Stupid - hit breakwater stones ...
- Thread starter Refueler
- Start date
Refueler
Well-known member
feet !!
Of course mm ..... battens easily got at local DIY shop ... I may go up in size - depends on whats available and what GRP guy and I agree.
C08
Well-known member
Very pleased you are managing to sort it out
Wansworth
Well-known member
Refitting an Albin Vega Lealea has additional info on total interior makeover
Refueler
Well-known member
On of the areas we were confused about - why is keel able to be moved by hand .... today we found out why.
As some know - the Searider / Sunrider in bilge keel form, there was a choice of BK or Fin ... using same hull. The BK versions were designed to have FW in one keel ... Diesel in the other.
I started the Searider Owners Group years ago ....sadly no mopre as Yahoo Groups closed down. One of the topics was where people chose not to use the keels and like my SR25 - have 'proper' tanks installed. The BK tanks then sealed off with GRP over.
No-one could actually state how far down the keel the tank was sited etc. We only knew they were there.
Here we see the reality :
The tank actually literally butts the hull. As you can see if you look carefully - the moulding has cracked all way through keel to the tank and up into the hull strata. Tomorrow we will place 'jacks' under the keel and then grind back to find the extent of that crack.
There is also what appears a lesser crack at front hull joint ... that will be ground out as well ...
The structure we are starting to reveal - gives us part of the why keel is not rock solid as the port one now.
The concern of course is that if the crack and structural damage extends too far - it would need a serious Marine GRP person to complete the repairs.
Before people jump on the band wagon of when to stop and cut losses on this >>>>
1. Unlike most reading this thread - I have not paid out any money since 2007 for marina, mooring, storage fees.
2. Unlike most reading this thread - the maintenance costs in all the years I have had her have been minimal as she is overspec'd on halyards, stays, etc.
3. Many years of ownership and she has never let me down ... now is the time for me to repay her for all that service.
Crazy maybe ... but even though I have the 38ft'r now for serious stuff - Superanne is part of the family.
As some know - the Searider / Sunrider in bilge keel form, there was a choice of BK or Fin ... using same hull. The BK versions were designed to have FW in one keel ... Diesel in the other.
I started the Searider Owners Group years ago ....sadly no mopre as Yahoo Groups closed down. One of the topics was where people chose not to use the keels and like my SR25 - have 'proper' tanks installed. The BK tanks then sealed off with GRP over.
No-one could actually state how far down the keel the tank was sited etc. We only knew they were there.
Here we see the reality :
The tank actually literally butts the hull. As you can see if you look carefully - the moulding has cracked all way through keel to the tank and up into the hull strata. Tomorrow we will place 'jacks' under the keel and then grind back to find the extent of that crack.
There is also what appears a lesser crack at front hull joint ... that will be ground out as well ...
The structure we are starting to reveal - gives us part of the why keel is not rock solid as the port one now.
The concern of course is that if the crack and structural damage extends too far - it would need a serious Marine GRP person to complete the repairs.
Before people jump on the band wagon of when to stop and cut losses on this >>>>
1. Unlike most reading this thread - I have not paid out any money since 2007 for marina, mooring, storage fees.
2. Unlike most reading this thread - the maintenance costs in all the years I have had her have been minimal as she is overspec'd on halyards, stays, etc.
3. Many years of ownership and she has never let me down ... now is the time for me to repay her for all that service.
Crazy maybe ... but even though I have the 38ft'r now for serious stuff - Superanne is part of the family.
Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
Good for you. Only you know what she means to you, so crack on. 
Supertramp
Well-known member
Completely with you on the worth and reason for repairing. Our worlds are too full of reasons to give up and throw away good solid old cars, boats etc. Nothing compares with a boat you have invested your time and effort in. Great pictures and account - hope you stop discovering more problems soon.
Beelzebub
Well-known member
I have a 44 year old Fireball dinghy that I am renovating. I've spent much more than what it's worth but that's not the point. It gives me pleasure and the satisfaction of being able to sail in a mint-condition boat will be wonderful.
Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
Are your knees up to it?
Beelzebub
Well-known member
I hope so! I hit 70 next year but I remember French 505 supremo Marcel Buffet sailed his boat into his eighties.
I had the pleasure of meeting him once at a Fireball/505 open meeting in Saint Suliac, Brittany, many years ago. A true gentleman.
Refueler
Well-known member
Thanks to all who support.
I have asked Marine GRP guy to assess ... waiting answer of when he can visit ...
My guy and I decided we need a 3rd opinion .....
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
It was sad to read of your troubles and the video looked bad. I too hit a rock, a well known one, that I was fully aware of, my lack of attention and over reliance on familiarity with an area.
Anyway, your investigation reminds me of the repair experience I went through. I had mine repaired by a professional and the more that was cut back, the more damage was found. Old repairs, poor quality repairs, the keel had also been faired off centre (encapsulated keel). Anyway, after much grinding and removal of all old repairs the keel was fully returned to specification as good as new. It cost a bit more but I am very happy with the results. Also glad that all the old, poor repairs have been rectified.
Good luck going forward with your fixes.
By the way, on another boat, same cause as you, high, high spring tide, cut a corner keeping usual distance off shore, but was too close based on depth, run aground hard and dented a lead keel. Again relying on familiarity rather than due diligence on the pilotage. No further damage was observed post incident survey, just the lead needing to be reshaped.
Anyway, your investigation reminds me of the repair experience I went through. I had mine repaired by a professional and the more that was cut back, the more damage was found. Old repairs, poor quality repairs, the keel had also been faired off centre (encapsulated keel). Anyway, after much grinding and removal of all old repairs the keel was fully returned to specification as good as new. It cost a bit more but I am very happy with the results. Also glad that all the old, poor repairs have been rectified.
Good luck going forward with your fixes.
By the way, on another boat, same cause as you, high, high spring tide, cut a corner keeping usual distance off shore, but was too close based on depth, run aground hard and dented a lead keel. Again relying on familiarity rather than due diligence on the pilotage. No further damage was observed post incident survey, just the lead needing to be reshaped.
Refueler
Well-known member
The keel has been supported on jacks - but now a wooden frame made - so we can cut / grind / do whatever and keel stays aligned.
Called in another Boat Repair guy - retired guy who I've known for years ... usually he wants to sit and relax ... but agreed to come have a look.
He was intrigued by the idea of tank space in the keel - which l;ed him to suggest using that to strengthen keel to hull ....
Basically cut out top of keel inside hull ... then resin wide strips to hull and then down into the keel space, Once done - re-glass over the keel top sealing it back up. His idea being use the keel space to advantage.
I can see his point and now we are devising a compromise of his .. our ... and other guys ideas ....
Called in another Boat Repair guy - retired guy who I've known for years ... usually he wants to sit and relax ... but agreed to come have a look.
He was intrigued by the idea of tank space in the keel - which l;ed him to suggest using that to strengthen keel to hull ....
Basically cut out top of keel inside hull ... then resin wide strips to hull and then down into the keel space, Once done - re-glass over the keel top sealing it back up. His idea being use the keel space to advantage.
I can see his point and now we are devising a compromise of his .. our ... and other guys ideas ....
Attachments
justanothersailboat
Active member
Thanks for sharing the progress update, looks like you're getting to a really good solution. Great to see the boat getting the repair she deserves.
Refueler
Well-known member
OK .... my guy has made cut-out from inside cabin into the keel tank space ...
Open a hole to see where edges are ...
Now open up one section (we will only open up sections that are clear of bulkheads - so support remains ..
Camera down into the keel tank looking fwd ..
Looking aft ..
Yes that's about 10cms of water in there ... which we pumped out.
BUT the space you see is actually only a part - as there are partition bulkheads across the tank space ..... which we will not cut or touch in any form. It appears that the length of keel is divided into three compartments.
Open a hole to see where edges are ...
Now open up one section (we will only open up sections that are clear of bulkheads - so support remains ..
Camera down into the keel tank looking fwd ..
Looking aft ..
Yes that's about 10cms of water in there ... which we pumped out.
BUT the space you see is actually only a part - as there are partition bulkheads across the tank space ..... which we will not cut or touch in any form. It appears that the length of keel is divided into three compartments.
Refueler
Well-known member
What we did not expect - the GRP sealing of the keel top was actually quite thin ...
Refueler
Well-known member
OK ... been a bit quiet on this thread from me ...
Its been quite a discussion matter last days as we peel back plywood structures / open up keel top / brace keel externally to keep it aligned ...
Here's a quickie video :
OK ... details.
The vertical cupboard partitions which also add support to hull sides have all rotted around that keel area where they bond to the hull. This is no surprise - given the boat was built in early - mid 70's.
She has had her 'flooded' incident and that could not have been good about 20yrs ago. Cockpit drains were blocked while ashore in Hayling Island ... rain water collected and seeped via shaft tunnel through to main cabin.
Anyway ... having stripped out ply structures - more to remove still ... we can see the crack in the hull to keel joint at rear of stbd BK.
Here we see one of the lateral supports for keel sides ... part of the tank config. We aim to add further similar where cupboard bulkheads are replaced .. originals just sat across the keel top where GRP top sealed. But out intention is to have the plywood extend deeper before sealing up.
Here's #3 partition completely shot along that hull joint ...
Luckily the main cabin dividing bulkhead is good (left in picture) .... if it wasn't - it would mean a complete strip out of the main cabin area ... it just looks bad - sanding back ... wood sealer to stop any rot and she will be good...
Obviously we are now looking at removing cooker as the partition bulkhead ahead of it needs to be replaced ... here's guys 'pencilled' in replacements .... UGH !!
Here's the new longitudinal 'face' before varnishing ....
All original ply was 10mm ... we plan to replace structural with 12mm ... and less stressed with 9mm. (10mm is not available here). All ply will be well soaked in 'decking / patio' sealer stain - then varnished. Burgess is not sold here !!
Its been quite a discussion matter last days as we peel back plywood structures / open up keel top / brace keel externally to keep it aligned ...
Here's a quickie video :
OK ... details.
The vertical cupboard partitions which also add support to hull sides have all rotted around that keel area where they bond to the hull. This is no surprise - given the boat was built in early - mid 70's.
She has had her 'flooded' incident and that could not have been good about 20yrs ago. Cockpit drains were blocked while ashore in Hayling Island ... rain water collected and seeped via shaft tunnel through to main cabin.
Anyway ... having stripped out ply structures - more to remove still ... we can see the crack in the hull to keel joint at rear of stbd BK.
Here we see one of the lateral supports for keel sides ... part of the tank config. We aim to add further similar where cupboard bulkheads are replaced .. originals just sat across the keel top where GRP top sealed. But out intention is to have the plywood extend deeper before sealing up.
Here's #3 partition completely shot along that hull joint ...
Luckily the main cabin dividing bulkhead is good (left in picture) .... if it wasn't - it would mean a complete strip out of the main cabin area ... it just looks bad - sanding back ... wood sealer to stop any rot and she will be good...
Obviously we are now looking at removing cooker as the partition bulkhead ahead of it needs to be replaced ... here's guys 'pencilled' in replacements .... UGH !!
Here's the new longitudinal 'face' before varnishing ....
All original ply was 10mm ... we plan to replace structural with 12mm ... and less stressed with 9mm. (10mm is not available here). All ply will be well soaked in 'decking / patio' sealer stain - then varnished. Burgess is not sold here !!
Refueler
Well-known member
I hope my misfortune - but the work we are doing to remedy can help others who may need to do similar.
It really is a detective job and as we peel back - we have to revise planned repairs.
Yard has advised us that because originally it was only a short period to repair ... position of boat is now not convenient ... she will have to be moved to a more permanent spot instead of slap bang in middle of yard !!
This means we need to grind out / fill and strengthen exterior keel joint so we can remove the supporting woodwork frames. Weather is reasonable as well at this time ...
It really is a detective job and as we peel back - we have to revise planned repairs.
Yard has advised us that because originally it was only a short period to repair ... position of boat is now not convenient ... she will have to be moved to a more permanent spot instead of slap bang in middle of yard !!
This means we need to grind out / fill and strengthen exterior keel joint so we can remove the supporting woodwork frames. Weather is reasonable as well at this time ...
Restoration man
Active member
Are you using epoxy to do the repair? , I know some love it and some don’t but from my research and seeing from previous failed repairs attempted on my my boat by previous owners , epoxy is the only way to go as it has a far better secondary bond than polyester
Refueler
Well-known member
Its interesting subject ....
It depends on how you use it and where ... also the state of the surface you are binding to.
Polyester has a tendency to create a thin layer that resists later Polyester bonding to it. Its always advisable to layer while still curing - so the resins 'grab'. But if the surface has already reached cured - then it takes work to get it to bond to next Polyester layer ... the old way was to use Acetone to soften up the surface ... abrade ... so next layer had mechanical bond more than chemical.
Epoxy is better as its more tolerant - BUT that oxy layer that Polyester has can also make Epoxy fail if surface not treated similarly to create that 'grab' factor.
Some may remember the early days of Osmosis treatment ... I will not name them - but some well known yards used Polyester resin to recoat a blasted hull. My Snapdragon 23 had been treated that way by previous owner .... by time I bought her - the 'onion skin effect' was well developed ....
Ground back ... Epoxy Gelshield and she was good to go.
The repairs here will have test areas done ..... to see which takes best given that we are dealing with a 1973 hull.