Sun Fizz Keel Bolts

[David52]

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

I suspect that I am about to try and draw a couple of keel bolts on my Sunfizz.

The bolts are glassed over in side and thus show no signs of anything bad. The keel however is rusty - I have no rerason to believe that the bolts are not the 23 year old originals - or that any have been inspected by previous owners - paranoia (and a gentle recomendation from the surveyor) are forcing my hand.

The bolts are well supported inside, on decent plates, again with no signs of corosion.

One thing I do not know is how the bolts are fitted into the keet - I have now read up on 6 different ways bolts keels and boats fit together - but have not been able to find anyone who can advise me on how the Sunfizz bolts lie.

I have tried emailing Jeanneau - but they seem to be busy.

???

 

[JonJon]

Interested to know how you get on with this, havent attempted that one yet although mine comes out of the water next week.

Just remember there isnt any room on an edge!

 

[David52]

Trust me there plenty of room on the edge. I'll just move over...

Tell me are your bolt tops glassed over, is this a from new feature?

 

[JonJon]

Yes they are glassed over, look good to me pretty sure they were like this from new - no sign of additional glassing. But I guess they all look good from the top.

 

[trouville]

Dosent an ex-ray and modern imaging help? In the past my boat was ex-rayed by a previouse owner to show the exact? diameter condition of the bolts??

Never heard of a keel failing on a sunfizz or ginfizz. Then you could go on on statistics and fingers crossed?? Really good boats!! Really well built being made for charter

 

[David52]

Spent the entire week end unglassing and de-nutting (should their be such a verb) 2 keel bolts. As per instructions Locked to nuts together to give me some purchase on a bolt and then turned, well tried to turn. Used wedges, leavers, hammers all to no avail.

In a fit of pique I found the strongest looking adjustable spanner I have - cast iron pre war Job - and put a 1.5 tonne bottle jack against the stringer. The jack wimped out. Does any one care to comment? If the bolts can take 1.5 tonnes + lever effect of a 12 in wrench would this be a fair indication that they are sound?

Of course I could have irrecoverably damaged them so that the keel drops off as soon as the boat is lifted - said a friend on mine trying not to smirk - "Cheerful bugger" was my reply..

As far as X-ray goes I have been informed (hear say only) that the bit of the bolt most likely to be wasted is inaccessible to the x-ray machine.

I have, on my travels, discovered that the "flat top" of the keel is placed in a recess in the hull which is sandwich filled with sealant first. Thus is it possible that my bolts have never seen water in their 20 years of sea life?

Any help - even facetious comments would be gratefully received.

At this rate my only option is to undo all the bolts drop the keel - check them - re-bed the thing and sail away - nursing the new void in my wallet that this would create.

Help?@!!

 

[iangrant]

This may help
I had a Jeanneau Symphonie - probably about the same era of build as yours.

The keel bolts were indeed glassed over but it was fairly easy to grind it away.
You can turn the bolts until you are blue in the face because they will have a lock nut on the other end.!!!
Look along the keel and about six inches down from the keel joint, tap the keel and you should find the fibreglass covers of the hole the lock nuts live in.

Hope this is clear, bit difficult to describe.

Ian

 

[iangrant]

Oh and BTW there was an awful long debate about the type of steel to use for the new bolts I had machined up. In the end the engineer said to use high tensile NOT stainless metal.
Stainless rusts when starved of oxygen.

Ian

 

[David52]

Thanks Ian - So I take it your's did need replacing - So I should continue this entertaining quest - erg..

 

[iangrant]

I had to remove the keel so I had to replace the bolts (studs). The reason for removing the beastly thing was a leak at the back end of the keel, rusty water in the bilge!

I'd be tempted to chip off the nut covers in the keel as described and have a look at the nuts and threads in the holes. In reality the bolts that came out when I did mine were like new, except the one that had been leaking.

If you do go about replacing the bolts I's suggest that to remove the keel, clean the surfaces and sikaflex the joint - bolt up tight, BIG wrench with a scaffold pole did it (on advice from engineering Co that made the studs).
All this involved the use of the yard crane and large amounts of money (bolts were 300 quid) crane hire etc....


In hindsight, I should have left it alone perhaps?

Anyway best of luck

Ian

 

[David52]

Ulrika - or whatever. Thanks for the tip Ian definitely pointed me in the right direction.

The Sun fizz employs keel bolts (I know now) which are counter sunk on the watery side with an Allen key slot. Taking your advice I ran around the top of the keel with a magnet until I found where it didn't stick. This was on the "flat" plate at the top of the keel. Scraped out the filler/sealant with a chisel and there were the bolt ends. A couple of blows to the internal side of the bolt and it fell out. Within 10 minutes I had done the same to another bolt also. The surveyor said to remove 2 from different parts of the keel. The good news, for me, is that the bolts are in almost perfect nick - only slight discoloured - with no wastage at all. I shall "glue" them back with my friend Sikka flex and glass back over them internally for that belt and braces feeling.
I did read somewhere about torque settings for keel bolts... Or should I just go for between Scaffold pole and hernia?

Any way JonJon assuming we have the same keels I heartily recommend this as an easy job (now I know how).

Thanks to everyone for their help on this one.

Rgds,

David

Now all or I need is for someone to stand under the boat will an Allen key so the bolts don't twist when I turn the nuts on!

 

[JonJon]

Many thanks all a very useful thread. My Fizz came out the water this morning. The rubber closing seal was hanging down like a tapeworm from the keel to hull flanged joint.

No sign of rust tho. Think I wont touch them as you all had good bolts anyway. But I had no idea the bolts were arranged as you describe I must also do a little research with a magnet.

 

[iangrant]

It is such a pleasure to be able to pass on snippits of info from painful experience and a big hammer!!. Go with the scaffold pole!
Glad it worked..

Ian

 

[trumes]

Ulrika - or whatever. Thanks for the tip Ian definitely pointed me in the right direction.

The Sun fizz employs keel bolts (I know now) which are counter sunk on the watery side with an Allen key slot. Taking your advice I ran around the top of the keel with a magnet until I found where it didn't stick. This was on the "flat" plate at the top of the keel. Scraped out the filler/sealant with a chisel and there were the bolt ends. A couple of blows to the internal side of the bolt and it fell out. Within 10 minutes I had done the same to another bolt also. The surveyor said to remove 2 from different parts of the keel. The good news, for me, is that the bolts are in almost perfect nick - only slight discoloured - with no wastage at all. I shall "glue" them back with my friend Sikka flex and glass back over them internally for that belt and braces feeling.
I did read somewhere about torque settings for keel bolts... Or should I just go for between Scaffold pole and hernia?

Any way JonJon assuming we have the same keels I heartily recommend this as an easy job (now I know how).

Thanks to everyone for their help on this one.

Rgds,

David

Now all or I need is for someone to stand under the boat will an Allen key so the bolts don't twist when I turn the nuts on!

Hi David,

I hope you’re still active on this forum, as I have a question about the keel bolts on my Sun Fizz that I'm trying to remove. Are these actually studs rather than bolts? Specifically, are the Allen bolts threaded into the cast iron keel and then topped off with a nut on the cabin side?

I managed to get the nut off, but the bolt or stud itself isn’t moving. I noticed you mentioned a tap with a hammer to get the bolt out, but I’m cautious about hammering in case the bolt is threaded into the keel, as I don’t want to damage the threads.

Thanks for any advice you can or anybody else can offer!

 

[trumes]

Hi All,

I'm now trying to remove bolts from the Sun Fizz Are these actually studs rather than bolts? Specifically, are the Allen bolts threaded into the cast iron keel and then topped off with a nut on the cabin side?

I managed to get the nut off, but the bolt or stud itself isn’t moving. I noticed in another thread on here (that is now dead), the OP mentioned a tap with a hammer to get the bolt out, but I’m cautious about hammering in case the bolt is threaded into the keel, as I don’t want to damage the threads.

Thanks for any advice you can offer!

 

[Tranona]

Hi All,

I'm now trying to remove bolts from the Sun Fizz Are these actually studs rather than bolts? Specifically, are the Allen bolts threaded into the cast iron keel and then topped off with a nut on the cabin side?

I managed to get the nut off, but the bolt or stud itself isn’t moving. I noticed in another thread on here (that is now dead), the OP mentioned a tap with a hammer to get the bolt out, but I’m cautious about hammering in case the bolt is threaded into the keel, as I don’t want to damage the threads.

Thanks for any advice you can offer!

Why are you doing this? There should be no need to touch the keel bolts at all unless there has been major damage or the seal between the keel and the hull has failed. In either of those cases it is not a good idea to buy the boat. Did you have a survey on this boat? Looking at your photos and your description of it lying unused for several years out there rings very loud alarm bells. Talk of doing work on the keel other than maybe cleaning it up before antifouling rings even louder alarm bells.

 

[trumes]

Alarm bells have already gone off, my friend—this is definitely a project boat! I’m restoring it and trying to find anyone with experience removing keel bolts on a Sun Fizz.

It looks like the underside wasn’t maintained well; the fairing has eroded, allowing water to seep in and corrode the bolts. No damage to the keel.

I like a challenge and I'm learning all the time. If nothing else, I’ll be keeping this forum busy with questions!

 

[trumes]

At least they are not as bad as this chaps!

https://imgur.com/a/keel

 

[Tranona]

Well, I hope you have very deep pockets and nothing else to do with your time as this type of project will test you! Seriously an experienced person would not touch this sort of thing with a barge pole even if given the boat. That is why yards around the world including where your boat is are full of abandoned dreams. They end up like this through neglect and successive owners being overwhelmed by the amount of work and money required to keep them running.

As you have already discovered Greece is now an awful place to get work done because the demand exceeds supply and they can charge what they want. Very different from 20+ years ago when I had my boat there. If you think a crane to lift the mast out is expensive you wait until you try and organise lifting the boat off the keel and then putting it back on again. Never mind the heavy tackle needed to safely handle three tonnes of unwieldy cast iron.

You will have difficulty finding anybody who has direct experience of removing the keel on a Sun Fizz simply because nobody in their right mind would consider doing it. It might well have been done 30 or 40 years ago when these boats were newer, desirable and worth spending money on - and probably an insurance job. Now old worn out boats like this are worthless.

Sorry to sound harsh, but just trying to save you endless grief and shed loads of money. Have you priced up your new running rigging yet? And are you going to replace the standing rigging? Does that furler work? Just bringing the rigging up to standard is £8-10K. And so it goes on with a boat that even in usable condition is not worth much more than £30k.

 

[Sea Change]

I can't speak for this specific model but it's absolutely routine to remove, inspect, and if necessary replace keel bolts on this age of boat. Beneteau will sell you the bolts for their boats, not sure about Jeanneau.

Hopefully you can track down somebody who has done the job on a Sun Fizz and figure out the process. Good luck!