Tiller pilot mounted near outboard motor in a cockpit well - compass issues?

[GeoffDDDD]

I want to fit an autopilot (tiller pilot) to my Baroness 22 trailer sailer, which has an outboard motor (Yamaha 8HP 4-stroke) mounted in a cockpit well. The tiller passes over the motor. And the recommeded attachment position (the pin) for the ST1000+ (Raymarine) and the TP10 (Simrad) is 18" from the rudder pivot, which is right over the motor. I have read on another forum that the boat owner could not get decent performance from his ST1000 tillerpilot when the motor was in the well, but when he switched to a TP10 it worked fine. He put this down to the location of the built-in compass in the autopilot - near the boat midline (i.e. close to the motor) for the ST1000, far from the midline (i.e. far from the motor) for the TP10.

Can anybody share relevant experience?
- Re the proximity to the motor being an issue?
- Re the location of the compass in the autopilot making a difference?
- Re whether these two autopilots do in fact have the compass located at different ends of the autopilot unit?

In my particular boat, the motor is not steerable. But I want to be able to use the autopilot when hoisting sails under motor. And to keep the motor in the well when sailing.

Any thoughts appreciated! Geoff

 

[Refueler]

You can often tell where the compass is - the underside of the case has an inverted dome for it to sit into ... try and get some photos from online to see ...

OK ... the compass can be 'stalled' if too close to an object that has strong magnetic influence .. so when boat goes off course - compass fails to swing. The pilot compass is acting based on quite weak 'earths' field.... easily overcome by 3rd item issue.

It may seem strange - but in your case - I would be thinking of one of the older systems with a remote compass controller. You can then site that away from the motor.

Of if you have capability to feed steering commands to the Tiller Pilot from Plotter - you may be able to over-ride the above .. by the plotter maintaining the course... but that means you then have to enable a course keeping plot.

Just to clear away a misconception - that I have heard some believe ...

The Tiller pilot compass is not an instrument to expect accurate readout of heading ... what that compass provides is the rate and amount of swing off course for the unit to then apply corrective rudder. Therefore you can have magnetic influence close - but only as long as it does not overpower the earths field effect.

 

[wallacebob]

I used a TP100 on my last boat; outboard in well. No issues, “compass” is at fixed end furthest away from engine. Most tiller pilots have a procedure ( back of manual) to calibrate, basically set in mode and motor in a circle a few times. Unless it’s linked to plotter, the TP just goes where it is pointing when you press auto, does not really care about where that is.

 

[garymalmgren]

Hi Geoff
RE: I have read on another forum that the boat owner could not get decent performance from his ST1000 tillerpilot when the motor was in the well, but when he switched to a TP10 it worked fine. He put this down to the location of the built-in compass in the autopilot - near the boat midline (i.e. close to the motor) for the ST1000, far from the midline (i.e. far from the motor) for the TP10.

Both the TS 10 and the ST 1000 have the compass in about the same position. That is at the outward end of the plastic casing.
The ST is below and the TS is above so only an inch or so different.

RE: - Re the proximity to the motor being an issue?

Almost all trailer sailers have the tiller pilot very close the the engine (spark plug leads and alternator) with almost no big hassles.
RE: In my particular boat, the motor is not steerable. But I want to be able to use the autopilot when hoisting sails under motor. And to keep the motor in the well when sailing.

Once you get a tillerpilot and set it up correctly (as Wallacebob has explained) you will use it a lot. To steer a long straight course when sailing or motoring. To tack when single handed. to give yourself a bit of a break on the tiller. You will wonder how you lived (or at least sailed) without one.

Go for it and make it work.

gary

PS. For efficient Tillerpilot operation the ram stroke should be VERY close to center when the tiller is centered. When I bought my boat the cockpit pin socket was fitted the only place it could be. But I was never really satisfied with the operation. I measured and found it was 40 mm off center stroke. Made up a jig the relocated the pin socket so the ram was centered and it was the world of difference. In my view 20mm off center is the max.

 

[Refueler]

I would not be without my Tiller Pilots .... as said - once used - always used !!

 

[Hermit]

If the outboard well is off centre, put the tiller pilot on the other side? I think they all allow for the side to be changed on set up.


Should have googled the boat first - centreline well!

 

[thinwater]

I used a TP100 on my last boat; outboard in well. No issues, “compass” is at fixed end furthest away from engine. Most tiller pilots have a procedure ( back of manual) to calibrate, basically set in mode and motor in a circle a few times. Unless it’s linked to plotter, the TP just goes where it is pointing when you press auto, does not really care about where that is.

Confirm. The compass is at the piston end of the tillerpilot.

Take a hand compass and check the area, power on, power off, multiple headings.

If you mount on port vs, starboard you do need to reset this in the software. Read the manual.

BTW, you cannot use the compass in your iphone for this purpose. It is stabilized by accelerometers and GPS and will not read local fields. This is true of many modern digital compasses. You are better off using a compass from a cereal box. Exaggerating, perhaps, but a hand bearing or hiking compass will work.

 

[ProDave]

If the outboard well is off centre, put the tiller pilot on the other side? I think they all allow for the side to be changed on set up.


Should have googled the boat first - centreline well!

We have that. Same Yam 8HP 4 stroke in a well on the port side, tiller pilot on the starboard side. Works without problem.

 

[thinwater]

I did have the boat start steering just crazy once. Then I realized that the tools I was using had become magnetized. Just the one tool.

It was pretty funny, once I figured it out. Every time I sat down to address the steering problem (put my tools down) it straightened out. When I went back to work it went wonky.

 

[GeoffDDDD]

You can often tell where the compass is - the underside of the case has an inverted dome for it to sit into ... try and get some photos from online to see ...

OK ... the compass can be 'stalled' if too close to an object that has strong magnetic influence .. so when boat goes off course - compass fails to swing. The pilot compass is acting based on quite weak 'earths' field.... easily overcome by 3rd item issue.

It may seem strange - but in your case - I would be thinking of one of the older systems with a remote compass controller. You can then site that away from the motor.

Of if you have capability to feed steering commands to the Tiller Pilot from Plotter - you may be able to over-ride the above .. by the plotter maintaining the course... but that means you then have to enable a course keeping plot.

Just to clear away a misconception - that I have heard some believe ...

The Tiller pilot compass is not an instrument to expect accurate readout of heading ... what that compass provides is the rate and amount of swing off course for the unit to then apply corrective rudder. Therefore you can have magnetic influence close - but only as long as it does not overpower the earths field effect.

Thank you for this! I haven't yet explored the idea of having a remote compass, connected to the tiller unit by NMEA or similar. The ST1000 may be able to operate this way, as it has a data connection. The TP10 has no data connection, though the larger TP20 & TP30 apparently have one. And I think I had an Autohelm 2000 (?) back in the 1980s, that had a control unit connected to the tiller actuator by a cable.

I imagine modern autopilots have fluxgate compasses, mounted on the internal printed circuit board.

I appreciate your thoughts about magnetic objects 'stalling' the compass.

I'm not hugely worried about the accuracy of the compass in the autopilot - I can always check it against the boat's main compass. I'd just like it to be able to maintain a heading, more-or-less.
I'm not particularly interested in waypoint turns either, I'm happy to do that stuff manually.

- Geoff

 

[GeoffDDDD]

I used a TP100 on my last boat; outboard in well. No issues, “compass” is at fixed end furthest away from engine. Most tiller pilots have a procedure ( back of manual) to calibrate, basically set in mode and motor in a circle a few times. Unless it’s linked to plotter, the TP just goes where it is pointing when you press auto, does not really care about where that is.

Hi wallacebob, Thank you for that info. Very helpful. I'm assuming TP100 was a typo for TP10 - the Simrad tiller pilot?

Yes, all I want is for the autopilot to maintain a heading that I set. Using the main compass to set the course.

- Geoff

 

[thinwater]

... I imagine modern autopilots have fluxgate compasses, mounted on the internal printed circuit board....

... I'm not particularly interested in waypoint turns either, I'm happy to do that stuff manually.

- Geoff

I think it is still separate, mounted on a gimble under the board.

I can think of at least three boat in my harbor that hit ATNs because they set the waypoints based on locations. Running lines between marks is high traffic and high risk. Better to set manually and run some distance to the side of a straight line. Much better to keep a look-out.

 

[GeoffDDDD]

Hi Geoff
RE: I have read on another forum that the boat owner could not get decent performance from his ST1000 tillerpilot when the motor was in the well, but when he switched to a TP10 it worked fine. He put this down to the location of the built-in compass in the autopilot - near the boat midline (i.e. close to the motor) for the ST1000, far from the midline (i.e. far from the motor) for the TP10.

Both the TS 10 and the ST 1000 have the compass in about the same position. That is at the outward end of the plastic casing.
The ST is below and the TS is above so only an inch or so different.

RE: - Re the proximity to the motor being an issue?

Almost all trailer sailers have the tiller pilot very close the the engine (spark plug leads and alternator) with almost no big hassles.
RE: In my particular boat, the motor is not steerable. But I want to be able to use the autopilot when hoisting sails under motor. And to keep the motor in the well when sailing.

Once you get a tillerpilot and set it up correctly (as Wallacebob has explained) you will use it a lot. To steer a long straight course when sailing or motoring. To tack when single handed. to give yourself a bit of a break on the tiller. You will wonder how you lived (or at least sailed) without one.

Go for it and make it work.

gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the info about compass locations being much the same in the two tillerpilots. It seems like the logical place for it to be, near the pivot pin (mounting end), rather than at the end where the tiller arm comes out of the housing.

And I also agree that most trailer sailers have the autopilot near the motor. But probably a bit closer when in a well, rather than over the transom.

I'm really looking forward to being able to sit back as the boat steers itself!

At this stage, I'm about to buy my autopilot, and I'm checking whether or not it's likely to actually work - in my boat.

- Geoff

 

[GeoffDDDD]

If the outboard well is off centre, put the tiller pilot on the other side? I think they all allow for the side to be changed on set up.


Should have googled the boat first - centreline well!

Hi Hermit,

Yes, my outboard is on the midline....

- Geoff

 

[ProDave]

I imagine modern autopilots have fluxgate compasses, mounted on the internal printed circuit board.

A fluxgate compass is very sensitive to any slight tilt, so is hangs on it's own gimbal in the dome shaped part of the plastic housing.

This is one of the weak points of the TP series tiller pilots. Last year mine failed and I found one of the fine copper wires fractured where it solders to the PCB connector , This year it failed again so I have stripped and re soldered all 5 of them now. There is no strain relief and the constant movement of the fluxgate in it's gimbal causes eventual failure of the fine copper wires.

 

[GeoffDDDD]

I think it is still separate, mounted on a gimble under the board.

I can think of at least three boat in my harbor that hit ATNs because they set the waypoints based on locations. Running lines between marks is high traffic and high risk. Better to set manually and run some distance to the side of a straight line. Much better to keep a look-out.

Hi thinwater,

Yes, I think you are right, I've seen mention of there being a gimbal/gimble mount for the compass.

I'm a rather nervous boat operator, and I hate high traffic areas! I don't know what an ATN is, but I suspect hitting one is bad news. Aaaah - aid to navigation?

- Geoff

 

[GeoffDDDD]

A fluxgate compass is very sensitive to any slight tilt, so is hangs on it's own gimbal in the dome shaped part of the plastic housing.

This is one of the weak points of the TP series tiller pilots. Last year mine failed and I found one of the fine copper wires fractured where it solders to the PCB connector , This year it failed again so I have stripped and re soldered all 5 of them now. There is no strain relief and the constant movement of the fluxgate in it's gimbal causes eventual failure of the fine copper wires.

Thanks ProDave.
I guess this is to keep the compass heading correct as the boat pitches and rolls.
It certainly sounds like a weak spot in the TP series.
Well done getting in there and fixing yours!
- Geoff

 

[thinwater]

I will also volunteer that the 18" pintle to pin distance is probably wrong (too far) for a 22' boat. They are marketed for boats up to about 30 feet and much heavier. Small boats require greater and quicker tiller action than larger boats, but much less force, so about 14-16 inches is better. The TP2000 is mounted at 14 inches on my 24-foot Corsair F-24. It tacks MUCH better with this setting.

I've seen them successfully mounted at 12" on smaller boats and 21" on large boats. 18" is a good general setting, but it is only logical that one size can't fit all.

I would also recommend the TP2000 for smaller boats because of its faster hard over time. It moves more like a person.

The Tricked Out Tillerpilot - Practical Sailor

 

[GeoffDDDD]

I will also volunteer that the 18" pintle to pin distance is probably wrong (too far) for a 22' boat. They are marketed for boats up to about 30 feet and much heavier. Small boats require greater and quicker tiller action than larger boats, but much less force, so about 14-16 inches is better. The TP2000 is mounted at 14 inches on my 24-foot Corsair F-24. It tacks MUCH better with this setting.

I've seen them successfully mounted at 12" on smaller boats and 21" on large boats. 18" is a good general setting, but it is only logical that one size can't fit all.

I would also recommend the TP2000 for smaller boats because of its faster hard over time. It moves more like a person.

The Tricked Out Tillerpilot - Practical Sailor

Hi again thinwater,

Thanks for this info. Yes, it makes sense to have different pin positions, depending on the size of the boat.

Thanks also for the suggestion to go for the 2000 rather than the 1000. I had been wondering about that...

- Geoff

 

[thinwater]

Hi again thinwater,

Thanks for this info. Yes, it makes sense to have different pin positions, depending on the size of the boat.

Thanks also for the suggestion to go for the 2000 rather than the 1000. I had been wondering about that...

- Geoff

The TP2000 is twice as fast, which can make all the difference when using autotack in waves ... which is when you need it most singlehanding.

The PO installed the TP at 21 inches, and it would only autotack in light wind with good luck. Now, at 14 inches, I can do a dozen in a row in waves.

I would NOT advise this in a big, heavy boat. 18 inches is right for them. This is smaller boat advice.