To stand on, or not to stand on

[john_morris_uk]

Rule 1. Get out of the way. You'll die, they won't. Stop being a stand on tw*t. Do a 360 to starboard and come in behind him about 20 minutes ago.

Wrong! Rule 1 one is obey the rules. See Pilotwolfs reply below.

Maintain your course and seed if you’re the stand on vessel. Anything else will confuse the OOW.

Until the point it is clear that a risk of collision exists.! The IRPCS are pretty clear on that point. The size issues is only relevant in a
risk if collision (some exceptions of course),

Difficult to tell from the video but I’m prettysure if the yacht had held his course and speed the ferry would have passed astern iif him

If he was really that worried a 180 turn or radio call rather than charging around like a headless chicken. swearing.

I would say the ferry knew he was going to pass clear astern originally and was making small course adjustments to being him back to his track.

W

PS. why is it always assumed deck officers drink coffee? Can’t stand the stuff myself!

Exactly! (Except I quite like decent coffee)

My only other comment is that I’ve been on a minor warship in Greek waters and even for a big grey thing of five thousand tonnes, the ferries were a law unto themselves. Almost without exception they seemed to ignore IRPCS a lot of the time. My CO was red eyed and seriously sleep deprived from the OOW continuously having to call him for yet another potentially close quarters incident developing.

 

[Wansworth]

Especially in the summer months when there are many yachts about tending all to be going the same way from the bridge of a ship it’s quite tricky at times as giving way to one puts you in line to give way to another etc,follow the col regs is best until obvious avoidance is required

 

[pteron]

Wrong! Rule 1 one is obey the rules.

... the ferries were a law unto themselves. Almost without exception they seemed to ignore IRPCS a lot of the time.

So you contradict your self!

Greek ferries simply won't obey the rules, you insist at your peril.

Anybody renting a boat in Greek waters will be told this.

 

[Stemar]

Given that Greek ferries have a slightly special reputation, claiming stand on status seems to me to carry certain risks. My action, therefore would be to alter course maybe 60 deg to starboard, making my intention to pass behind the ferry very clear, and to do this early enough that there's no risk of confusion and one of those everybody trying to keep out of everyone else's way nasties. Once I've established to all concerned that I'm passing astern, I'll chase his stern until I'm back on course. It's the way I deal with any commercial vessel unless I'm sure they've seen me.

An alternative might be to start the engine and zip through, holding my course, but passing close ahead of any ship has interesting possibilities of its own - rope round the prop, then the wind dies, etc.

 

[ithet]

The initial situation looks like the yacht was standing on with the ferry intending to pass close behind. When the yacht started to make alterations the ferry clearly indicated it was turning to starboard (single blast). The guy on the yacht was confused by his use of AIS and lack of knowledge of sound signals. At no time did he take a bearings on the ferry (I keep hand bearing compass in cockpit when crossing shipping lanes).

If he was in any doubt of his ability to pass in front of the ferry he should have tacked to go clearly behind much sooner.

However, I can also say that dealing with these situations grows with experience.

 

[awol]

At least he had his fenders ready to deploy! Ferry gave one blast, turned to starboard, did what he was supposed to do.

 

[Sharky34]

I can well remember seeing a ferry approaching when off Spain & decided to take no risks, turned to stbd, so the ferry could see the course change. The italian owner reversed the move, happy to ignore common sense & play chicken. When its steel v plastic, there is only one winner.

 

[capnsensible]

Rule 1. Get out of the way. You'll die, they won't. Stop being a stand on tw*t. Do a 360 to starboard and come in behind him about 20 minutes ago.

That's not rule one. This is: Rule 1

A basic understanding of the IRPCS will help you to be safer on your vessel. No need to be an expert but it will help to avoid confusion to others. ?

 

[PilotWolf]

Deleted

 

[lw395]

Given that Greek ferries have a slightly special reputation, claiming stand on status seems to me to carry certain risks. My action, therefore would be to alter course maybe 60 deg to starboard, making my intention to pass behind the ferry very clear, and to do this early enough that there's no risk of confusion and one of those everybody trying to keep out of everyone else's way nasties. Once I've established to all concerned that I'm passing astern, I'll chase his stern until I'm back on course. It's the way I deal with any commercial vessel unless I'm sure they've seen me.

An alternative might be to start the engine and zip through, holding my course, but passing close ahead of any ship has interesting possibilities of its own - rope round the prop, then the wind dies, etc.

If you go around making early 60 degree turns every time you see another vessel, do you actually get anywhere? What do the third and fourth vessels make of it?
I flicked through the video, it looks like an idiot trying to make youtube 'views' from a non-event to me.

 

[PilotWolf]

Technically if under sail (only) and
no outside factors llkke narrow. channel/ NUC/RAM/etc the yacht was stand on and it does look like the ferry alters albeit a small amount.

As the yachtsman I would have never posted the video far less the comments.

He has done yachtsmen and far less his reputation any god.

W.

 

[mjcoon]

The yacht on the video had a mindset which was “ I am the stand on vessel and I am dammed if I will give that up” which is not a good game to play with a Greek ferry..

I don't actually remember whether it was a Greek or Turkish ferry, but I remember we had one coming up behind us (overtaking vessel keeps clear?) and blasted us with a horn to request (?) us to get clear! Plenty of depth, of course...

 

[Refueler]

I am an ex Merchant Navy Officer and am well familiar with the challenges of avoiding small vessels in busy coastal waters. It is impossible to alter course early for every possible danger. You would end up going around in circles. Small boats, especially sailing boats, alter course frequently and erratically ( tacking?).

Standard approach on a big ship would be to mark the sailing boat as a target and monitor it closely but push on until it became clear that it was totally necessary to alter course. 99% of small boats will realise that it makes more sense for them to make a minor change and they will keep out of the way. In the circumstances on the video if I was the sailing boat I would have turned to starboard early and removed the risk of collision and then slipped in behind the ferry. This needs to be a decisive change and performed early to make intention completely clear to the ferry.

The yacht on the video had a mindset which was “ I am the stand on vessel and I am dammed if I will give that up” which is not a good game to play with a Greek ferry..

As an Ex myself ... I agree with most of your post ......... but will also add :

My experience with the Container boat in Baltic ... guy said he plotted me to pass 1 cable from me ... as I said to him ... on a sailboat - I cannot plot a 1 cable CPA and going by Compass bearings - we were going to 'hit'. Plus the wash at 1 cable is serious for a boat ... and as I was told many years ago - why pass so close when you have miles of open ocean to play with ??

 

[Refueler]

If you go around making early 60 degree turns every time you see another vessel, do you actually get anywhere? What do the third and fourth vessels make of it?
I flicked through the video, it looks like an idiot trying to make youtube 'views' from a non-event to me.

Often we do not agree - that's life and no-one dies from it. Makes life more interesting anyway. But here I tend to agree

- BUT ..... as both a yottie and an Ex OOW .... I do advocate the round turn or substantial alteration that the OOW can then see you are avoiding getting into close 1/4's situation. But only when doubt exists or expedient.

The 'comfort factor' in mind is different for a yottie to that of an OOW standing on 1000's of tons of steel.

 

[PilotWolf]

As an Ex myself ... I agree with most of your post ......... but will also add :

My experience with the Container boat in Baltic ... guy said he plotted me to pass 1 cable from me ... as I said to him ... on a sailboat - I cannot plot a 1 cable CPA and going by Compass bearings - we were going to 'hit'. Plus the wash at 1 cable is serious for a boat ... and as I was told many years ago - why pass so close when you have miles of open ocean to play with ??

When were were surveying in TSS we’d often have CPA of under 0.25 nm. Crew knew exactly what to do if it looked like to was going tuts ip but usually a VHF was suffice to open things up. We would have never got any work done otherwise.

A do recall being on watch one Night going the right way when the helm asked what the line on the radar was. It wa a fat calm night. The passing container ship was doing I think around 20 it’s - his wake was a wall of water about 6 feet high, beam on.

That was ‘exciting’!

W

 

[Refueler]

Something that I feel many Yotties forget ....... this comes from reading so many who say .. STAND ON !! Power gives way to Sail !! ... IRPCS are absolute .. you MUST obey !!

Check out ANY collision findings of two vessels who are free to manoeuvre and you will NEVER see 100% blame to one vessel.
Why ?

Because IRPCS state clearly - the action of give way vessel alone insufficient to avoid risk of collision, the stand on vessel shall take such action as necessary to reduce the risk.

 

[laika]

Virtually impossible to tell from that vid.

My instinctive thought is they bottled it and slowed down in front of the give way vessel but I could be well wrong.

It's what I'd think if they didn't say CPA was 100' (ie 30m) which frankly would give me concern too, but then I don't have a shed load of experience of playing with Greek ferries, how close they get before altering course and what they consider an acceptable CPA. On deliveries in Greece I've been lucky and on charters I've wasted time ensuring I don't get into a "situation" with the ferries but what's the score? Do they actively ignore the colregs or are they like solent racers, have their own rules and only change course at the last minute to pass you by a whisker (if so, how far away and by how much)?

Our presenter does seem to be showing a little dunning-kruger. Before ranting he might have acknowledged that the "RYA teachings" are in this case the colregs which do include rule 17. I'm guessing "they didn't answer on 16" means he didn't try 13.

 

[Deleted member 478]

While I was in the Crabby-Ian, most septics "sailed" with the engine running. I've flicked through this video to try work out if he had his engine running or not, but cannot see any evidence either way. The point being that if his engine was running, then he is definitely not the stand on vessel and is pulling the piss.

 

[Refueler]

When were were surveying in TSS we’d often have CPA of under 0.25 mm. Crew knew exactly what to do if it looked like to was going tuts ip but usually a VHF was suffice to open things up. We would have never got any work done otherwise.

A do recall being on watch on
ight going the right way when the helm asked what the line in the radar was. It wa a fat calm night. The passing container ship was doing I think around 20 it’s - his wake was a wall of water about 6 feet high, beam on.

That was ‘exciting’!

W.

I also did survey work ... Compagnie Generale de Geophysique (Massy France) .......... and Western Geophysical .... as well as 'private scientific' .............

Any vessel approaching to 0.25nm ..... not mm !! - would incur use of White Flare gun !!

 

[laika]

I've flicked through this video to try work out if he had his engine running or not, but cannot see any evidence either way.

It would be weird to go to the trouble of goosewinging if your motor was running