The end of paper charts is nigh!

[dunedin]

There's no reason why such features should be expensive though.

You normally have a track as a position history but it'd be useful to have timed gaps like hourly markers for instance.

But chart plotters do tend to be very expensive, And most people seem to try to keep them for 10 years or so, if they keep functioning.
And the plotter suppliers seem to like issuing new software features only for the latest kit

So even if such features were to be developed in the next 6-12 months, few boats would have plotters with such capabilities before UKHO stop issuing paper chart alternatives. And a “phased withdrawal” “completed by end 2026” could mean UKHO paper leisure charts withdrawn anytime from now.

 

[mm42]

Those of you concerned about the chance of GNSS being jammed by hostile states and their actors, can I ask how many of you are likely to be sailing in a war zone during a time of conflict?

In the commercial world paperless nav is rapidly becoming the norm across vessel sizes. ECDIS became mandatory for passenger ships over 500gt and cargo ships engaged in International trade of 3000gt or more as far back as 2011, and lots of companies finding it easier to stay compliant by having the required backup in the form of another ECDIS.

Yet still this forum is full of people worrying about Russia jamming their GNSS and them suddenly being unable to navigate on what is more or less likely to be short, near-coastal pleasure cruises.

 

[st599]

Those of you concerned about the chance of GNSS being jammed by hostile states and their actors, can I ask how many of you are likely to be sailing in a war zone during a time of conflict?

In the commercial world paperless nav is rapidly becoming the norm across vessel sizes. ECDIS became mandatory for passenger ships over 500gt and cargo ships engaged in International trade of 3000gt or more as far back as 2011, and lots of companies finding it easier to stay compliant by having the required backup in the form of another ECDIS.

Yet still this forum is full of people worrying about Russia jamming their GNSS and them suddenly being unable to navigate on what is more or less likely to be short, near-coastal pleasure cruises.

And how suitable is a full ECDIS system for installation on a 35' coded sailing yacht?

 

[mm42]

And how suitable is a full ECDIS system for installation on a 35' coded sailing yacht?

Its not, but I’ll ask again, coded or not are you likely to be sailing in a war zone in a time of conflict where GNSS jamming is a little more likely? The paranoia is laughable.

 

[st599]

Its not, but I’ll ask again, coded or not are you likely to be sailing in a war zone in a time of conflict where GNSS jamming is a little more likely? The paranoia is laughable.

No, but for the coding you need an approved navigation system, i.e. not a chart plotter with the "not for navigation" loading screen.

At the moment that's a full ECDIS. Although I note RIN are tying to get an ECDIS lite approved.

 

[boomerangben]

Its not, but I’ll ask again, coded or not are you likely to be sailing in a war zone in a time of conflict where GNSS jamming is a little more likely? The paranoia is laughable.

The Royal Navy/Army/RAF regularly jam GPS at various places around the country during exercises. Local fishermen here complained and one was rumoured to have run aground. They were doing it around the SW of Scotland last week and Northumberland for most of June and July although probably more inland than coastal. To be frank, I have only had a GPS signal fail a couple of times due to jamming, but was in an aircraft

 

[Refueler]

Finally UKHO is planning its cessation of paper charts ... having brought together chart houses to create the organisation in 1795 .....

Withdraw from paper chart | ADMIRALTY

Intention is to phase out by 2026.

So my post was moved to here .. having not seen this existing thread ......

 

[Refueler]

Personally ... after leaving school - I joined MN and worked my way up the 'Officer' ladder ... spent years maintaining worldwide chart folios ... was on ships testing and reviewing electronic nav systems ...
Alongside that from early age - sailed yachts and watched yachting literally overtake shipping.

I have folios of paper charts ... UK ... Baltics .... etc. that are well out of date - most extracted from the cancelled chart draw of ships I sailed. I find them far better for general overview of planning a cruise than scrolling a screen.
I have plotters and PC based charting. But none of them have that 'feel'.
I carry relevant paper charts when I cruise - but having 'mapped out' the itinery on paper ... then to plotter. I make my cruise using the plotter.

I think I am not alone in that.

My cancelled charts ... they will continue to be of use till I retire from any yachting ... maybe then I will create Lampshades out of them ... paper a wall or whatever ....

 

[Scomber]

And if china get a hold of taiwan and stop all those chippy bits ?

 

[Refueler]

And if china get a hold of taiwan and stop all those chippy bits ?

mmmmm bit out of date there methinks .............. various countries produce chips now .... the only problem is the base materials supply to factories has dwindled ....

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well in considering the pros and cons of Electronic Charts ver Paper ones , from my very limited experience its ONLY the paper ones , (the Admiralty ver) that have sufficient accurate detail to Ditch Crawl safely in this country

Them electronic ones appear to just place one in the Same River , Sea that one already knows on is in , caus thats where we Launched or Set Sail from !

 

[glynd]

Planning in general is likely the biggest question. A friend asked last night “how do I do a course to steer on a plotter”
Presumably this is the ecdis lite that as yet doesn’t exist!

 

[st599]

Planning in general is likely the biggest question. A friend asked last night “how do I do a course to steer on a plotter”
Presumably this is the ecdis lite that as yet doesn’t exist!

Plus the ability to add position data from non GNSS means - like a 3 point fix

 

[SaltyC]

Its not, but I’ll ask again, coded or not are you likely to be sailing in a war zone in a time of conflict where GNSS jamming is a little more likely? The paranoia is laughable.

Very unlikely, so I can happily rely on electronics - until I don't have power for whatever reason, EVERYTHING SHUTS DOWN , Now what?
I can resort to the obsolete, old fashioned bits of paper with a cross x marks tghe spot within the last hour. Plus flappy power to move the boat.
It used to be called 'Plan B' what is yours?

 

[noelex]

Plus the ability to add position data from non GNSS means - like a 3 point fix

This can be done. The easiest way on most systems is to use the route tool to draw the lines (the bearing of the lines will be automatically calculated and displayed). You can the add a waypoint in the centre of the cocked hat.

It is not as convenient, or as satisfying as a paper chart, but something that is worth practicing.

If the GPS fails (or you want to confirm it’s accuracy) you can still use most paper chart techniques on digital charts. Some techniques such as clearance bearings are particularly useful when used in conjunction with a functioning GPS system.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Radar might help dep

This can be done. The easiest way on most systems is to use the route tool to draw the lines (the bearing of the lines will be automatically calculated displayed). You can the add a waypoint in the centre of the cocked hat.

It is not as convenient, or as satisfying as a paper chart, but something that is worth practicing.

Also, Radar might help if the range is good. I believe ships often used it for navigation. I'm sure our Captain Sensible has used it some time or other in his deliveries.

 

[lustyd]

Our house's chimney & TV aerial was hit by lighting, we had to replace all electronics that was plugged in at the time.

If pointless anecdote is your thing then my friends uncles cat had a flood and all the paper was ruined. His cousins dogs goldfish had a fire and all the paper went up in smoke. It’s easy to imagine scenarios where things might fail, but far better to look at the real world where people have 10 or more GPS devices on board and usually 4 or more capable of displaying charts. My wrist watch has sufficient charts on board for most activity within cruising distance!

 

[Refueler]

Radar might help dep

Also, Radar might help if the range is good. I believe ships often used it for navigation. I'm sure our Captain Sensible has used it some time or other in his deliveries.

Ships convention traditionally : (17yrs navigating ships from 700 up to 440,000 tons)

Visual bearings of fixed objects where possible took prime position.
then Radar bearings / ranges of fixed objects
then Electronic position fixing ie Decca, Loran, Omega
then Sextant (Cellestial Nav)
then RDF bearings
etc

SatNav such as Transit for Merchant Shipping was regarded with caution and wherever possible to be checked by any other means available.
GPS which replaced Transit has taken time to be accepted alone .. it still is not fully accepted by many old-hands who prefer trad methods.

A plotter prog on PC or standalone plotter can be used without GPS input ..... as long as it accepts to display charts without first initialising GPS reception. "Reverse bearing lines" ... basically using the observed object as ref point and reversing the bearing back towards you ... where 2 or more cross indicates your position ...
You can even do the 'station pointer paper trick' ..... take paper you can see through ... cellophane if necessary. Draw the bearing lines on ... place on screen. No different to doing it on a paper chart.

 

[mm42]

It used to be called 'Plan B' what is yours?

My plan B is one of the many other GNSS devices we carry. Even my mobile has a copy of Navionics on it with UK and EU charts on it.

You crack on with your paranoia, maybe take a lead line in case you don’t trust the soundings too, and a sundial lest your watch fail for your celestial sightings.

The rest of us in the real world, and in particularly the professional world, accept that time and technology is moving on.

 

[capnsensible]

Same old. Not everyone owns their own boat. And not everyone stuffs it full of gadgets. Nothing wrong with that if you do, but doing yacht deliveries gives you all sorts of insights into how other people operate their boats.

Some tides ago I was with my wife on our own yacht entering a bay on the island of Culebra in the American Virgin Islands. The echo sounder had thrown its legs in the air so we sounded our way into a very pleasant anchorage using the lead line. As you do.