To stand on, or not to stand on

[laika]

Whatever happened to the king of colregs threads Tim Bartlett?

IIRC he got fed up with criticism years ago and left us. Huge shame He was also an invaluable knowledge source on radio procedure.

My nomination for best ever colregs thread though is unquestionably the DAKA-instigated one which slowly develops into a dockhead vs jfm courtroom drama. Classic stuff:
Chichester Marina hazard to navigation warning

 

[Rappey]

My nomination for best ever colregs thread

Shame the video is private..

 

[john_morris_uk]

I ALWAYS turn towards the ship and run parallel as soon as there's a chance I'll get close to a ship's course. Then once the ship is passing, I'll turn towards it's stern and get back on course. In a yacht vs ship situation there's no way the yacht will come off best and you're just as dead whether you have right of way or not.

It helps that I don't have AIS. Keep out of their way is my mantra.

I have been told by a Pro Skipper that you should always turn to Starboard when turning away, but I've forgotten why.

I despair.

I humbly encourage you to get AIS and discover how ships invariably are either not going to get close to you or have altered course appropriately.

It’s not a question of coming off worse because they’re bigger (you can and should take avoiding action if the ship is getting worryingly closer and obviously not taking avoiding action) but your idea of self preservation and not appearing to know or obey IRPCS confuses others and gives sailors the name WAFI’s.
IMHO

 

[john_morris_uk]

Stand on vessel hails from the days of windjammers. Dangerously redundant but RYA courses still plod through it all.

As all matelots know it take a few years for ColRegs to resemble life as it is. This is a reg that is dangerously overdue for the bin.

In perfect conditions as in this video there is virtually no chance of a collision if the sailing vessel holds its course and shows clear intent, as many have commented.
An oncoming motor vessel will change curse, if it intends to do so, not less than a mile off and will usually pass behind the sailing vessel. If that moment passes without a good clearance move by the vessel, the yacht goes to heave to and slaps on a bit more sun protection whilst it passes. job done.

Some people should not be in charge of a small vessel, because this is all common sense.

PWG

So OOW shouldn’t learn and apply IRPCS? They’ve been revised a fair few times since the days of sail.
From many answers on here it’s not common sense at all.

Common sense (and the law) says learn and apply IRPCS. They’re not an RYA fad.

 

[Rappey]

Learn the irpcs , stay aware of your surroundings and use common sense overall. Simple ?

 

[laika]

Shame the video is private..

Darn. If I remember correctly sailing boats tacking up Itchenor reach, motor boat is about to pass them and the sailing boats tack in front of the mobo causing the latter to take evasive action. I think it's the only colregs discussion I've actually learned something from and which doesn't essentially boil down to colregs vs family friends of a late member of the o'day clan.

 

[Refueler]

That, and - 'After being alerted to the presence of the yacht, the second officer saw a cluster of bright white lights when he came out of the chartroom. He was then busy trying to swing the bow and then the stern away from the yacht. He did not actually see the yacht or positively confirm how close it had passed by. '

I have the full report somewhere in my archives ... but if memory serves me - the AB on watch alerted the 2/Off .... who took action ... but testimony was extremely vague as to what was seen and as to whether it was a YACHT was assumed circumstancially.

 

[awol]

And if you are really bored here is another thread featuring Daka (he claims the Rev John was the instigator) IRPCS and why you have to get out the way

 

[Refueler]

I came late to this thread, but my observation is that this was almost certainly an unnecessary AIS-assisted panic.

- W

In early days of Radar put on MN ships - there was a spate of what came to be called : Radar Assisted Collisions. It's part of the reason extreme emphasis was put on Cadets and junior officers when studying tickets ... Mk 1 eyeball and traditional methods taught.

 

[ProMariner]

Beware of Greeks bearing constant.

Greek ship drivers can even hit islands, then claim the island was at fault.

Nothing, ever, is the fault of Greek captains.

 

[Robin]

Reading this thread makes me very nervous, not of big ships per se but of headless chickens either directly or most likely causing a ship to change towards me.

 

[PilotWolf]

I didn't mention the PoB, I said "the ship". What's not in dispute is that something hit the Ouzo and on the assumption that it didn't do so deliberately it's a reasonable assumption that it didn't see it. Perhaps we're not always as visible as some would like to believe.

im
not sue

In early days of Radar put on MN ships - there was a spate of what came to be called : Radar Assisted Collisions. It's part of the reason extreme emphasis was put on Cadets and junior officers when studying tickets ... Mk 1 eyeball and traditional methods taught.

I believe that has progressed to VHF assisted collisions.

W.

 

[Refueler]

I despair.

I humbly encourage you to get AIS and discover how ships invariably are either not going to get close to you or have altered course appropriately.

It’s not a question of coming off worse because they’re bigger (you can and should take avoiding action if the ship is getting worryingly closer and obviously not taking avoiding action) but your idea of self preservation and not appearing to know or obey IRPCS confuses others and gives sailors the name WAFI’s.
IMHO

Sorry but choosing you or Topcat47 ... I'll go with Topcat47 .....

Self Preservation scores highly with me.

AIS may be a good AID ... but I would never rely on it over my eyeball and steady or near steady bearing ....

I do not carry transmitting AIS - I have passive Rx only. Only time I purposely look for info from it is when I wish confirmation of what my trad methods indicate.

 

[Refueler]

Stand on vessel hails from the days of windjammers. Dangerously redundant but RYA courses still plod through it all.

As all matelots know it take a few years for ColRegs to resemble life as it is. This is a reg that is dangerously overdue for the bin.

In perfect conditions as in this video there is virtually no chance of a collision if the sailing vessel holds its course and shows clear intent, as many have commented.
An oncoming motor vessel will change curse, if it intends to do so, not less than a mile off and will usually pass behind the sailing vessel. If that moment passes without a good clearance move by the vessel, the yacht goes to heave to and slaps on a bit more sun protection whilst it passes. job done.

Some people should not be in charge of a small vessel, because this is all common sense.

PWG

I must seriously disagree with you on Stand On ....... there has to be a give way and a stand on division otherwise it would be chaos out there ........ blimey it can be bad enough with rule ... without doesn't bear thinking about.

What needs to be understood by some - is that stand-on is not absolute ... there are times when a bold turn to stbd to keep clear or a 360 is prudent.

Its termed Good Seamanship.

 

[Refueler]

im
not sue


I believe that has progressed to VHF assisted collisions.

W.

Two vessels ... actually Sister Ships of the same company ... one loaded - other in ballast. SE corner of South Africa ... the 3/Off on one calls the other as they approach each other ... they get chatting ... one ended up embedding its bow into the hull of the other just ahead of the accommodation.
Somewhere I have a photo set as the shipping Company I was officer with was given the job of getting the cargo of the loaded vessel.
One photo has the anchor still embedded into the hull of the other.

VHF ..... I come from old school days .. and we were strongly advised to NOT fall into the VHF trap .... The words were sort of :

Learn to do your job properly and avoid incidents - don't waste time with VHF .. it can lead to confusion.

Remember those were the days before AIS ... so we had no way to identify our 'VHF target' ... other than ship on my xxxx bow approx xx miles bearing xxx .....
Imagine in a busy area ....

If you are out in the ocean .. they WHY are you passing close anyway ???

 

[laika]

AIS may be a good AID ... but I would never rely on it over my eyeball and steady or near steady bearing ....

I don't believe john_morris_uk was advising to rely on AIS over eyeball, rather it was advice that monitoring AIS could tell you stuff about how ships behave that you could never determine from a hand bearing compass (ie those little course tweaks several miles away that you wouldn't pick up by eye). I thoroughly agree: AIS has been enormously educational for me: I no longer have to rely on second hand reports of what ships do when: I can see for myself when I cross traffic.

...And talking of AIS...it's impossible to tell ranges etc. from a fish-eye GoPro but earlier in the thread I was questioning those saying the youtuber should have held course and speed: the claimed 30m CPA would have been worrying but looking at the footage again it does kinda look like the ferry is going to pass considerably more than 30m behind him so perhaps I'm a little suspicious of the 30m claim. I'll go with a fence sitting "impossible to tell from a video" but yes I would prioritise eyes over electronics (as I suspect would john_morris_uk) but being well aware that human perception is fallible I will also recheck everything if eyes and electronics don't match up (sadly I'm not sure the Tees is navigable to yachts far enough up for a full eye test)

 

[Rappey]

since few are debating what happened with ouzo/ferry here is the report and the report about radar reflectors
Sinking of sailing yacht Ouzo after encounter with ro-ro passenger ferry Pride of Bilbao with loss of 3 lives

 

[rotrax]

I'm not very experienced but last year skippered a boat from Corinth to Athens. I was anxious - of course - but in the event it was straightforward. It seemed to be fairly obvious where the ferries were going from and to, and you stayed out of their way. Simples.

According to First Mate, who has direct experience, just like driving in India.

The bigger you are, the more 'right of way' you have.............................................

 

[[163233]]

Beware of Greeks bearing consistent.

Greek ship drivers can even hit islands, then claim the island was at fault.

Nothing, ever, is the fault of Greek captains.

I think this is a touch unfair, there are a lot of Greek ferries who constantly dodge a huge number of small boats who often have a poor grasp of the colregs (as in this example). These guys are very experienced professionals, and while mistakes happen it really is unlikely to be them.

As for the OP you can see when the camera comes up from the deck that he's passed the bows despite stopping his boat in front of them. That they didn't kill the prat is testament to their professionalism.

 

[lw395]

The acid test of 'Greek Ferry Rules' might be how often one ferry hits another ferry?