To stand on, or not to stand on

[Refueler]

It would be weird to go to the trouble of goosewinging if your motor was running

Given the amount of time video was on cockpit bench ... I think we would have heard an engine ?

 

[Dutch01527]

Looking at the video again I think that the Ferry was intending to pass to the sail boats stern. When the sail boat stopped/slowed by turning to wind that plan was no longer feasible so the ferry had to take action and signalled that by the blast on the wistle.

Sailboat decided to hold it’s course and speed initially and the ferry was working with that. Sailboat then panicked and stopped which caused an issue. I would still take the view in the sail boat that it would be easier and safer for me to keep out of the way by an early and decisive alteration of course to starboard and then pass behind the ferry just in case the ferry had not picked me up.

On the ferry the sail boat was one of hundreds that they encounter every week and tweaking their course to pass the sail boat safely when reasonably close is easy. Different perspective for the sailboat because the ferry is huge and moving very quickly.

 

[Refueler]

Looking at the video again I think that the Ferry was intending to pass to the sail boats stern. When the sail boat stopped/slowed by turning to wind that plan was no longer feasible so the ferry had to take action and signalled that by the blast on the wistle.

Sailboat decided to hold it’s course and speed initially and the ferry was working with that. Sailboat then panicked and stopped which caused an issue. I would still take the view in the sail boat that it would be easier and safer for me to keep out of the way by an early and decisive alteration of course to starboard and then pass behind the ferry just in case the ferry had not picked me up.

On the ferry the sail boat was one of hundreds that they encounter every week and tweaking their course to pass the sail boat safely when reasonably close is easy. Different perspective for the sailboat because the ferry is huge and moving very quickly.

That I agree with.

As I said earlier - its very difficult for a sailboat to assess close 1/4's and CPA. If CPS is large - bearing change is evident and even with a sailboat bouncing around and a magnetic compass - its observable. But once CPA starts to get to small figures - to a sailboat - its in effect zero.
Action needed. Bold and obvious course alteration is the best ... something that cannot easily be misunderstood.

 

[PilotWolf]

We were pretty manoeuvrable and not that big It rarely happened that was the SO to call me

Only twice I think I had an Incident. One was just under way he wasn’t giving way until i pit all the deck lights and search light on him did he alter.

The other was a deliberate act by to fishing boats to’drive’ the company away. They gave up when I called the CG offering a copy of the ECDIS playback.

W

 

[RichardS]

"When we rounded up and stopped in front of them, I guess they were surprised by that"

I agree.

Richard

 

[capnsensible]

I wonder how the bloke would get on in a busy shipping area with multiple contacts to assess and avoid?

 

[john_morris_uk]

So you contradict your self!

Greek ferries simply won't obey the rules, you insist at your peril.

Anybody renting a boat in Greek waters will be told this.

No contradiction. The rules say stand on until you realise you must take action. The fact that Greek ferries have a filthy reputation doesn’t alter that. The rules don’t say stand on and play chicken.

Something that I feel many Yotties forget ....... this comes from reading so many who say .. STAND ON !! Power gives way to Sail !! ... IRPCS are absolute .. you MUST obey !!

Check out ANY collision findings of two vessels who are free to manoeuvre and you will NEVER see 100% blame to one vessel.
Why ?

Because IRPCS state clearly - the action of give way vessel alone insufficient to avoid risk of collision, the stand on vessel shall take such action as necessary to reduce the risk.

There’s no contradiction in what you are saying. If there’s a collision both vessels are invariably at fault because the rules clearly say that if the other vessel isn’t taking appropriate action in accordance with IRPCS then you must avoid collision. Nowhere do they say you can guess what the big tanker on your port bow is doing so I’ll believe I’m being kind to him by pratting about and leave him wondering what I’m going to do next.

 

[Zagato]

Hard to belief anyone can make an incident out of that, either pass in front safely if you don,t think you will make it steer away, what is the problem, he obviously has not got the basic skills to judge, he had loads of time, but then to fart about with sails and round up in front of the ferry shook him up enough to get it off his chest by bothering to make a song and dance about it on You Tube. Somebody else trying to run to teacher instead of sorting out in their heads themselves and learning from it. He has realised he cannot sue the ferry so is having a whine! Man up old son...

 

[PilotWolf]

Hard to belief anyone can make an incident out of that, either pass in front safely if you don,t think you will make it steer away, what is the problem, he obviously has not got the basic skills to judge, he had loads of time, but then to fart about with sails and round up in front of the ferry shook him up enough to get it off his chest by bothering to make a song and dance about it on You Tube. Somebody else trying to run to teacher instead of sorting out in their heads themselves and learning from it.

The fact he was desperate in get his crews deacon on what to do was rather worrying too.

Ask for opinions but don’t ask them
what to do when that is your role. I’m

W.

 

[LadyInBed]

Did this guy have an AIS receiver?
I don't think he could have, assuming of course that the ferry had a transceiver!

 

[GHA]

So what would the majority do in this situation?

Guessing prob about a couple miles away if the ship was obviously holding course & speed I'd be looking at either heaving too to stop for a few minutes and stick the kettle on or tack well clear of his stern . But certainly a big and obvious change to show 'I'm not going near you!!'
Rule 2 -
"and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger." -
in this case the well known limitations of greek ferries to do much in the way of collision avoidance....

Other options?

 

[38mess]

It's bigger than you and it's Greek, it's a no brainer

 

[PilotWolf]

Did this guy have an AIS receiver?
I don't think he could have, assuming of course that the ferry had a transceiver!

I don’t think he was in the frame of mind to process anything like that!

IRC IMO require all passenger vessels
to have AIS no matter the size. And other vessels over 300 GRT

W.

 

[PilotWolf]

So what would the majority do in this situation?

Guessing prob about a couple miles away if the ship was obviously holding course & speed I'd be looking at either heaving too to stop for a few minutes and stick the kettle on or tack well clear of his stern . But certainly a big and obvious change to show 'I'm not going near you!!'
Rule 2 -
"and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger." -
in this case the well known limitations of greek ferries to do much in the way of collision avoidance....

Other options?

I think those of us who might have been on the bridge of the ferry have answered that... maybe with slight variations.

PW.

 

[Catalina36]

That's not rule one. This is: Rule 1

A basic understanding of the IRPCS will help you to be safer on your vessel. No need to be an expert but it will help to avoid confusion to others. ?

I'm familiar with the IRPCS thanks. There's nothing which says that you even need to place yourself in the position of being a stand-on vessel in the first place. Simply keep well out of the way of large vessels, you can usually see them coming from a long way off. Making guesses about whether they've seen you, intend to do anything about it or even have anyone on watch is just unnecessary. Get out of the way.

 

[Refueler]

I'm familiar with the IRPCS thanks. There's nothing which says that you even need to place yourself in the position of being a stand-on vessel in the first place. Simply keep well out of the way of large vessels, you can usually see them coming from a long way off. Making guesses about whether they've seen you, intend to do anything about it or even have anyone on watch is just unnecessary. Get out of the way.

Oh Dear ... I've posted similar many times and each time been 'shot down for it' .................

I grew up on yachts with the saying " Might is Right " ...... meaning don't 'play' with the big boys ........ its not worth it.

 

[PilotWolf]

I'm familiar with the IRPCS thanks. There's nothing which says that you even need to place yourself in the position of being a stand-on vessel in the first place. Simply keep well out of the way of large vessels, you can usually see them coming from a long way off. Making guesses about whether they've seen you, intend to do anything about it or even have anyone on watch is just unnecessary. Get out of the way.

I'm familiar with the IRPCS thanks. There's nothing which says that you even need to place yourself in the position of being a stand-on vessel in the first place. Simply keep well out of the way of large vessels, you can usually see them coming from a long way off. Making guesses about whether they've seen you, intend to do anything about it or even have anyone on watch is just unnecessary. Get out of the way.

But the regs are t designed if you’re 20iles away, they’re meant-if I recall what I was taught - But for ‘close’ quarters actions and I have no idea what that was or is defined as. So yes you could alter course early.

This guy didn’t so is bound by the regulation as was the ferry. From the video only the ferry complied other than at a real stretch the yacht took action as he thought the other vessel wasn't complying. For the same reason the ferry have a sound signal and altered to avoid him.

Again I’d have looked closely at the video before posting.

PW.

 

[Wansworth]

Good to see you getting out of your self?

 

[PilotWolf]

Good to see you getting out of your self?

If you’re referring to me. Ilm not but as said before this is my safe place and I like posting and reading others posts here.

Even if a lot of it is crap

W. !

 

[laika]

Did this guy have an AIS receiver?
I don't think he could have, assuming of course that the ferry had a transceiver!

See my post #37. There's text on the video which states that CPA was 100' (ie 30m in modern money). Either he's got AIS or RADAR or he's *really* confident with a hand bearing compass. I'd go for the former. Most others seem to be confidently asserting the ferry was going behind him but videos can be deceptive and with AIS showing 30m CPA at that range I would share the guy's concern (if not necessarily his response).