a large electric / hydraulic wing keel which it can dry out flat on.
The swing keel French designs from Beneteau, Jeanneau, Gib’Sea et al are more about being able to reduce draft (and be easier to trailer). They usually have a swing keel that mostly remains outside the boat, meaning less of a casing inside, although there is usually a lower height box under the table. One model relevant to this thread is the First 260 Spirit / 25.7, which has a diesel inboard and a nice interior for the size. If you fit beaching legs you can dry out flat with care. I had the smaller First 235 which was outboard powered, and while the variable draft was useful I only ever dried out in soft mud. There are lots of scare stories about mud jamming the keel casing but it never happened to me.
Personally I would only entertain a lifting keel boat if I was planning to take the circumnavigation very slowly and explore lots of shallow areas. Otherwise it’s not worth the additional complexity and I would go for a fin keel boat with a high ballast ratio that has enough sail area to get moving in light airs, and can stand up to it’s canvas and sail to weather in relative comfort in stiffer winds. Lots of good examples have been mentioned already, like the Fulmar (biased as I have one), and various Hunters and Sadlers. I would also add the van de Stadt Dehlers (28, 31, 34) to the list if I was looking for a boat for this purpose.
Daverw
Well-known member
We’ve had our kelt 29 lifting keel for 7 years, really like it, its design swings the keel leaving a completely flat bottom as supposed to a small stub keel like some. The bottom is also a cast steel slipper so it can take hard ground well
ylop
Well-known member
I think it’s remarkable that they are still together after all this time. I’m not sure my brother and I would make it round Britain together never mind the world! Even my regular crew would be a test of patience spending 6-8wks in 27ft boat. Solo has its downsides, but so does crew!
Not sure if you have many sailing friends, but we certainly have many who are not sailors but enjoy joinjng in - I’m pretty sure if I said I was going to do a round Britain I’d have a queue of offers from people willing to come for a week at a time - at least for the more “interesting” legs. Of course that then creates its own pressure of needing to be in the right place for crew changes etc.
That will be handy for the south coast - where marinas are most expensive but depending on where you start/finish isn’t necessarily the places you are most likely to get “stuck” for a while.
I do understand some people want to go all the way round, and that has some particular feeling of achievement / right of passage, especially if you do go “all the way” so you can join in sailing club bar “oh you took the short cut” comments… But I shared a pontoon finger with some people on a round Britain (via the canal) last year and they were rushing the best bits to try and stick to a 7 week schedule. That said a bilge keel might make many of the east coast legs more interesting as you can visit the many drying harbours along the way - but if you do, tides with dictate arrival and departure times and so progress may be slow.
Refueler
Well-known member
People think that the stub keel version of lifting keel cannot stand on their own ... sorry but that is not correct. Many happy hours as a kid on my Fathers lift keel Snapdragon - which had a stub keel ... sitting on hard and soft ground.
That's just one example. many are seen on drying moorings happily standing up.
Of course if the keel is a swing keel and you still have a narrow keel edge under the hull - that is a different matter and then its either soft mud or legs.
I still suggest Bilge Keel as the way to go ... there's good reason why the UK was the main area to develop and use the BK ... it has many little tributaries / bolt-holes ... wonderful little creeks that the BK can explore - that no fin keeler can even start to consider.
Tranona
Well-known member
Maybe, but that was 40 years ago and suited the times because drying or shallow moorings were all that was available. No twin keel boats have been built in any numbers in the last 25 years. Even when Hunter Legend built a factory in Portland to build such boats in the early 2000s it failed.
The OP is planning on a 2 month trip which is just about doable but leaves no time for exploring tidal rivers. A fin. keel has no constraints
Refueler
Well-known member
HL and Portland ? Bad example to quote ... the failure was not due to twin keels ... there was good reason they failed importing a crap USA Intercostal design into UK waters ....
I knew a number of owners who fell for the HL sales and later regretted it ...
I watched a new delivery into a marina ... I was on the fuel dock. Boat was being handed over to new owner later that week. Delivery crew backed her into the opposing pontoon - nothing hard ... any other boat would have shrugged it off - the sugar scoop opened up like someone had taken a tin opener to it ...
Guy doing the fuel - just remarked : Another p*** o* **** !!
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
I maintain that there still is a type of yacht with twin keels that is well worth it. Though ours has just the one. We discuss the possibility of a round Britain trip from time to time, but can’t imagine having the time to do it. We seem to make ourselves busier all the time. 2 months away in the UK sailing season is inconceivable. We wouldn’t be the first in a DF920, not by a long way. Not that I’m suggesting it for the OP, though a cruisy cat is a possible.
Refueler
Well-known member
Are you saying that the criteria for a Bilge Keel has changed so BK is no longer a viable option .... sorry T .. but that's so wrong.
Plus the budget guy is talking - read it carefully - its no doubt he will aim at the lower end figure he quoted - based on his later comment about funds after. Plenty of good BK / Fin boats in that budget range ..
Plus as we all know trying to circum UK or anywhere to a time table is near impossible ... so those bolt holes and escape points become important. That 2 months will easily extend and then what's he going to do with a boat forced to moor and store in a marina ? With a BK'r - he can stuff it up a creek somewhere at vastly less cost while he works out how to complete the circum.
Sorry but just pushing the Fin Keel is limiting. I am not against Fin Keel - I own a Fin Keel boat as well as a BK'r ...
I look at what OP wants to do and suggest based on what I would expect to encounter doing the circum.
Rhylsailer99
Active member
Hurley 22, It is a small boat, but I have seen some great videos on YouTube of these boats crossing oceans.