Sun Fizz Keel Bolts

[Tranona]

There is a big difference between a cautionary inspection, which almost always shows that the bolts are as good as new and this situation where it seems the seal between the keel and the hull has failed and water has got up the bolts into the inside of the boat. This is a keel off job which apart from being a massive undertaking will cost a vast amount of money in Preveza where the boat is. That is assuming anybody will actually take it on.

The withdraw and inspect is a waste of time on most modern boats and comes from the old wooden boat days when it was often necessary. Modern boats, including the Sun Fizz have keels bedded in sealant, and in this case in a recess in the hull. It is never intended that they be removed unless there is damage that results in the sealant failing.

I have been through the removing keel and replacing keel bolts on a wooden boat, helped by a colleague whose PhD thesis was on the subject of corrosion in such situations. I still have the waisted bolts we removed - one was in 2 pieces but this was through bolts (not studs like a modern boat) going through cast iron then an oak keel with only canvas and putty as the seal between the keel and the wood plus a ring of oakum around the head of the bolt in a socket at the bottom of the keel. Handling the simple 1200kgs ballast keel was a challenge. Doing a similar job removing 4500kgs of boat from a 3 tonne fin keel in a recess in the hull requires expertise and kit of a different order of magnitude (and a lot of swearing in Greek).

 

[vyv_cox]

There is a big difference between a cautionary inspection, which almost always shows that the bolts are as good as new and this situation where it seems the seal between the keel and the hull has failed and water has got up the bolts into the inside of the boat. This is a keel off job which apart from being a massive undertaking will cost a vast amount of money in Preveza where the boat is. That is assuming anybody will actually take it on.

The withdraw and inspect is a waste of time on most modern boats and comes from the old wooden boat days when it was often necessary. Modern boats, including the Sun Fizz have keels bedded in sealant, and in this case in a recess in the hull. It is never intended that they be removed unless there is damage that results in the sealant failing.

I have been through the removing keel and replacing keel bolts on a wooden boat, helped by a colleague whose PhD thesis was on the subject of corrosion in such situations. I still have the waisted bolts we removed - one was in 2 pieces but this was through bolts (not studs like a modern boat) going through cast iron then an oak keel with only canvas and putty as the seal between the keel and the wood plus a ring of oakum around the head of the bolt in a socket at the bottom of the keel. Handling the simple 1200kgs ballast keel was a challenge. Doing a similar job removing 4500kgs of boat from a 3 tonne fin keel in a recess in the hull requires expertise and kit of a different order of magnitude (and a lot of swearing in Greek).

I have seen keels rebedded in Greece, one in Ionion Marine at Preveza, the other at Leros. When my son worked at yards in Greece he did a few. The Greeks are good at fixing things! In each case a cradle for the keel was built from scaffolding and the hull simply lifted off.

However I agree that it is rarely necessary with GRP boats.

 

[Tranona]

I know it is possible, but if you look at his other threads he is complaining about the high costs in Preveza and is not even prepared to pay the 300 euros an hour for a crane to unstep the mast (similar rate to crane hire in the UK).

The point I was really making is that from his photos and his description of the failed sealant/fairing it seems clear that the boat has serious issues and a boat like that which has been left for years unused is probably not a good project for a beginner. The keel bolts do not seem to be conventional as they seem to have pockets in the keel for some sort of locking pin rather than being studs or bolts tapped into the casting.

 

[Sea Change]

Well he's already bought the boat so I don't think he needs an ''I wouldn't be starting from here" approach

 

[Tranona]

I know, but it is never too late to re-assess the decision.

 

[trumes]

Well, I hope you have very deep pockets and nothing else to do with your time as this type of project will test you! Seriously an experienced person would not touch this sort of thing with a barge pole even if given the boat. That is why yards around the world including where your boat is are full of abandoned dreams. They end up like this through neglect and successive owners being overwhelmed by the amount of work and money required to keep them running.

As you have already discovered Greece is now an awful place to get work done because the demand exceeds supply and they can charge what they want. Very different from 20+ years ago when I had my boat there. If you think a crane to lift the mast out is expensive you wait until you try and organise lifting the boat off the keel and then putting it back on again. Never mind the heavy tackle needed to safely handle three tonnes of unwieldy cast iron.

You will have difficulty finding anybody who has direct experience of removing the keel on a Sun Fizz simply because nobody in their right mind would consider doing it. It might well have been done 30 or 40 years ago when these boats were newer, desirable and worth spending money on - and probably an insurance job. Now old worn out boats like this are worthless.

Sorry to sound harsh, but just trying to save you endless grief and shed loads of money. Have you priced up your new running rigging yet? And are you going to replace the standing rigging? Does that furler work? Just bringing the rigging up to standard is £8-10K. And so it goes on with a boat that even in usable condition is not worth much more than £30k.

Here’s a polished and friendly version of your post:

---

Hi Tranona,

Well, I'm in it now and could really use your help as I move forward! From your previous posts, it’s clear you know what you’re talking about.

I appreciate your words of caution, and I’m sure they’ll be helpful to anyone else thinking of taking on a project like this. As for me, I’m already too deep in to turn back now, but I’m determined to make it through and bring this boat back to life on a shoestring budget. I’m not doing this to make a profit; I just want to go sailing, and I’m hopeful that with the support from you and this forum, it will help me on my journey.

Thanks again for your advice, and I look forward to learning from you and others as I go!

 

[trumes]

Well he's already bought the boat so I don't think he needs an ''I wouldn't be starting from here" approach

100%

 

[trumes]

I know it is possible, but if you look at his other threads he is complaining about the high costs in Preveza and is not even prepared to pay the 300 euros an hour for a crane to unstep the mast (similar rate to crane hire in the UK).

The point I was really making is that from his photos and his description of the failed sealant/fairing it seems clear that the boat has serious issues and a boat like that which has been left for years unused is probably not a good project for a beginner. The keel bolts do not seem to be conventional as they seem to have pockets in the keel for some sort of locking pin rather than being studs or bolts tapped into the casting.

I know it is possible, but if you look at his other threads he is complaining about the high costs in Preveza and is not even prepared to pay the 300 euros an hour for a crane to unstep the mast (similar rate to crane hire in the UK).

The point I was really making is that from his photos and his description of the failed sealant/fairing it seems clear that the boat has serious issues and a boat like that which has been left for years unused is probably not a good project for a beginner. The keel bolts do not seem to be conventional as they seem to have pockets in the keel for some sort of locking pin rather than being studs or bolts tapped into the casting.

This isn’t about crane hire; the cost is solely for the MEWP hire. I’m not complaining either, just sharing the information

 

[trumes]

I know it is possible, but if you look at his other threads he is complaining about the high costs in Preveza and is not even prepared to pay the 300 euros an hour for a crane to unstep the mast (similar rate to crane hire in the UK).

The point I was really making is that from his photos and his description of the failed sealant/fairing it seems clear that the boat has serious issues and a boat like that which has been left for years unused is probably not a good project for a beginner. The keel bolts do not seem to be conventional as they seem to have pockets in the keel for some sort of locking pin rather than being studs or bolts tapped into the casting.

What makes you say this is unconventional and has a locking pin? I believe it is a stud, threaded through the keel, with a bolt on top. I’ve already removed the bolt

 

[Tranona]

What makes you say this is unconventional and has a locking pin? I believe it is a stud, threaded through the keel, with a bolt on top. I’ve already removed the bolt

See post#11 above. It seems the studs may be captive in the keel casting.

I think you mean a nut on the top of the stud. If so that is the easy bit. It is separating the hull from the keel when you have removed all the nuts that is challenging. Difficult enough when the keel is flush with the bottom of the hull where you can get something like wedges between the two to break the seal, but if, as other posters have suggested it is in a recess in the hull moulding you will have to remove all the sealant around the sides and hope that gravity breaks the seal at the face.

I know you have bought the boat, but not sure you have grasped the enormity of the task ahead. It is a truism that boat projects cost twice as much and take twice as long as your most pessimistic estimate. A boat like yours would cost between £400-500k new and costs of replacement parts and skilled labour are related to that figure, not the current value of a tip top example which is about 10% of that. You don't say what else needs doing, but just a light refresh with new rigging and normal replacement items on old neglected boats like canvas work, sails, batteries is likely to be £10-15k. In my experience every system you start work on tends to show up a new problem you did not expect, like your boom end fitting. Looks simple until you discover no new parts available and if you can't get it repaired it is new boom time.

However back to the keel. You don't say what the keel/hull joint looks like other than the "fairing" has eroded (post#17). Do you have a photo? If the keel is in a recess then before you go any further remove all the old sealant clean it out and apply new sealant. This may stop the leaks. As I explained earlier the danger is that water gets at the studs around the interface between the hull and keel then corrodes the studs. This is a very long process and may never result in failure and while you might get some weeping they won't fail. What was the condition of the studs when you removed the nuts? Corrosion as in your photo can come from water in the bilge rather than coming in from outside. Is there any evidence of rust staining on the exposed threads of the studs?

Removing keels is really a last resort and incompatible with a shoestring budget. Consider replacing the nuts with new ones with plates underneath bedded in sealant and replace the sealant around the external keel joint. This will almost certainly stop any water entering the boat although it might not of course stop ongoing corrosion of the studs. However the studs are way over-engineered and the keel is not going to come off. The very worst that can happen is the new sealant around the keel may not last long, but if you do a good job cleaning it out and use a good sealant it could well last several years.

Hope you find this helpful

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

I know that later Jeanneaus used J bolts glassed into the hull. You might find that it doesn't come out, and the correct way is the remove the nut, drop the keel and grind out the J bolt.

 

[KevinV]

@Tranona ,just reading along out curiosity, am I right in thinking that the keel bolts, as described in #11 are "gallaried", like in this picture of a Swan keel?


I can't imagine going to those lengths without trying a fresh bead of sealant around the joint first.

 

[Tranona]

That is what is suggested in post#11 although I have not personally seen one.

You are right, try anything rather than removing the keel. That post suggests removing them and replacing through the galleries is straightforward as they seem to be fairly short going just through a flange at the top of the keel and the hull. More detailed investigation required.