Thinking of buying an 11 year old yacht?

[Baggywrinkle]

The Bavaria keel issue will eventually be consigned to the rubbish bin of history. Every generation needs a boat disaster to demonstrate the superiority of their older boats over newer designs.

In my fathers day it was the unfortunate demise of Angus Primrose in his Moody 33 that demonstrated that boats built in the 60s/70s were far more seaworthy - if there had been internet forums then I'm sure they'd be filled with Moody jokes - after all they were the hideous modern floating caravans of the 80s to the traditionalists of the time.

 

[aslabend]

The Bavaria keel issue will eventually be consigned to the rubbish bin of history. Every generation needs a boat disaster to demonstrate the superiority of their older boats over newer designs.

In my fathers day it was the unfortunate demise of Angus Primrose in his Moody 33 that demonstrated that boats built in the 60s/70s were far more seaworthy - if there had been internet forums then I'm sure they'd be filled with Moody jokes - after all they were the hideous modern floating caravans of the 80s to the traditionalists of the time.

I Think the only reason anyone mentions bavarias and keels is the fact that Bavaria owners are rather sensitive about the subject and everyone enjoys getting a rise out of them.

 

[Rossynant]

Has anyone explored the possibility that the survival of the CO32 in 79 Fastnet was down to luck that the boat was designed the way it was rather than it being designed to survive those conditions.

Yup, some did. With detailed calculations.

Remember being told by participants that the storm was perfectly "sailable in every direction" - but for boat stable enough to carry enough sail. This was from bigger boat, but very modern and light racing construction - Cetus.
They had to go against steep waves, so needed speed and drive. Race, after all - they carried as much as possible, until bows started to break under load... But they made it with no further problems, only had to reduce sail and lost leading position.
Two other boats from Poland went with no problems. This was a team for Admiral's Cup.
Cetus in race: http://www.zagle.com.pl/media/artic...5c737b6e5ab9b573dad679a86e51cdf_oryginal.jpeg

I'd say Contessa being heavier was able to carry sail, also to go to windward effectively in tumultus waters. The only real difference here from more modern boats is keel length (aspect ratio), as higher aspect fin stalls easier in disturbed flow and low speed.
Not sure, but she was sailed by instructor with his students, I heard?

P.S. I should add to whole discussion: from my old fashion point of view, both Contessa and Bavaria fall into AWB boats. Plastic, modern, lightweight, racy finkeelers.

 

[Bav34]

Oh dear, so I am the victim of Bav34's hilarious well-crafted wind-up. I hope he has gained sufficient satisfaction from it after spending all that time trawling t'internet for disparaging words and photographs of Contessa 32s. There are, of course, lots of other pictures and writings that show the marque in a far better light but he wouldn't want to admit to those. It is really shocking that there are examples of a 41 year build run of yachts that are less than pristine!

I wish I knew what I have done that makes it worth Bav34's time to expend his efforts thus. Since his last outburst I have almost entirely stayed out of the MAB/AWB spat on the "Why do ...." thread; posted a picture of what I believe is the latest Bav on the "Bav Bashers.." thread, a boat that I actually like; posted a picture (saved on Photobucket from a previous posting) of hurricane damage with a reference to Tarzan's (fictional) elephants' graveyard and corrected a poster who seemed unaware of Bav's past financial troubles on the "Bav Graveyard" thread; and finally been complementary on the latest Bav offering on this thread. Apparently this is "continued criticism" and has been sufficiently vitriolic to push Bav34's insecurities over the edge. I hope the result has been sufficiently cathartic.
As Bav34 seems to have time to spare perhaps he could supply links to the alleged CO32 survey, and also to posts where I have been rude and/or been critical of his beloved Bavs? I am guilty of being content with my boat and have even posted on the reasons why. Just a thought - did you give IPC the benefits of your thoughts after their Bav/CO32 sail-off?

A bit too tired to work through multi-quotes so here's a brief response to some of your points.



I hope he has gained sufficient satisfaction from it after spending all that time trawling t'internet for disparaging words and photographs of Contessa 32s.

Well I had little else to do prior to Xmas as I was recovering from 8 operations for cancer so my time was pretty much my own.

Oh, here's a photo for you ... you seem to need proof of what I write ... if you require further evidence I can obtain a copy of my Consultants notes ... apparently I was lucky to make it through to the New Year.

Pic deleted

Do let me know.




I wish I knew what I have done that makes it worth Bav34's time to expend his efforts thus.

Merely trying to maintain a balance against your vitriol .




I have almost entirely stayed out of the MAB/AWB spat

Isn't that a bit like being nearly pregnant?




to push Bav34's insecurities over the edge.

Funny stuff. I've always found insecure people to be the ones who tend to stay more in the background, afraid to express themselves. You surely can't be talking about me? Oh ... of course you are. How odd.





As Bav34 seems to have time to spare perhaps he could supply links to the alleged CO32 survey,

Here is the Note created from copying directly from the Internet on the 15th of December.

However, you are again calling me a liar. Interesting. Can't really remember that as peoples assessment of me "life to date'

So now I guess it's time for you to put up or shut up.

I can pull £25000 out of some instant accounts by this Friday, £50000 by this time next week.

On open forum here is the offer.

You match the sums.

To be deposited at an independent solicitors.

Costs to be taken from the total deposited.

The part of the survey that you think I invented (good grief) when located must match word for word what I printed on this forum.

As I will win, your deposit to be sent straight to Help for Heroes ... I don't need the money.

I wouldn't really plan what to do with your winnings. Oh, but hang on, this is clearly a bluff as you so adamantly believe I fabricated the survey.

Yes, no?



Lets get that out of the way and I'll consider replying to the rest of your rantings. Still feel a little tired but hey my hair is growing back.

All open forum please.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I Think the only reason anyone mentions bavarias and keels is the fact that Bavaria owners are rather sensitive about the subject and everyone enjoys getting a rise out of them.

No they are not, they just get fed up with the same boring jokes.

 

[Tranona]

To be fair though, someone who buys a characterful CO32 would probably never buy a characterless Bav and someone who buys shiny a Bav would probably not buy a manky old CO32.

hey-ho

Not sure that is the case. It may be now as you can't buy most Bavarias for the same price as a CO32.

However boats of the size and type we are talking about are often (usually?) bought by experienced people who have had a range of boats in the past including what we term MABs so have a pretty good idea of whats what. You rarely find them wanting to go back to old boats through choice.

The great attraction of old boats in today's market is their relatively low price which allows people to own a substantial boat of a size that would be out of their reach financially if they had to pay new (or newer) prices. It is clear that people who have the money and are prepared to spend it make different choices from those who don't have the money.

 

[awol]

A bit too tired to work through multi-quotes so here's a brief response to some of your points................ etc.

You have my sympathy for your health problems and I hope you are on your way to a full recovery. My very best wishes for the future.

I wasn't aware I was ranting and at no time have I called you a liar, just asked for evidence of a claim that was accompanied by a medley of pictures that were unrelated. You may feel offended that I don't immediately take your statements as irrefutable truth without any evidence, but scepticism is not the same as calling you a liar.

The "checks" in your list are eminently sensible and cover some of the problems that have been found in the past. Sealing the shroud u-bolts is a relatively trivial task but the backstay could be a real problem. I'd still like to know the date of the survey to gauge the build time of the boat.

If you have had your OP ready since Dec just for me to enter one of the many Bav threads, I do apologise for keeping you waiting. I shall probably give you cause to defend your favourite marque again sometime in the future. ..... and I really do like the look of the B/one.

Best wishes again for your recuperation.

 

[Bav34]

You have my sympathy for your health problems and I hope you are on your way to a full recovery. My very best wishes for the future.

I wasn't aware I was ranting and at no time have I called you a liar, just asked for evidence of a claim that was accompanied by a medley of pictures that were unrelated. You may feel offended that I don't immediately take your statements as irrefutable truth without any evidence, but scepticism is not the same as calling you a liar.

The "checks" in your list are eminently sensible and cover some of the problems that have been found in the past. Sealing the shroud u-bolts is a relatively trivial task but the backstay could be a real problem. I'd still like to know the date of the survey to gauge the build time of the boat.

If you have had your OP ready since Dec just for me to enter one of the many Bav threads, I do apologise for keeping you waiting. I shall probably give you cause to defend your favourite marque again sometime in the future. ..... and I really do like the look of the B/one.

Best wishes again for your recuperation.

Thank you for your kind thoughts AWOL. I had to think long and hard about publishing such personal details but you wouldn't stop pushing. I have now deleted the photo.

I have not had anything prepared since December to trap you which seems to be your belief.

I had time on my hands in December (irony smiley please) and merely copied and pasted some negative observations on what I am sure is a fine marque ... just not for me or thousands of others. Balance, that's all.

I found it quite interesting to make the post at the time of another Bavaria bashing session. As said, my boat is now eleven years old with absolutely zero defects related to its build process.

If YOU get bored feel free to browse

Here


http://photobucket.com/albums/u286/moonshine33/Bavaria 34 exterior

http://photobucket.com/albums/u286/moonshine33/Bavaria 34 Interior



and although I don't expect you to like all you see, it's hardly a boat that's going to spontaneously crumble in to the sea.

Is it?

 

[Bobc]

KNOCK KNOCK.....


















Oh bugger, not the keel again!

 

[davidej]

good one

had em going I bet

D

Never a truer word spoken

 

[Blueboatman]

I am saddened slightly when, in the Lounge of all places, Haydn's recent sad loss has shown the spectacular warmth and practical, real help that YBW forums can generate when all pulling on the same rope.

Makes my misgivings and worries about what's-going-to-fail-next on whichever boat marque seem absurdly irrelevant.
I enjoy the wit and particular specialities of Bav34 and AWOL both, long may that be so..in a pub t'would never get beyond amiable banter and ' who's round is it next?' level, so cheers guys , and one day I am sure that one day may be so in an actual pub- no it's not my round, is it! Is it?

 

[Three kings]

On a cursory glance - BAV 34 took matters a bit too personally and resorted to blagging. Has been sussed rapid but wont back down - grow up FFS

 

[jordanbasset]

I think Bav 34 made a good post, had me going until I got to the end. Nothing wrong with it.

 

[jamesjermain]

Nice one Bav 34. Early Contessa 32s were renowned for their poor chainplates. It's not widely remembered now but the Co32 was thought of at the time as being a flighty racer built too lightly for consideration by serious sailors who tended towards Rivals, Elizabethans, Westerlies etc. In this regard she might be thought of an an early incarnation of a Pogo - a production version of a dedicated race machine. But back in the 60s we still all lusted after one.

 

[awol]

Nice one Bav 34. Early Contessa 32s were renowned for their poor chainplates. .......... But back in the 60s we still all lusted after one.

Surely your lust was in the 70s & 80s - this iconic, beautiful, robust, fun-to-sail, seaworthy, etc., etc. wasn't designed until 1970 and won "Boat of the Show" on her launch in 1971. There is a story (possibly apocryphal) of a guy who wanted to beef up the standing rigging for high latitude sailing but was advised it was a waste of time as it would make it stronger than the hull fixings. However, when I inadvertently (don't ask!) caught my rigging on the anchor* of a moored 58tonne yacht (rafted to a 38tonne yacht!) while travelling at about 6kts under engine, I can report all 3 shrouds broke, the spreader folded but the hull fixings remained intact to the satisfaction of the surveyor - and the mast stayed up.

* It was a CQR which, like its host, was also undamaged unlike some of the modern flimsy designs now foisted on an unsophisticated public who defend their choice as vehemently as a she-wolf protects her young.

 

[doug748]

One thing CO32's will always have? A slight mystique over how well they did in the 79 fastnet.
One thing Bavarias will always have? A reputation for Keels falling off.

Sorry, it's just so unfair I know, but that is the way the world works.
People will always have a thing for CO32's whatever the failings and people will buy Bavs whatever the failings.

To be fair though, someone who buys a characterful CO32 would probably never buy a characterless Bav and someone who buys shiny a Bav would probably not buy a manky old CO32.

hey-ho

Very good, just about sums it up.

If you want a boat of the 1970's typical type I think you can get better value than a Contessa. But, of course, it would not be a Contessa.

A few years ago YM ran a feature to discover the most loved small boat in the UK, the CO32 won by a landslide. The hacks in charge were so shocked it was hushed up. Coo, like a cold war spy story it was.

 

[Mark-1]

I think Bav 34 made a good post, had me going until I got to the end. Nothing wrong with it.

+1.

 

[jamesjermain]

Quite so. Sorry.

 

[jamesjermain]

I raise the following not to bash Bavs nor to fan the flames of this debate, but because I think it exemplifies why some people hate Bavarias and why others are entirely happy with their choice.

In the current Yachting World is the story of a Bav 50 which had to have its rudder rebuilt before the start of the ARC last year. The outsourced rudder on this five-year-old boat had clearly been poorly build, poorly engineered and not quality checked by Bavaria. That's one side. The other is that, asked if he would buy another Bavaria the Norwegian owner replied: 'Yes, but I know what I'm buying'.

I did, however, find the response from Bavaria a bit disappointing and dismissive.

 

[TiggerToo]

Bav34: you miss the point entirely. The question is: DOES THE C032 still have its keel on? The rest does not matter