To stand on, or not to stand on

[GHA]

And a bit of practice? In any sort of reasonable seaway i reckon I get within one or two degrees. Sometimes it takes a minute or two to settle.
The compass and eyeball confirm what the AIS is saying.

Our AIS is quite clever and tells us time to cpa as well a whole load of data I don’t normally bother about.

Opencpn will display all that useful data for you, including rate of turn which can be handy if the ship is in the middle of a maneuver you could be interested in >>

AIS [OpenCPN Manuals]

Latest version also shows last position received plus an estimate of real position based on last data received, handy with class b where it can be a while between messages received though obviously not to be completely relied on as it's a guess from previous data.

 

[johnalison]

A minute or two ...... you need to take a series of HB to ascertain situation .... mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Think I'll pass on that.

It has been suggested that a yacht would be found to be at fault in a collision or near-collision event if it had not used all the means available to avoid another vessel, and this would include taking bearings and recording them. I don't know if this is still true in the days of AIS, but I do carry, and use, a mini-compass. It is good quality, if now a bit old, but I never seem to get a change of bearing until my eye has already noticed a change in the ship's aspect. For me, it is useful to show that a target is a potential cause of concern but of little assistance in resolving the situation.

 

[capnsensible]

Also for me, but what I cannot see with all this faff about " I'm important and in the right and he is wrong" ; we often forget that they have job to do and we are out for pleasure. It is nearly always easy to slow down, turn to pass astern boldly and we have another few minutes to enjoy being at sea. I cross the channel often and always aim to pass astern in any "Iffy " situations and 20+ degrees alteration is needed to help the commercial ship. Fishing vessels though ......... adrenaline is good for the heart.

Over the last twenty or so years, I've sometimes been sailing for pleasure......but mostly out doing my job. ??

 

[Refueler]

It has been suggested that a yacht would be found to be at fault in a collision or near-collision event if it had not used all the means available to avoid another vessel, and this would include taking bearings and recording them. I don't know if this is still true in the days of AIS, but I do carry, and use, a mini-compass. It is good quality, if now a bit old, but I never seem to get a change of bearing until my eye has already noticed a change in the ship's aspect. For me, it is useful to show that a target is a potential cause of concern but of little assistance in resolving the situation.

In any Maritime incident all means are looked at and if not used will weigh against you ... but I would suggest that the harshness of the compass bearing 'reqt' for a yacht would be far less than that of a ship.
Not only that but there are no cases of collision that are declared 100% one sides fault except in exceptional circumstances.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A minute or two ...... you need to take a series of HB to ascertain situation .... mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Think I'll pass on that.

Not sure what point you are making. Perhaps I'm overegging the time it takes the compass to settle and for me to decide what the bearing really is.

On a ship with a pelorus on a compass repeater in the bridge wing or side of the bridge, you can take a bearing in a few seconds. The only point I am making is that in a small boat in a seaway it sometimes takes a while to get settled and hold the compass steady and allow it to settle down when you are using a hand bearing compass. You then wait a few minutes and then wait a few minutes longer and watch to see if the bearing is changing. As you agreed earlier, it often doesn't seem to be changing at all at first.

edited the spelling of pelorus!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Also for me, but what I cannot see with all this faff about " I'm important and in the right and he is wrong" ; we often forget that they have job to do and we are out for pleasure. It is nearly always easy to slow down, turn to pass astern boldly and we have another few minutes to enjoy being at sea. I cross the channel often and always aim to pass astern in any "Iffy " situations and 20+ degrees alteration is needed to help the commercial ship. Fishing vessels though ......... adrenaline is good for the heart.

I've never ever claimed to be important, but the fact that the other vessel is working and I am not is all the more reason for me to try to be predictable and obey the rules. Why piss off a professional mariner by suddenly altering course when you are the stand on vessel and he's already monitored you, assessed the danger of collision, and tweaked his course to open up the CPA to a safe distance?

Besides which, despite being on a yacht, I've often been making my living sailing by on the high seas.

 

[capnsensible]

IT goes back to that practice thing again, doesn't it. The first one thousand bearings you take won't be as good as the second thousand. ?

 

[awol]

I still have my Autohelm electronic compass - 2 or 3 button presses then do it again a few minutes later, decide whether bearing is opening, closing or steady - and it works in any state of sea as long as you can see your target.

 

[Refueler]

Not sure what point you are making. Perhaps I'm overegging the time it takes the compass to settle and for me to decide what the bearing really is.

On a ship with a pelorus on a compass repeater in the bridge wing or side of the bridge, you can take a bearing in a few seconds. The only point I am making is that in a small boat in a seaway it sometimes takes a while to get settled and hold the compass steady and allow it to settle down when you are using a hand bearing compass. You then wait a few minutes and then wait a few minutes longer and watch to see if the bearing is changing. As you agreed earlier, it often doesn't seem to be changing at all at first.

edited the spelling of pelorus!

Pelorus as in not sitting on top of a compass repeater .... as with many older sailing vessels .... needs co-ordination of helmsman and Pelorus operator .... having crewed on such as Tectona and others so fitted.
You need helmsman to call out heading while you take bearings and then apply to arrive at net result. Pelorus has no directional indication - it is purely a 360 degree instrument with a sighting part on top ...

Here's the description of a Pelorus ..... ( the name has been adopted for that of the azimuth ring on a compass repeater ..... ).

Pelorus (instrument) - Wikipedia

As to settling time on a Hand Bearing Compass ...... its not settling time ... its the unsettling due to boat motion that makes the card unstable and you cannot have an accurate bearing ... it will always be in a range of x degs ....

Therefore its use in collision avoidance is at best approximate ... at distances that you want to be and feel safe - the angular swing of the card can easily mask a change or non change of bearing.

 

[Mudisox]

I've never ever claimed to be important, but the fact that the other vessel is working and I am not is all the more reason for me to try to be predictable and obey the rules. Why piss off a professional mariner by suddenly altering course when you are the stand on vessel and he's already monitored you, assessed the danger of collision, and tweaked his course to open up the CPA to a safe distance?

Besides which, despite being on a yacht, I've often been making my living sailing by on the high seas.

I quite like listening to "sailing by", especially as I've been mostly on the sea for 50+ years, sometimes often trying to earn a respectable living.

 

[DAKA]

quite possibly with the many reincarnations

These stand-on vs headless chicken threads were so much more fun when Daka added his own peculiar take on IRPCS. Is he still with us?

quite possibly with the many reincarnations

Still around (the Solent /Poole / Guernsey and here) , to date still not had an at fault collision .
I stopped posting when some posters didn’t seem to have a sense of humour .

I’ve only ever once reincarnated as Miss_DANKA a very obvious protest at reincarnations and in good humour.


My only comment regarding standing on is aimed at offshore not narrow channels and by the time most of us see a ship , the ship will have already adjusted course if they are going to and if you perceive a collision there is a duty to take action.

 

[Robin]

welcome back !

 

[DAKA]

Thanks Robin, although I never really went away , I decided to lurk . 6 years since I posted daily and I cant believe the colregs still cause confusion
Perhaps I should explain exactly how they ........................

 

[Robin]

new kids on the block re-inventing the wheel.....

 

[laika]

6 years since I posted daily and I cant believe the colregs still cause confusion

Any chance you could restore the video on what I consider the best colregs thread I've seen on this forum? It still gets referenced:

Chichester Marina hazard to navigation warning

 

[DAKA]

When I realised it was down last night after reading this thread I tried to restore it but it’s an old YouTube account and an old email so I couldn’t gain access.

Strangely this one is still there ( 1st April one , only for those with a sense of humour)

 

[RichardS]

Barely half a mile across. Now that's what I call a tight squeeze.

Richard

 

[differentroads]

Maintain your course and speed if you’re the stand on vessel. Anything else will confuse the OOW.

Until the point it is clear that a risk of collision exists.! The IRPCS are pretty clear on that point.
.....

All right and proper, though I'm a 'get out of their way' kind of sailor, but only when its well before a collision has to be considered as imminent. For me thats within 5 minutes or longer if I can manage it, depending on relative courses and speed. That way the other vessel has time to adjust to me no longer being stand on vessel as I run parallel a mile or two off him him and slip under his stern. Frequently backed up by a call on VHF to make it clear what I'm doing. But the key thing, as you say, is to make a decision in line with the IRPCS and stick with it to avoid confusing the OOW.

Putting your vessel and crew in harms way like the fellow in the video is poor seamanship. Blaming the other vessel when, as the IRPCS and MAIB reports make clear, it frequently takes two to make a collision, is poor leadership. To have not learned from previous near misses is that horrible mix of arrogance and stupidity that seems so prevalent.

 

[dulls]

Here lies the body of Daniel O Day,
who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
but he is just as dead as if he had been wrong.

I once sailed with a skipper who always maintained his right of way. It made for very stressful sailing. The trick is to alter course long before right of way is even an issue. "Might is right".

 

[john_morris_uk]

Here lies the body of Daniel O Day,
who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
but he is just as dead as if he had been wrong.

I once sailed with a skipper who always maintained his right of way. It made for very stressful sailing. The trick is to alter course long before right of way is even an issue. "Might is right".

That ditty is one of the silliest and inappropriately quoted bits of nonsense that is trotted out.

Firstly, there's no such thing as 'right of way' but assuming that it's an inaccurate colloquialism for 'stand on vessel' then this fictional Daniel was a fool. IRPCS require you to stand on (if you are the stand on vessel) until it is clear that the other vessel isn't taking avoiding action (or you're not confident that the other vessel is taking sufficient and appropriate action to avoid a close quarters situation) and then the IRPCS demands that you take avoiding action.. IRPCS does NOT say stand on until you are run down by sa ship that's bigger than you. Taking very early avoiding action in some misguided belief that you are avoiding any possibility of a situation where stand on vs give way is an issue is confusing and irritating to the OOW of ships. (I know because I've been there.). They almost certainly clocked you a long time before you clocked them and 99.9 times out of a 100 will have already assessed the situation and taken appropriate action. Just don't expect big course changes from them. They're expensive on fuel and wake the Captain up.

There's no such thing as might is right.

As soon as you are in sight of each other and appear to be (or might possibly be) in a closing situation in open waters then IRPCS apply regardless of the size of the respective vessels.

Please go and learn the rules and apply them. You will discover that ships great and small almost always comply and if they aren't complying then make appropriate avoiding action (which usually means NOT turning to Port) as a close quarters situation looks as though it might develop. Please don't pretend you're avoiding them early. Such unpredictable actions just confuse and irritate ships (although many of them have come to expect Yotties to behave like prats).

Read back through this or other threads on this subject. In fifty years of sailing I can only remember a very small slack handful of occasions when ship's great and small have not complied with the rules when I am sailing (or motoring and am stand on vessel).

If you don't believe me, get an AIS system and watch the CPA of ships that hove into view as you sail across the channel or other shipping lanes. Find one that looks as though it's going to be close and hold your course and watch the ship alter for you by a few degrees to open up the CPA. They're doing it all the time in the Channel for Ferries, Fishing boats and other shipping and they'll do it for you too so long as you're predictable and sail by the IRPCS.