TSS Clarification

[dunedin]

Races like the Fastnet tend to make TSSs exclusion zones.

Makes a lot of sense, as otherwise risk of lots of protests between competitors about people not crossing at 90degrees, and everybody trying to push a bit more to gain an advantage. Plus impact on shipping of hundreds of boats crossing the TSS.
Making the corners effectively marks of the course removes all this ambiguity, and extremely easy to police via trackers (unlike the ambiguity of 90 degrees heading, which is open to barrack room lawyers arguing due to “tide” or “leeway”)

 

[capnsensible]

Sorry, don't see any ambiguity. A crossing vessel must do so at 90 degrees to the traffic lane. Ignore tide and leeway, it's the quickest way. This is taught on theory courses.

 

[dunedin]

Sorry, don't see any ambiguity. A crossing vessel must do so at 90 degrees to the traffic lane. Ignore tide and leeway, it's the quickest way. This is taught on theory courses.

Of course it is - but that is a Heading of 90 degrees. The COG may be different due to tide and/or leeway.
For a race there is no way of policing the Heading, only the COG. If somebody crosses strictly at a Heading of 90 degrees across, they may feel they have lost out a long way to a competitor who may have pushed this to 85 degrees - or 80 degrees - or more. Hence leading to protests and the ambiguity, as the protestee claims their COG reflects the "tide" or "leeway". A jury nightmare, Hence now just ban entry, which is easily policed by the trackers (and I think a few did get penalties as a result?)

 

[capnsensible]

OK I'm talking cruising, not racing. Simply position your vessel at 90 degrees to traffic flow. A surprising number of leisure vessels don't bother though in TSS schemes in many places...

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Sorry, don't see any ambiguity. A crossing vessel must do so at 90 degrees to the traffic lane. Ignore tide and leeway, it's the quickest way. This is taught on theory courses.

That is not an answer to the question asked. The question is the meaning of 'shall not impede the safe passage' in rule 10j which appears to contradict rule 10a. Perhaps you could give your opinion on that.

 

[B27]

....

I have never heard it suggested that a small craft should not cross a TSS at all. ....

(c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.

That might mean you should not cross the lanes unless there's no option.
Most yachts on typical passages have the choice of going around the TSS lanes.

 

[arc1]

OK I'm talking cruising, not racing. Simply position your vessel at 90 degrees to traffic flow. A surprising number of leisure vessels don't bother though in TSS schemes in many places...

And use auxillary engine to achieve it if required. Dutch sail training vessel OOW prosecuted for not doing so - didn't want to risk accidental gybe so heading was off. Authorities view was you have engine available, use it to achieve heading as close to 90 as practicable.

 

[B27]

That is not an answer to the question asked. The question is the meaning of 'shall not impede the safe passage' in rule 10j which appears to contradict rule 10a. Perhaps you could give your opinion on that.

See also Rule 9, narrow channels.
This can place obligations on a vessel being overtaken, but explicitly does not relieve an overtaking vessel of its duty to keep clear.
Everybody has obligations.
It's different from the racing rules where a right of way boat may often alter course as she pleases.

Don't forget that 'shall not impede' applies to small/sailing vessels following the TSS (or narrow channel) as well as those crossing it.

 

[Momac]

The question is the meaning of 'shall not impede the safe passage' in rule 10j

 

[Pye_End]

SAFE.

10 i) '....fishing shall not impede the passage.....'
10 j) '.....sailing vessel shall not impede the SAFE passage.....'

Can't see the authors putting SAFE in for no reason, and answers the difficulties people have with this rule.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

SAFE.

10 i) '....fishing shall not impede the passage.....'
10 j) '.....sailing vessel shall not impede the SAFE passage.....'

Can't see the authors putting SAFE in for no reason, and answers the difficulties people have with this rule.

Kinda. But not the specific Colregs intent of the word “impede”… or am I being obtuse. I’ve obviously not properly understood something here.

 

[Pye_End]

Kinda. But not the specific Colregs intent of the word “impede”… or am I being obtuse. I’ve obviously not properly understood something here.

Might help if you substitute some of the words from Martyn's post, eg 'hinder' or 'obstruct'. Similar enough. Ie. 10i fishing boats are required not to get in the way of ships (ie fishing boats are give way in a TSS), but 10j is different - sailing vessels can expect the usual stand-on/give way rules to apply, so long as it is not putting the other vessel in danger.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

View attachment 164175

The question is not the dictionary meaning of impede, which everyone already knows, but the meaning of the seemingly ambiguous rules 10a and 10j. Try having a go at explaining that.

 

[Momac]

The question is not the dictionary meaning of impede, which everyone already knows, but the meaning of the seemingly ambiguous rules 10a and 10j. Try having a go at explaining that.

1.You are supposed to keep out of the way of ships and should plan to do so and adjust your course appropriately so you don't impede ships.
2. If you make a mistake such as misjudging the speed of a ship and get too close the ship and if you are the stand on vessel you should stand on.
3. If the ship kills you when you are the stand on vessel it will not be your fault.

 

[arc1]

From Cockcroft and Latimer's guide to collision avoidance rules. Not to impede - navigate in such a way to avoid the development of a risk of collision. Not to impede passage or safe passage - take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
If risk of collision becomes apparent then normal rules apply.
If vessels still hit each other then no one will be blame free!

 

[B27]

The question is not the dictionary meaning of impede, which everyone already knows, but the meaning of the seemingly ambiguous rules 10a and 10j. Try having a go at explaining that.

I don't see any ambiguity in 10a..
Ships in a TSS must avoid all the vessels which they must keep clear of in the absence of a TSS.
10j : (j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
So, a ship might be required to keep out of your way, but you are prohibited from impeding their passage. I think that means you are not allowed to create a situation where the ship would be 'impeded' by keeping out of your way. Maybe that means it's OK for them to have to make a small alteration of course to 'keep out of your way', but it's not OK for them to have to leave their lane or call for full steam astern?

That is the reality is it not? Most vessels try to avoid 'risk of collision' situations developing before the rules come into play.

The possible conflict is:

"Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel​

(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed."
But I think there are always limitations to that. A sailing vessel is not obliged to remain on a tack forever in case some power vessel might need to keep clear.

It's very much about what exactly is meant by 'not impede' and 'keep out of the way of', and if you're a seaplane, they throw in 'keep well clear of'.

"

Rule 18 - Responsibilities Between Vessels​

Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:....
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
....
(iv) a sailing vessel.

So rule 10a implies no obligations are removed by rule 10, but rule 18 says there are exceptions.

By way of contrast, in the 'Racing Rules of Sailing' 'keep clear' is fairly rigorously defined.

 

[Pye_End]

The Cockcroft and Latimer's guide quote is interesting. It appears that there is a distinction between 'impede the passage' and 'impede the safe passage', the former being defined, but the latter isn't.

However, since it goes on to say '
'When vessels are in sight of each other and are approaching in such
a way that risk of collision seems likely to develop the Rules of Part B
Section I1 become applicable'

I don't have radar, although the development of AIS perhaps makes it more realistic to identify very early targets, maybe making it possible to be in the 'shall not impede' phase (whatever that means), but my personal experience with dodging particularly Channel shipping is very much in sight of each other (unless limited visibility), and therefore in the more normal COLREGS phase.

http://kashti.ir/files/ENBOOKS/Collision Avoidance Rules Guide 6E.pdf has a bit more in the rule 10 section which refers back to this. It looks as though the application is defined by case law, not by the regs themselves.

 

[capnsensible]

That is not an answer to the question asked. The question is the meaning of 'shall not impede the safe passage' in rule 10j which appears to contradict rule 10a. Perhaps you could give your opinion on that.

Correct it isn't. I was responding to another post!