Stupid - hit breakwater stones ...

[Refueler]

OK ... next day .... water seeping out from bonded joint to hull halfway along stbd keel on the inside.

Will need to wait few days for seepage to stop ....

But it may mean grinding back - possibly cutting deep to rebond. As said before - there are no keel bolts ... this is not a Centaur !

Will also need to re-assess inside cabin under lockers to verify 'floor' over that keel.

Port keel has no signs of stress at all ....

Generally we find similar to before cleaning .. stressed stbd keel to hull ..... crushed area near foot.

 

[Tranona]

I assume as the keels are splayed they are separate mouldings inserted from inside then bonded to the hull internally before filling with ballast and glassed over. The outside joint in the photo glassed and faired into the hull? Grinding out back to the ballast (if there is any at the top of the keel) seems a good idea.

 

[Refueler]

I assume as the keels are splayed they are separate mouldings inserted from inside then bonded to the hull internally before filling with ballast and glassed over. The outside joint in the photo glassed and faired into the hull? Grinding out back to the ballast (if there is any at the top of the keel) seems a good idea.

We used to have access to one of the guys in Poole who built these boats .... but some years ago lost contact with him. The Owners Group site was closed when Yahoo Groups shut up shop ... so I've lost contact with other owners as well.

The same hull had provision for fin or bilge keels. When you get under mine - you can see the fin seat set into the hull creating a shallow pocket where fin would be mated ... resined and I have reason to believe may have had bolts.
But the BK version has no bolts and is a bonded affair. Because the actual keel head area inside the hull is behind structures - we are going to have to take care in how we access ... those structures are bonded to the hull ....
Grind back to ballast ? The keels are actually hollow as they originally were diesel and water tanks respectively. The concrete ballast surrounds partly - but mainly at bottom of keels.

I have to admit that I am not so happy to see the water seeping out there ... it would have been much easier if it had just been the crushed area and ingress through keel tankage space.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, difficult to know what is inside the keels. I built a Seawych 19 from a kit. The keels were part of the hull moulding so were vertical. The ballast was punchings in resin. I had to tip the hull forward so the bow touched the ground as the ballast had to be in the lower front part of each keel. Once the resin set the hull was levelled and the void in the keels was filled with expanding foam, then glassed over. The internal moulding was then dropped in and glassed in before glassing in the bulkheads and dropping on the deck (with loads of M8 bolts to hold it all together. Did I really do all this in my front garden to save a couple of grand? - yes, that is what one did in the 70s to get a decent boat rather than the rotting old wood things you could buy for the same money as the kit! Great introduction to boating and had a few years of fun before buying Tranona a (not rotten) wooden boat that I kept for 30 years.

Another world and taught me a lot about boat building at that stage in its development. I looked at all sorts of kits at the time and remember some others with splayed bilge keels (to improve performance) and they were built as I described,

Pretty sure when you grind out that junction between the keel moulding and the hull you will get a good idea what is inside and whether it is OK to just glass over from the outside.

 

[VicS]

Yes, difficult to know what is inside the keels. I built a Seawych 19 from a kit. The keels were part of the hull moulding so were vertical. The ballast was punchings in resin. I had to tip the hull forward so the bow touched the ground as the ballast had to be in the lower front part of each keel. Once the resin set the hull was levelled and the void in the keels was filled with expanding foam, then glassed over. The internal moulding was then dropped in and glassed in before glassing in the bulkheads and dropping on the deck (with loads of M8 bolts to hold it all together. Did I really do all this in my front garden to save a couple of grand? - yes, that is what one did in the 70s to get a decent boat rather than the rotting old wood things you could buy for the same money as the kit! Great introduction to boating and had a few years of fun before buying Tranona a (not rotten) wooden boat that I kept for 30 years.

Another world and taught me a lot about boat building at that stage in its development. I looked at all sorts of kits at the time and remember some others with splayed bilge keels (to improve performance) and they were built as I described,

Pretty sure when you grind out that junction between the keel moulding and the hull you will get a good idea what is inside and whether it is OK to just glass over from the outside.

What happens if water gets in ( It was repaired! )

 

[ridgy]

I was on a Jeanneau 40 that hit a rock doing about 3 to 4 knots. No water ingress to the cabin but when next lifted significant damage was found requiring 30k of insurers cash to sort out.

 

[Tranona]

What happens if water gets in ( It was repaired! )
View attachment 160260

View attachment 160261

Similar to what happened to my Seawych long after I sold it. Left on a drying mooring and the shoe on the bottom wore away letting water in. The owner cut out all the ballast, repaired the keel moulding and reballasted. Fortunately for him I saw the boat in his front garden and was able to give him the original instructions on ballasting.

 

[Refueler]

GRP guy and inspected further ... water still seeping out of keel joint.

When I had all the sprayhood / mainsail cover / dodgers replaced - next job was to start replacing plywood cabin construction that basically has been there for 50 yrs .... suffered water ... bring her back up.
This incident of course has put a different slant to affairs ....

BUT the main area of woodwork that required replacement is dead on where guy needs to work. This means that she will get her new 'furniture' ...

Need to be careful how dismantling of course to be used as template.

Getting head inside the cupboards ... we find signs of stress / flex .... the thin screed coating applied to the GRP over the keel top has chipped in places where hull flexed .. two ply shelves that were basically rotten had failed ....

Guy is now considering the plan of attack ....

 

[Ribtecer]

Sorry to be asking this, as I understand she is a family friend, but is it worth it? Would it not just be better to cut your losses?

All good things come to an end and all that.

 

[Refueler]

Sorry to be asking this, as I understand she is a family friend, but is it worth it? Would it not just be better to cut your losses?

All good things come to an end and all that.

Fair comment .... for most in their circumstance - I can understand. But Superanne will be placed upriver of the bridges to provide many years of pleasure ... less strain on her etc.
In fact given the very slow ingress of water - the auto pump would keep her in service .. but I could not accept that. Repairs will be made

I have the 38 for serious stuff ...

 

[Daydream believer]

Sorry to be asking this, as I understand she is a family friend, but is it worth it? Would it not just be better to cut your losses?

All good things come to an end and all that.

If the OP decides to take that path, I know an excellent broker. Can shift most boats in a couple of days. Not sure if I am allowed to give their name, but I will take a chance---
Andrews Skip Ltd

 

[Refueler]

If the OP decides to take that path, I know an excellent broker. Can shift most boats in a couple of days. Not sure if I am allowed to give their name, but I will take a chance---
Andrews Skip Ltd

I understand its in jest ... but I respectfully ask that such not be posted ?

This thread is a serious matter for me ... and I am hoping that anyone who has the misfortune to have to work on their keel similarly can possibly gain some info or help from it.

 

[Daydream believer]

I understand its in jest ... but I respectfully ask that such not be posted ?

This thread is a serious matter for me ... and I am hoping that anyone who has the misfortune to have to work on their keel similarly can possibly gain some info or help from it.

Of course it was in jest. One would have though a bit of fun now & then would not go amiss.
Difficult situation or not.
However, there is something deaper in this. Boats may be much loved by their owners, but there comes a time when one has to say " Is it really worth the trouble & effort"? Will it actually produce something that is going to benefit anyone, or is it just going to prolong the agony & end up a wreck anyway?
I believe that you have just bought another yacht. Would it not be better to direct your enegies to keeping that in tip top condition & enjoy the pride of ownership?
But of course, I do not have the access to your inner plans & I do not know how you feel about this. My comments are not meant to cause concern. Just a typical comment from a typical owner looking in from the outside. No offence intended so I hope none is taken

 

[Refueler]

Today was 'grinding day' .... and as we ground back into that keel joint - the stress crack could be found to run both sides and full length of keel. The crushed frone lower edge was ground back till the concrete ballast and solid GRP.

We (GRP guy and I) decided that no choice but to remove galley longitudinal structure - something that was on the later renovation list anyway ...

What appeared to be varnished over screw heads turned out to be copper nails holding the structure together. So much for screwdriver and remove ... And of course fuel lines pass through holes - not slots .... so in the end out came the 'pruning saw' ......

Here's the interesting bit.

This galley structure sits longitudinally bonded to hull and then copper nailed to partial frames and knees to create the lockers / galley / cooker slots etc. It provides more than just a 'furniture face' .... once removed - grabbing bottom of keel - we could actually flex it a mm or so side to side ... watching inside the cabin - the hull bottom could be seen to flex with the keel ... this shows that the keel to hull is reasonably secure.
The keel head area of inner hull will be ground back to a) check integrity of laminate, b) to give better key to 'fresh face' grp.

So far we are adding to the repair list !

One vertical frame in the galley is rotted in its bottom section. This to be cut out and new section scarfed in and a doubling ply plate applied.
Keel head area will have extra GRP / matt applied in transverse strips to spread load. The ground out areas filled with matt and resin of course.
New galley longitudinal will be added after vertical is doubled and the keel head and surrounding area have been glassed.
The floor transverse frames will have extra doubling to stiffen floor.
These will all be glassed over to add structural rigidity.... but only after boat is refloated - as the central hull is actually deflected by a few mm - evident by the slight gap under midships transverse floor beam.... boat is sitting on its central keelson and not on her keels / skeg.

Our opinion is that the hull has been stressed and may be flexing slightly more than normal. But we cannot find any structural problem. In her present state with the galley longitudinal removed and keel head area to be ground back - she cannot stand on her keels. We risk further deflection to that stbd keel area.
Once new galley longitudinal fitted, glassing completed - its expected that she should be returned to working order ... the test of course would be to lift and then carefully observe being lowered onto keels. This is where the plumb bob does its job ... Hang it over side with point level with keel bottom ... as keel touches ground - bob will also ... as weight comes on - if she flexes - the plumb bob shows it immediately.

Next instalment when more to report ...

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Great write up and good to hear that you have the energy and commitment to fix her up.

 

[Refueler]

Of course it was in jest. One would have though a bit of fun now & then would not go amiss.
Difficult situation or not.
However, there is something deaper in this. Boats may be much loved by their owners, but there comes a time when one has to say " Is it really worth the trouble & effort"? Will it actually produce something that is going to benefit anyone, or is it just going to prolong the agony & end up a wreck anyway?
I believe that you have just bought another yacht. Would it not be better to direct your enegies to keeping that in tip top condition & enjoy the pride of ownership?
But of course, I do not have the access to your inner plans & I do not know how you feel about this. My comments are not meant to cause concern. Just a typical comment from a typical owner looking in from the outside. No offence intended so I hope none is taken

Of course there is sense in what you and another say in this ... but my decision is based on various factors, the main being .....

After repairs she will be permanently river based and not seagoing .. less stressed and no longer do I need to bother with the bridges.

The 'new boat' Conqubin 38CR is of course going to get its fair share of attention - in fact she already is ... GRP guy and discuss at stages of his work and I then leave him alone and get on with jobs on the 'new boat'. Presently sorting out the galley pumps (new pump ordered) ... replumbing FW to actually be FW instead of SW as yard had done. But please see other thread ...

 

[steveeasy]

Well done for cracking on with the work, most of what we all do regarding boats is utter madness , but it keeps us sane. Well relatively so. I’m sure all will be fine. A good test will be when you rest her on her keel. Oh keels!,
Sounds like you’ve got a good man working with you.

Steveeasy

 

[Refueler]

Finally found a supplier of BB phenolic glued grade plywood ...... Latvia is a huge exporter and processor of timber products - but the ply here is **** ! You cannot get WBP in local shops ... and Marine Ply is gold dust.

Riga Ply

Anyway - finally tracked down reasonable ply that I can treat top preserve. The original UK ply used was 10mm ... but I can only find 9mm and 12mm .... so bought sheet of both.

I have saved the old as a template - have to be careful though as a section had rotted and crumbled ... so the old plus the measurements I took should do the job.
Hopefully the 12mm will be OK - with the 9mm creating doublers to strengthen areas ...

 

[Refueler]

OK new face to stbd kitchenette cut and in process of staining and then varnishing.

That will go in once interior glassing reinforcement has been applied over keel head.

 

[Refueler]

That kitchenette ply will be backed up by 10 x 15 solid wood battens.

Took to boat today to test fit before applying final coats .... fits a treat ... with enough gap to hull to allow for extra GRP layup ....