Searush
Well-Known Member
My boat's 40 years young. come back if yours is still afloat then.
Thinking of buying an 11 year old yacht?
- Thread starter Bav34
- Start date
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
plenty of the small boats survived the 79 fastnet. The CO32 was the only one that figured it was worth bringing her crew back too.
Conclusions about the boats should be normalized against conclusions about the crews. And before anyone suggests otherwise that's not to critique the crews but to remind everyone that boats usually handle storms better than humans do.
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
I never read the Bavaria threads on the forum as they always seem to me to be tedious and without much take-away message for other owners. I've just read this one through and jolly well wished I hadn't.
I enjoy the banter on the forum and can pick on a point as well as anybody might. But the purpose of the OP seems to have been to taunt and the rest of his posts seem to do the same. Whatever the beef this is an easy way to hand your opponent the high ground.
We must all have gone through the looking glass when we start talking about six figure yachts as cheap. And this is compounded by throwing around five figure bets. No pal of mine could actually afford to buy a cruiser worthy of the name, all yachts are bloody expensive. I'm off back to read the threads about little MAB sailing on a budget. This thread has not at all lowered my opinion of Bavarias which are boats I'd love to own. Their owners, however, are another matter entirely.
Cheers
I enjoy the banter on the forum and can pick on a point as well as anybody might. But the purpose of the OP seems to have been to taunt and the rest of his posts seem to do the same. Whatever the beef this is an easy way to hand your opponent the high ground.
We must all have gone through the looking glass when we start talking about six figure yachts as cheap. And this is compounded by throwing around five figure bets. No pal of mine could actually afford to buy a cruiser worthy of the name, all yachts are bloody expensive. I'm off back to read the threads about little MAB sailing on a budget. This thread has not at all lowered my opinion of Bavarias which are boats I'd love to own. Their owners, however, are another matter entirely.
Cheers
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
Certainly. Then nevertheless worthy to remind some boats treat their crews better.
This was serious race, and most boats manned by serious, well experienced racers. Best there were. Who came there to win.
Who complained about "boats suddenly becoming impossible to manage or steer"...
"Assent" (CO32) was crewed by inexperienced newcomers from sailing school, or so I heard. Two were seasick, but only for a while. They were going against it all the time, keeping watch at helm; not finding it necessary to adopt "survival tactics". This boat was, funnily, the only one without any electronics whatsowever - and the only one to finish.
Personally I don't like Contessa much. But not to critique the crew...
+ 1
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Otter
Well-Known Member
I still amazes me that a 32 foot cruiser/racer could be designed in the 70's with no loo compartment.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
"Assent" (CO32) was crewed by inexperienced newcomers from sailing school, or so I heard. Two were seasick, but only for a while. They were going against it all the time, keeping watch at helm; not finding it necessary to adopt "survival tactics". This boat was, funnily, the only one without any electronics whatsowever - and the only one to finish. Personally I don't like Contessa much. But not to critique the crew...
Hmmmmm. No, I think we should critique the Assents a bit.
Bob Fisher's "The Fastnet Disaster and After" makes no mention of a sailing school or lack of experience.
What Fisher does say is they were a young fit crew who were hoping to be first of the Contessas (as indeed they were.) At least two of them were capable of decent sail repair under way.
Some quotes about the Assents: "They sailed well as a team ... They enjoyed the sail ... Their Seamanship in a small boat was outstanding. They went to sea in a boat they knew they could trust and they raced hard ... Noone was more deserving of success.". They can't be dismissed as "inexperienced newcomers from sailing school" even if it's true, which I doubt.
In Bob Fisher's eyes and in actuality they were clearly an excellent crew and if there were any doubt about that they proved it by being the only Contessa to finish - I think it's worth setting the record straight!
They had RDF [1], and of course, they were the only finisher in Class V, not the only finisher in the '79 Fastnet.
The broader point: What does the '79 Fastnet prove about MABs vs AWBs?
Damn all IMHO.
Many Fin Keelers finished, despite the fact they were often highly strung fin keelers built to rules that often encouraged "weaker" designs. IIRC Winston Churchill (about as far from an AWB as you can get) survived the '79 Fastnet and then was lost in the Sydney-Hobart. Assent, the only Contessa to finish was knocked down - it could easily have lost its mast at that moment and the rigging punch a hole in the boat. Would we then be drawing the opposite conclusion about MABs? Interestingly, the Assents felt their Contessa was under far more stress after they'd weathered the strom and they were making progress again. So what does storm survival prove if under full sail in a decnt blow the boat is actually under more stress? [2]
So I think there are are too many variables in the 79 Fastnet to draw a MAB/AWB conclusion.
My 2ps worth.
[1] Was RDF allowed in those days? The Assents certainly used it. Too late for a protest?
[2] Digression: Something I've often thought in Gales. Yeah there's noise but in terms of actual stress on the boat I wonder much strain there really is. Is surfing fast downwind in a 9 with a scrap of main up and a tiny jib really more stress on the boat than dragging the boat along with full main and kite in a F6? Especially on a gusty day with a broach or two. I'd love to hear if anyone's ever measured/calculated it. I've never thought we were going to lose the mast in a gale. I often winced in a 'normal' race and thought this time it will go.
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Rossynant
Well-Known Member
All I know about is from RORC report and what heard from participants of Poland. Imho MAB/AWB discussion is pointless, especially as I would treat C32 as AWB.
But a discussion about design aspects of boats is not. Boats are not made equal, obvious thing, then again any pub discussion seems to show most sailors have no idea what certain design features were meant to serve for, or how to handle certain kinds of boats, rigs, and so on. Instead most talk about how many it sleeps, how high it points, and such. And how well she handled when it was, hear, hear! gusting up to thirty!
And then I'm told, on a forum I read to learn from more experienced, that every boat will be allways rolled over by wave equal in height to boat's beam. Proven by tank testing and written plainly in Heavy Weather Sailing...
It seem C32, of quite small a beam, was not. Just interesting fact.
But a discussion about design aspects of boats is not. Boats are not made equal, obvious thing, then again any pub discussion seems to show most sailors have no idea what certain design features were meant to serve for, or how to handle certain kinds of boats, rigs, and so on. Instead most talk about how many it sleeps, how high it points, and such. And how well she handled when it was, hear, hear! gusting up to thirty!
And then I'm told, on a forum I read to learn from more experienced, that every boat will be allways rolled over by wave equal in height to boat's beam. Proven by tank testing and written plainly in Heavy Weather Sailing...
It seem C32, of quite small a beam, was not. Just interesting fact.
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toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
On this we are in total agreement.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
And then I'm told, on a forum I read to learn from more experienced, that every boat will be always rolled over by wave equal in height to boat's beam. Proven by tank testing and written plainly in Heavy Weather Sailing...
It seem C32, of quite small a beam, was not. Just interesting fact.
But is like so many of your 'facts' that are wilfully misrepresented to advanced your entrenched and narrow viewpoint.
No one has said a boat will always be rolled by a breaking wave equal or more than its beam. Reference was made to research that showed that once a breaking wave is equal in height to a keel boat's beam, it has both the energy and mechanism to roll a vessel. However, you fail to understand that breaking waves are extremely rare in open water and a vessel would have to be beam on and stationary as well. Therefore statistically such events are rare, but well enough documented that no-one today advocates 'lying-a-hull' as a viable storm survival technique.
But the point was mentioned after one of your diatribes against modern sailboats where you used the capsize of a yacht in a shallow water breaking wave found in a harbour entrance as an example of the shortcomings of recent designs. It was simply pointed out that without the power to outrun such a wave, or perhaps the use of some passive drag system, then all keel boats are susceptible to broaching, and being rolled in such circumstances, irrespective of their design.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
The Fastnet is a serious race but has always attracted club racers who just want to take part. Classes 3, 4 and 5 were dominated by ordinary club sailors who frequently would have scraped around to fill the last places in a crew and it was certainly not unusual for people to do the Fastnet as their first offshore race. Minimum race requirements to do qualifying events and take specific survival courses only came later.
Your comments about serious sailors might have applied to Admirals Cup teams, but although the Fastnet race was included in the series, entry wasn't restricted to them. And anyway, the cup boats were all Class 1 and 2, and these together with Class 0 didn't have anything like the problems of the smaller boats. In fact I think only one AC boat was abandoned (One of the Holland Apples IIRC). But even the Hong Kong team that came third overall in the Admiral's Cup, they were just regular club sailors from one club (RHKYC).
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Yeah, that put the missus off big time. So we bought a Bavaria.
Bav34
...
Well that's a little bit harsh
but as you say, you never read Bavaria threads so you obviously didn't get the context.There is another thread entitled Bavaria Bashers Beware.
It of course, bought out the usual suspects, vitriol and all. God knows why. As I've said before its very much a one-way street and your decision is very wise. Nothing new is ever added and as far as I am concerned, although they are entitled to their opinions I find the detractors just a little bit sad. Hey ho.
The POINT of my post was NOT to taunt. There was an element of wind-up that was picked up by the more intelligent members of the forum. Most seemed to find it amusing which was the intent. How far did YOU get believing that it was a Bavaria survey? At no stage did I say it was.
It was done for a little bit of amusement but also to point out that at eleven years old one 'classic' was not fit to sail ... my AWB still awaits its first problem. That's all. A statistical pot of two boats proves f all ... I know that, I assume you do.
But didn't you find the defence of the Contessa and its ilk 'interesting'?
Bavaria and other AWB owners are supposed to be the defensive ones. Well according to the MAB owners we are.
Hmmm.
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
Yup, that's what I was "mentioning in one of diatribes", but only to say that how boats may behave in heavy seas is not exactly " irrespective of their design" - simply because this is what designer should consider. It's his job, after all.
Sorry to hear that I'm taken as being against "modern design". Well, still being alive, I can see new designs - some quite seaworthy, some not. Both being "modern"
FullCircle
Well-Known Member
Well that's a little bit harsh
There is another thread entitled Bavaria Bashers Beware.
It of course, bought out the usual suspects, vitriol and all. God knows why. As I've said before its very much a one-way street and your decision is very wise. Nothing new is ever added and as far as I am concerned, although they are entitled to their opinions I find the detractors just a little bit sad. Hey ho.
The POINT of my post was NOT to taunt. There was an element of wind-up that was picked up by the more intelligent members of the forum. Most seemed to find it amusing which was the intent. How far did YOU get believing that it was a Bavaria survey? At no stage did I say it was.
It was done for a little bit of amusement but also to point out that at eleven years old one 'classic' was not fit to sail ... my AWB still awaits its first problem. That's all. A statistical pot of two boats proves f all ... I know that, I assume you do.
But didn't you find the defence of the Contessa and its ilk 'interesting'?
Bavaria and other AWB owners are supposed to be the defensive ones. Well according to the MAB owners we are.
Hmmm.
Hallelujah Brother, I feel the light.
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
Why is a French or German built plastic tub of an AWB any less likely to make it past 40 years old than your own?
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
No reason. Beautifull old german AWB my ex-crew girl owns now, about 40 years, no repairs really needed. I would risk a guess, though, that better made then average. Germans were building quality boats, at least when I knew this closer, better quality then contessa I'd risk to remark
Grumpybear
Well-Known Member
No reason. Beautifull old german AWB my ex-crew girl owns now, about 40 years, no repairs really needed. I would risk a guess, though, that better made then average. Germans were building quality boats, at least when I knew this closer, better quality then contessa I'd risk to remark
Oooooooooh!
Mark you, keel problems with many Centaurs get shrugged off and just fixed, while a smaller number (much smaller proportionately) with Bavarias are misrepresented as fundamental design flaws and evidence of unsuitability.
Funny that.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
And just to add to the "fun", the Centaur's successor, the Griffon still had problems in that area and 270 boats were built before they beefed them up. The warranty costs led to one of the company's bankruptcies!
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
This is why this thread has been so successful for Bav34 and any other Bavaria owners. For the sake of any newcomers to the forums, the routine practice whenever a Bavaria thread is started, any number of MAB owners pitch in with comments like "What a Bavaria with a keel?!" Gwaff gwaff gwaff. And other such infantile repetitive remarks. It happens just about every time. When Bavaria owners take offence, they are accused of being sensitive, funny that.
So now we have a thread where a Bavaria owner has after a little research, found that a much beloved plastic classic (nice looking boat) is far from perfect itself in build. Latterly, two other posters have highlighted two other MAB's which had many more keel problems than any Bavaria model has ever had.
I reckon if the MAB contingency cant take a bit of a joke, they shouldnt take the 'P' so much themselves.
So now we have a thread where a Bavaria owner has after a little research, found that a much beloved plastic classic (nice looking boat) is far from perfect itself in build. Latterly, two other posters have highlighted two other MAB's which had many more keel problems than any Bavaria model has ever had.
I reckon if the MAB contingency cant take a bit of a joke, they shouldnt take the 'P' so much themselves.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Nicely done Bav34. I confess to being taken in by your clever presentation of the survey, and entertained by it all. If only more threads were as subtle!
