Tru design Seacocks in the engine space.

[sailaboutvic]

The annoying thing about all surveyors (property and boat) is that they seldom say anything that you can hang your hat on…every report I’ve read is frustrating

As I have posted before , if your new to boating or an insurance company insists on a surveyor report fine
but for a lot of us it’s a waste of money , by all means get the rig check or if you can do it yourself renew rigging especially if it’s due or looks doggie ,
and engine if your that’s unsure ask a good engineer to take a look .
but as for most of the rest , what is there that most of us who own boat long term that we can’t see and find for our self , plus I found when I told a seller I wasn’t going to have a survey and needed to check the boat myself , they was very happy to remove the odd panel , where surveyor probability say in his report there acces he couldn’t get to .

 

[Portofino]

Glass-filled nylon, is not nylon. It is effectively like GRP (i.e. fibreglass).

Glass-filled nylon fitting are used by all car manufactruers for fittings in their engine bays such as fuel injection systems.

Cos it’s cheaper to manufacture and fit .A lot of VAG cars eg Bentley have none metal vac lines which over time embrittle in the hot temp cycles , with a bit of vibration end up cracking .Now a tiny crack in your vac lines may go initially unnoticed but eventually a parameter goes out of spec and it throws a code .Car still to all intents and purposes fully functions to the punter .If it were to conk out the aftermath isn’t as severe as a boat seacock leaking .

The after market (marque specialist ) prefers way to deal with this is drop the engine + g box and replace all the plastic lines with metal lines .Job done .

We know why VAG went for plastic in the first place cos it’s cheaper .

You get it with other components as you say eg radiators with aluminium cores glued to plastic end caps .= cheaper .The plastic goes eventually .Obviously the likes of BMW just want to last during the warranty period , they are not interested when the car reaches 15 - 30 yrs old .
Those are age ranges for boats and punters as we know are sensitive to these parts busting .There’s also a % recyclability aspect to the motor industry moving away from metal components to factor in decisions.There isn’t this yet in boats .

The best radiators are a copper braised fin set up with metal ends = expensive very expensive.


Now with boats the metal are being replaced not necessarily on cost but perceived longevity.Although proper bronze are expensive and I would be looking for these in the machinery spaces of a quality boat .

A bit sceptical of OEM none metal fitted in the ER .

 

[bendyone]

Wonder if OP is even coding or whether the surveyor’s advice was implied as universal?

No, its an older boat which I feel would benefit form new seacock.

 

[Portofino]

The annoying thing about all surveyors (property and boat) is that they seldom say anything that you can hang your hat on…every report I’ve read is frustrating

Have you notified your ins Co of your recent modification (s) ? Thinking the none metal seacock fitted recently in the machinery space .

I had an insurance survey done recently and it basically consisted of pic and lists of stuff with remarks like “ good “ “ acceptable “ “ no action needed “

Pretty detailed to give you an idea it mentioned i didn’t have to hand the compass card , which is correct so recommended to only one I might add to re swing the compass .This is despite GPS / plotter etc etc .

A tiny detail but no stone unturned .I thought the survey was ok , pretty good .

I get the point from others about passing responsibility over with cop out statements like “ the bilge was covered not seen “ for the sake of removing a few screws or what ever to properly inspect said space .But I guess if owner is not present they don’t want to get in a liability bun fight of “ you broke “ this or that .

I was present with my surveyor so there was none of this silly cop out language.

 

[Bouba]

Have you notified your ins Co of your recent modification (s) ? Thinking the none metal seacock fitted recently in the machinery space .

I had an insurance survey done recently and it basically consisted of pic and lists of stuff with remarks like “ good “ “ acceptable “ “ no action needed “

Pretty detailed to give you an idea it mentioned i didn’t have to hand the compass card , which is correct so recommended to only one I might add to re swing the compass .This is despite GPS / plotter etc etc .

A tiny detail but no stone unturned .I thought the survey was ok , pretty good .

I get the point from others about passing responsibility over with cop out statements like “ the bilge was covered not seen “ for the sake of removing a few screws or what ever to properly inspect said space .But I guess if owner is not present they don’t want to get in a liability bun fight of “ you broke “ this or that .

I was present with my surveyor so there was none of this silly cop out language.

Our insurance company has never asked for a survey

 

[Sandy]

Cos it’s cheaper to manufacture and fit .A lot of VAG cars eg Bentley have none metal vac lines which over time embrittle in the hot temp cycles , with a bit of vibration end up cracking .Now a tiny crack in your vac lines may go initially unnoticed but eventually a parameter goes out of spec and it throws a code .Car still to all intents and purposes fully functions to the punter .If it were to conk out the aftermath isn’t as severe as a boat seacock leaking .

The after market (marque specialist ) prefers way to deal with this is drop the engine + g box and replace all the plastic lines with metal lines .Job done .

We know why VAG went for plastic in the first place cos it’s cheaper .

You get it with other components as you say eg radiators with aluminium cores glued to plastic end caps .= cheaper .The plastic goes eventually .Obviously the likes of BMW just want to last during the warranty period , they are not interested when the car reaches 15 - 30 yrs old .
Those are age ranges for boats and punters as we know are sensitive to these parts busting .There’s also a % recyclability aspect to the motor industry moving away from metal components to factor in decisions.There isn’t this yet in boats .

The best radiators are a copper braised fin set up with metal ends = expensive very expensive.


Now with boats the metal are being replaced not necessarily on cost but perceived longevity.Although proper bronze are expensive and I would be looking for these in the machinery spaces of a quality boat .

A bit sceptical of OEM none metal fitted in the ER .

And your engineering background is?

 

[lustyd]

Now with boats the metal are being replaced not necessarily on cost but perceived longevity.Although proper bronze are expensive and I would be looking for these in the machinery spaces of a quality boat .

And yet not a single failure has been reported of a TruDesign fitting, and people with 20 year old ones report they are as good as new.

What's your agenda here?

 

[Keith-i]

We know why VAG went for plastic in the first place cos it’s cheaper .

Possibly, but there might also be an element of weight saving to consider and accuracy of manufacture.

I've just fitted Trudesign to replace the DZR on my heads and genuine bronze on the engine intake. Corrosion was a key consideration but also the metal seacocks were getting gradually stiffer and stiffer to operate. I am not concerned about fire risk on the basis that I would have more to worry about than a seacock melting. If there is a fire in the engine room I won't be diving in to close off a seacock, metal or othewise, so it will always come down to the fire retardancy of the plastic piping rather than the skin fitting/seacock anyway.

 

[Trident]

The code only prohibits it in the machinery space but you are right it would be unsettling if it was a thing.

Trudesign etc way safer than the brass fittings fitted to many new CE compliant boats IMO

As “machinery space” covers 6 of my 8 seacocks I did DZR/bronze for the lot.
I wouldn’t have if I wasn’t coding.

I fitted 6 or 7 True Design to a boat that then passed coding with no issues as a charter super yacht two years ago. Now it happens that the two engine bays did not need new seacocks but the separate room for the generator and its fuel tanks did and we had to use the fireproof hose in there to meet coding - so I assume it counts as a machinery space but the coding surveyor had no issue with the seacock. I know anecdote is not evidence but I suspect its very arguable ...

 

[Trident]

Our insurance company has never asked for a survey

Mine did after a full refit of a damaged boat that I had just bought. Not a surprise. The surprise was that they said they needed one on completion of the work, which was after it was launched. They had not specified before splashing the boat - just on completion of all works; some of which is best done in the water. Anyway, when splashed I called them to change to out of commission afloat rather than ashore and they suddenly said - we need a survey. I pointed out that as a 50 foot catamaran I had just had to pay a crane to come out especially to launch us - at £1200 for the day - and was disinclined to do so again (twice to lift and then drop again after a survey) .

To my surprise they agreed and asked for a survey of the hull above the waterline and accepted a few lines from the surveyor that he'd looked at it from the pontoon and it wasn't visibly damaged, listing or sinking and that was basically enough and written in to my documents as "survey completed on xyz date" - completely pointless as the surveyor and underwriter admitted verbally but fine for a very well known and reputable insurer to cover in full with no "clauses"

All madness

 

[Bouba]

Mine did after a full refit of a damaged boat that I had just bought. Not a surprise. The surprise was that they said they needed one on completion of the work, which was after it was launched. They had not specified before splashing the boat - just on completion of all works; some of which is best done in the water. Anyway, when splashed I called them to change to out of commission afloat rather than ashore and they suddenly said - we need a survey. I pointed out that as a 50 foot catamaran I had just had to pay a crane to come out especially to launch us - at £1200 for the day - and was disinclined to do so again (twice to lift and then drop again after a survey) .

To my surprise they agreed and asked for a survey of the hull above the waterline and accepted a few lines from the surveyor that he'd looked at it from the pontoon and it wasn't visibly damaged, listing or sinking and that was basically enough and written in to my documents as "survey completed on xyz date" - completely pointless as the surveyor and underwriter admitted verbally but fine for a very well known and reputable insurer to cover in full with no "clauses"

All madness

So while ashore and you doing all the refit, it wasn’t insured ?

 

[vyv_cox]

The SFIA insisted on all sorts of fire protection: fireproof resin finish in the engine space, gas, fine water spray, metal pipework (even though there has to be a flexi connector) etc, but in the end on the firefighting course we were told "With GRP, even if you've got all this firefighting stuff just get out a mayday and get off as quick as you can"

We watched a boat burn to a total loss in Leros. It was anchored with nobody aboard. We first noticed the smell of burning GRP about 2-3 minutes before I took the first photograph. The three photos shown here were taken at 1024, 1026 and 10 39. The cause was almost certainly electrical, I have no idea whether seacocks were left open or of what type they were. A dreadful indication of how rapidly fire can destroy a boat.

Later that day the wreck was dragged ashore and the remains cut up.

 

[Bouba]

Is there any fire retardant in GRP for boats?

 

[pmagowan]

I think 'plastic' composite through-hulls just make sense. The hull is generally made of similar stuff and we all know metal and sea water are a pain, as are the endless problems with debates about electrical bonding, stiff valves and dezincification etc. These things meet standards so surveyors being slow to update their practice might need called out.

 

[Portofino]

What's your agenda here?

To push using plastic seacocks in the machinery spaces up the agenda .Give them plenty of oxygen to force change .
But first the industry, that’s boat builders , owners , surveyors , coding society’s and last but not least insurance Co s need to have a discussion.

Begs the Q if none metal are that good why hasn’t this discussion already taken place ?

The discussion = Warts and all stress test the various debating points .

Pointless 10 different folks referring to the blow torch u tube vid .= only need one person the first .
Equally pointless 20 different folks saying one after another in post after post “ I will be long gone if the fire is that big ……..” Yeh we all get that .

We need a surveyors and insurance Cos perspective as they appear to be holding the puppet strings in this Punch and Judy show .Nothing new there btw .

 

[billyfish]

Two of mine are in the engine compartment, with plastic hoses connected to them as they were when they were bronze , can't see what the problem is .

 

[Trident]

So while ashore and you doing all the refit, it wasn’t insured ?

No it was insured as out of commission - the confusion was out of commission ashore handout of commission afloat

 

[lustyd]

Begs the Q if none metal are that good why hasn’t this discussion already taken place ?

From what I can tell it's because not enough people are asking, and that's because certain people keep spreading FUD in various boating forums about them being unsuitable or about them being against regulations without providing any evidence for their wild assertions.

If you want the topic to be discussed properly, start by being more evidence focused and don't make any claims without providing some kind of real information from an authority. If you don't know, ask the manufacturer or regulatory body and then quote them.

For what it's worth, I asked both the shop and TruDesign and both confirmed they are perfectly suitable. I have yet to see any real information to the contrary, although I can see how the quote from the coding doc might be misinterpreted by people with an agenda.

 

[stranded]

I think 'plastic' composite through-hulls just make sense. The hull is generally made of similar stuff and we all know metal and sea water are a pain, as are the endless problems with debates about electrical bonding, stiff valves and dezincification etc. These things meet standards so surveyors being slow to update their practice might need called out.

If I lost the sale of my boat because a surveyor said TD seacocks should be swapped out and I refused to replace, could I sue the surveyor for defaming my boat?

 

[lustyd]

You'd be within your rights to require some justification before allowing the contract to dissolve. Surveyors can't just make any wild claim they want to.