To stand on, or not to stand on

[Refueler]

See my post #37. There's text on the video which states that CPA was 100' (ie 30m in modern money). Either he's got AIS or RADAR or he's *really* confident with a hand bearing compass. I'd go for the former. Most others seem to be confidently asserting the ferry was going behind him but videos can be deceptive and with AIS showing 30m CPA at that range I would share the guy's concern (if not necessarily his response).

Noted that .... but as I think many others have experienced ... the ship will keep coming as he is unsure of what that yottie is going to do .... he will be aiming to pass astern and he will turn when he's reasonably confident that yottie is not an idiot or going to tack.

The AIS is interpreting historic info ... not future. Its to assist you to make corrective decisions.

The Yottie in the video IMHO panicked .. he's asking his 'partner' what to do ... that indicates a loss of command.

 

[Deleted member 478]

... and stick the kettle on
[...]
Other options?

And there I was thinking that your boat had no kettle; only an endless supply of Jack Iron Rum, which works too, I'm reliably told

 

[laika]

Noted that .... but as I think many others have experienced ... the ship will keep coming as he is unsure of what that yottie is going to do .... he will be aiming to pass astern and he will turn when he's reasonably confident that yottie is not an idiot or going to tack.

Hence my question about what behaviour can be expected of Greek ferries. In the english channel it would be unusual for a commercial vessel to wait until a mile off and make a sudden big turn: they're more likely to tweak course a little several miles off to minimally maintain their safe CPA. I 'm asking those that have stood on long enough to find out whether the Greek ferries may have a different concept of what constitutes "ample time" when making a course change.

 

[38mess]

Does anyone know the story of John O'Day?

 

[RichardS]

See my post #37. There's text on the video which states that CPA was 100' (ie 30m in modern money). Either he's got AIS or RADAR or he's *really* confident with a hand bearing compass. I'd go for the former. Most others seem to be confidently asserting the ferry was going behind him but videos can be deceptive and with AIS showing 30m CPA at that range I would share the guy's concern (if not necessarily his response).

I'm not sure that he is using his AIS correctly.

I have a transceiver although he might only have a receiver so he may be a bit less confident in it's efficiency but what I do is keep a continuous eye on the CPA from as soon as I perceive a close quarters situation. I also look at whether the other vessel is targeted to pass astern or ahead of me. I then watch whether the CPA is growing larger or getting smaller as the vessels close and whether it is, for example, transitioning from ahead to astern. This makes it easy to decide whether the situation is resolving or getting worse.

The guy in the video seems to have looked at the CPA some distance out and then ignored it after that .... which rather negates its main benefit.

Richard

 

[RichardS]

Does anyone know the story of John O'Day?

We all know the story of Michael O'Day but, as it's a load of rubbish, and also refers to a nonsense called "right of way", I doubt whether any of us ever want to hear it again.

Richard

 

[38mess]

We all know the story of Michael O'Day but, as it's a load of rubbish, and also refers to a nonsense called "right of way", I doubt whether any of us ever want to hear it again.

Richard

Why not, it's great advice. And since when did you become the spokesperson for this forum?

 

[Resolution]

So what would the majority do in this situation?

Guessing prob about a couple miles away if the ship was obviously holding course & speed I'd be looking at either heaving too to stop for a few minutes and stick the kettle on or tack well clear of his stern . But certainly a big and obvious change to show 'I'm not going near you!!'
Rule 2 -
"and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger." -
in this case the well known limitations of greek ferries to do much in the way of collision avoidance....

Other options?

The waters around Knidos / Datca are lovely waters in summer, bags of room etc. I think the key here is the bit of Rule 17 which says the stand on vessel shall "keep her course and speed". If there's one thing that is difficult to do when running goosewinged it is maintaining a steady course and speed. Given that we think the ferry was aiming to cross close to the yacht's stern, a sudden lull or a puff from 20 degrees different would result in a change to either course or speed. So unless the wind had been rock steady for some long period, I would have taken the early action (long before the owner did) of putting engine on, rounding up and tacking back for five minutes to get right out of the way of the ferry. Then when it was clearly passed, tack back and go back onto my original course. No drama, just ten minutes or so of action. (And note that the yacht did not appear to have a preventer on the main; if it had done then rounding up could have been a problem ).

 

[capnsensible]

I'm familiar with the IRPCS thanks. There's nothing which says that you even need to place yourself in the position of being a stand-on vessel in the first place. Simply keep well out of the way of large vessels, you can usually see them coming from a long way off. Making guesses about whether they've seen you, intend to do anything about it or even have anyone on watch is just unnecessary. Get out of the way.

In congested waters it is not always possible to make the alterations you suggest. Nor is 'guessing' . Applying the rules when you find yourself in a close quarters situation is clearly important. Very easy and sensible to keep clear at the start if it's a single contact. But learning to judge speed and distance of other vessels becomes increasingly important with more traffic.
People who race or sail in places like the Solent get very good at that. Often without even being aware of what they are learning.
It's quite safe to pass ahead of a stream of ships on a yacht if you are practiced.,

 

[GHA]

And there I was thinking that your boat had no kettle; only an endless supply of Jack Iron Rum, which works too, I'm reliably told

Jack Iron was kept in the kettle

 

[RichardS]

Why not, it's great advice. And since when did you become the spokesperson for this forum?

Since I surpassed the momentous 20k watershed, I guess.

Anyway, paste it up if you like ..... but await the incoming.

Richard

 

[GHA]

Does anyone know the story of John O'Day?

Heard that one, he didn't know the IRPCS and got run down because of it.
Idiot

 

[laika]

I have a transceiver although he might only have a receiver so he may be a bit less confident in it's efficiency but what I do is keep a continuous eye on the CPA from as soon as I perceive a close quarters situation. I also look at whether the other vessel is targeted to pass astern or ahead of me. I then watch whether the CPA is growing larger or getting smaller as the vessels close and whether it is, for example, transitioning from ahead to astern. This makes it easy to decide whether the situation is resolving or getting worse.

If both vessels maintain course and speed it's only current and leeway which is going to change CPA. If the other vessel has its rudder over, your AIS should tell you that as well as a changing CPA. A CPA of 30m is worrying at the distance that ferry appeared to be whether ahead or astern but you are of course right about the need to monitor: My AIS doesn't tell me ahead/astern so if I'm worried about a target, from a fair way off I'll let go the sheets a bit and see whether CPA increases (I'm going to pass behind) or decreases (I'm going to pass ahead). I can then plan my rule 17 strategy accordingly. I'll also note the COG of dodgy looking targets to see whether they subsequently tweak by a couple of degrees to avoid me

 

[38mess]

Since I surpassed the momentous 20k watershed, I guess.

You really believe this don't you?

 

[38mess]

Heard that one, he didn't know the IRPCS and got run down because of it.
Idiot

I think he knew the rules, and applied them come what may, instead of using common sense. It's a hypothetical story anyway aimed at Capt calamity type weekend sailors.

 

[GHA]

I think he knew the rules, and applied them come what may, instead of using common sense. It's a hypothetical story anyway aimed at Capt calamity type weekend sailors.

He didn't know the rules at all, if he did he'd know and apply rule 2 and that there's no such thing as right of way.
Just another wafi.
Bit of a dangerous story really, other wafi's hear the tale and think they know better than to learn and adhere to the irpcs, which is all you need.

 

[RichardS]

I think he knew the rules, and applied them come what may, instead of using common sense. It's a hypothetical story anyway aimed at Capt calamity type weekend sailors.

In general, sailors who know the rules don't get killed.

Richard

 

[Refueler]

I think he knew the rules, and applied them come what may, instead of using common sense. It's a hypothetical story anyway aimed at Capt calamity type weekend sailors.

Sorry but that even with the rubbish video is simply not correct. Ever read the part about maintain course and speed ??? If he had done that - likelihood is there would be no video to moan into ...

He fluffed about ... like headless chicken

 

[RichardS]

Sorry but that even with the rubbish video is simply not correct. Ever read the part about maintain course and speed ??? If he had done that - likelihood is there would be no video to moan into ...

He fluffed about ... like headless chicken

John O'Day or his brother, Michael?

Richard

 

[Catalina36]

In congested waters it is not always possible to make the alterations you suggest. Nor is 'guessing' . Applying the rules when you find yourself in a close quarters situation is clearly important. Very easy and sensible to keep clear at the start if it's a single contact. But learning to judge speed and distance of other vessels becomes increasingly important with more traffic.
People who race or sail in places like the Solent get very good at that. Often without even being aware of what they are learning.
It's quite safe to pass ahead of a stream of ships on a yacht if you are practiced.,

Ah, the Solent. 55 years so far.