Time to change boat?

[Gerry]

Put this up on the Liveaboard Forum but to no response, thought I'd try here to see if anyone had any good thoughts or ideas that we should take on board?

After 13 years sailing our Bowman 40 we are thinking of changing boat. We have been very happy with the one we have, she has looked after us extremely well but as our experience has grown and our desires have changed we think this may be time for a change.

We are driven by our desire to attempt more high latitude sailing and our desire for complete self-sufficiency. Whilst we have achieved a lot on the Bowman we recognise that the changes we would need to make for the future will be expensive, invasive and probably compromise any resale value. They would also, inevitably, involve a number of substantial compromises.

We are also aging and facing the fact that our physical abilities will be eroded over the coming decades. Ideally we are looking for a boat that will take us to high latitudes for the next ten years or so and then enable us to continue living aboard well into our dotage and cruise inland waterways as well as coasts.....

We are right at the beginning of this thought process, and there certainly is no guarantee that we will indeed change at the end of the process-better the boat you know and all that!

I am quite taken by the Wylo 35.5, particularly the new build offered by voyage on the IOW, don't want to build our own though. Like the fact that we could specify the interior. What I am questioning is the gaff rig, no experience but a belief that a fair set of muscles are required for this. Considering a junk rig too.

So any thoughts? Ideas?

We are looking for simplicity without compromising comfort. Minimum electronics, around 35-40feet and probably steel construction.

 

[LadyInBed]

Have a look at boats that are for sale in Scandinavia.

 

[jonic]

I really like the Wylo too.

Here's something else for the mix http://www.jryachts.com/boat-details?boatid=832256

Unusually she was professionally built in and out.

 

[Gerry]

The Spray looks interesting but I had heard that they are a pretty lumbering sail, anyone experience of them?

 

[NOHOH]

Paul j of this parish has completed a circumnavigation in something that sounds similar to what you are looking for......just a thought ...http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?60359-Meet-Damarri-!

 

[Gerry]

That's a super looking boat! Does he have a website do you know?

 

[Tranona]

You really need to say what your budget is. There are all sorts of steel boats built in the past that would meet your basic criteria - the Alan Pape one above is a good example, but his Ebbtide designs - 33, 36 and 39 are more common. However, many are either home built or custom built so are very individual and or badly built. Do a search on Yachtworld.com by size and material to see the wide range for sale - you will find more outside the UK, and particularly Holland or dotted around the world on their voyages. Be aware that steel boats need a lot of upkeep and a well used and not well maintained old boat can be a nightmare, particularly if it has had lots of teak put on the deck to disguise it and filled with heavy wood furniture so you can't get at the plating from inside.

If you have the budget to buy new there are lots of possibilities, and builders to do the job. Common to have the plates cut and shaped in Holland from digitised plans and welded together and fitted out elsewhere. Have a look at the thread Fifty foot of... on the MOBO forum to see one way of getting a custom steel boat built to your spec. Of course such things are not cheap as the price of the Wylo indicates. Although hull materials are relatively cheap, building is labour and space intensive. So what seems a simple basic home build boat ends up 50% or so more than a production GRP boat of similar size. Second hand values can be low because they are often idiosyncratic and as suggested earlier do not age well. Even if built by good builders they can go downhill very quickly if neglected and can also be hideously expensive to put right.

On the other hand, of course it is a good material for the hull if you are going to sail in places where there is a high chance of hitting solid objects. It also allows you to build in features appropriate for your style of sailing that would not be possible on a production GRP boat. Have a look at Skip Novak's boat for some ideas of what a dedicated high latitude boat might look like.

Good luck with your search.

 

[William_H]

I think in this day and age of aluminium masts that a gaff rig has no benefits at all. Indeed a lot of extra weight to haul up when hoisting main sail. Certainly not what you want.
I can't imagine why you would want to change from what you have. good luck olewill

 

[Bajansailor]

+1 with Olewill re the merits (?) of a gaff rig today.

Re your replacement, how about a Sirius 42 built in steel? The cost of a new one 20 years ago was in the region of GBP 275,000.
Here is one for sale for around 100k.

http://www.yachtsalesgreece.com/boat-news-events/newsandevents/sirius-42-custom-steel-yacht-greece

Have you also considered the advantages of aluminium for high latitude sailing?

This vessel might be a bit too big for what you want, but she seems to fit the brief nicely for high latitudes :

http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm

 

[jwilson]

I fully understand the attraction of steel for high latitudes, but the maintenance is a very significant factor, getting progressively more onerous as the boat gets older. After sailing a Bowman 40, I don't think you would be happy with a Spray design. My own brokerage suggestion would be this - http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/b641011/b641011.htm - she is not a 30 year old boat that has had a big internal refit, but one that has simply been very well looked after by her original owner all her life, with a change of rig and engine to make her easier to handle as the owner's age and fitness altered. She'd be at least as fast, probably substantially faster at times, than the Bowman. She is however GRP, and might be just a bit "racy" on deck for your tastes.

Alloy is probably the ideal for your needs, but apart from the Ovnis (with slightly worrying ultimate stability figures) there are so few smaller yachts in alloy around that finding one may be difficult.

 

[Gerry]

You really need to say what your budget is. There are all sorts of steel boats built in the past that would meet your basic criteria - the Alan Pape one above is a good example, but his Ebbtide designs - 33, 36 and 39 are more common. However, many are either home built or custom built so are very individual and or badly built. Do a search on Yachtworld.com by size and material to see the wide range for sale - you will find more outside the UK, and particularly Holland or dotted around the world on their voyages. Be aware that steel boats need a lot of upkeep and a well used and not well maintained old boat can be a nightmare, particularly if it has had lots of teak put on the deck to disguise it and filled with heavy wood furniture so you can't get at the plating from inside.

If you have the budget to buy new there are lots of possibilities, and builders to do the job. Common to have the plates cut and shaped in Holland from digitised plans and welded together and fitted out elsewhere. Have a look at the thread Fifty foot of... on the MOBO forum to see one way of getting a custom steel boat built to your spec. Of course such things are not cheap as the price of the Wylo indicates. Although hull materials are relatively cheap, building is labour and space intensive. So what seems a simple basic home build boat ends up 50% or so more than a production GRP boat of similar size. Second hand values can be low because they are often idiosyncratic and as suggested earlier do not age well. Even if built by good builders they can go downhill very quickly if neglected and can also be hideously expensive to put right.

On the other hand, of course it is a good material for the hull if you are going to sail in places where there is a high chance of hitting solid objects. It also allows you to build in features appropriate for your style of sailing that would not be possible on a production GRP boat. Have a look at Skip Novak's boat for some ideas of what a dedicated high latitude boat might look like.

Good luck with your search.

Feeling very open minded right now. If we did go with steel we would probably consider a new build just so we can ensure that it's done to our rigorous standards.We have seen too many steel boats with insurmountable 'issues' a few years down the line.

Budget wise again we are pretty fluid. Depending what we got for the Bowman I guess is the most accurate I can get to, plus a bit. However we are just as happy with a much cheaper boat if she satisfies our wants. In fact I don't want anything that looks too flashy and expensive.

Everything is up for grabs right now!

 

[Gerry]

I fully understand the attraction of steel for high latitudes, but the maintenance is a very significant factor, getting progressively more onerous as the boat gets older. After sailing a Bowman 40, I don't think you would be happy with a Spray design. My own brokerage suggestion would be this - http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/b641011/b641011.htm - she is not a 30 year old boat that has had a big internal refit, but one that has simply been very well looked after by her original owner all her life, with a change of rig and engine to make her easier to handle as the owner's age and fitness altered. She'd be at least as fast, probably substantially faster at times, than the Bowman. She is however GRP, and might be just a bit "racy" on deck for your tastes.

Alloy is probably the ideal for your needs, but apart from the Ovnis (with slightly worrying ultimate stability figures) there are so few smaller yachts in alloy around that finding one may be difficult.

Nice boat but too racy for me.

Want something a bit different, more old-fashioned in feel but nevertheless a good sailing boat with the potential for use in varied situations. It must be solid, low tech, we do ALL our own repairs so no fancy electronic systems. Big enough to take two of us off grid for up to eight months yet easy enough to sail for two aging hedonists!

Not asking for much am I!!!

We have certainly loved the Bowman but I wouldn't want to take her anywhere near ice.

It's important that the next boat, if there is a next one, can take us into old age still capable of sailing with confidence and comfort.

Speed is not the prime need, a steady sea kindly vessel that copes with the nasty seas with ease and grace is of far more importance.

 

[Gerry]

+1 with Olewill re the merits (?) of a gaff rig today.

Re your replacement, how about a Sirius 42 built in steel? The cost of a new one 20 years ago was in the region of GBP 275,000.
Here is one for sale for around 100k.

http://www.yachtsalesgreece.com/boat-news-events/newsandevents/sirius-42-custom-steel-yacht-greece

Have you also considered the advantages of aluminium for high latitude sailing?

This vessel might be a bit too big for what you want, but she seems to fit the brief nicely for high latitudes :

http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm

Yes great boat but too much in every way for us! I already feel like 40 feet is too much and that we carry a lot of excess space around with us already!

 

[chinita]

I have looked at the new build Wylo as well. IMO, they are rather overpriced and a little too prescriptive for me.

In your position, and if you have the time to do it, I think I would get hold of the study plans from Nick Skeates and tout them around reputable steel boatbuilders in Holland. If you are going for a new build you have the once only luxury of a blank canvas. You can oversee the build and specify precisely what you want and where you want it.

Regarding the rig. I, too am impressed with junk - just the exploits of Roger Taylor and Bill King were enough to convince me that it should be a serious option.

Good luck. Let us know how it all goes.

 

[john_morris_uk]

My first and main thought after I read your requirement was "deck saloon". Steel or ali but look VERY carefully at the insulation. Condensation is even more of an issue at high latitudes...

 

[Gerry]

My first and main thought after I read your requirement was "deck saloon". Steel or ali but look VERY carefully at the insulation. Condensation is even more of an issue at high latitudes...

Yes an issue that we have to address. I am thinking of a 'Halibut' solid fuel stove that comes with an oven. A nice heat throughout the boat and the ability to cook on it. Ventilation and insulation are probably two of the highest issues on our list regarding the internal spec. Would dorades have any hidden issues in cold water do you know?

 

[[70521]]

I was very impressed with a http://www.voiliers-boreal.com/ this summer, if you are looking for a new boat and want to spec out the interior.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yes an issue that we have to address. I am thinking of a 'Halibut' solid fuel stove that comes with an oven. A nice heat throughout the boat and the ability to cook on it. Ventilation and insulation are probably two of the highest issues on our list regarding the internal spec. Would dorades have any hidden issues in cold water do you know?

I don't know of any issues with Dorades. When they are well built they usually provide reliable leak free ventilation. Not entirely leak free in storms as they can be overwhelmed by water sweeping the decks. Ask me how I know! However you normally have plates to close them off in extreme conditions.