Steelboats

[Gisborne]

Rather than trail through the pages of for and against! Are there any photos of Brents state of the art steel yachts, with close ups of his "Coded " welds?Just asking!

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-18#post-383407

 

[Brent Swain]

Someone mentioned "Floppy keels".
My first boat . designed by Francis Kinney was designed to Nevins and Herreschoff's rules, specifying 3.6 sq inches of keel bolt total cross section , for 5400 lbs of ballast.
My 36 has 4 times 8 ft of 3/16th plate holding the keels on, at 11,250 lbs tensile strength per linear inch; 2,280,000 total tensile strength, 24 sq inch total , plus transverse stiffening , 4 -3 inch by 3 inch by half inch thick angles per side, 285,000 lbs tensile strength each.
Does that sound "floppy " to you? One armchair critic on BD.net, claiming to be a naval architect, said they could fold inwards , completely disregarding the tensile strength of 8 ft of 3/16th plate , at 11,250 lbs per linear inch, attatching it to the tank top - hull joint, plus 4 transverse webs at 285,000 lbs tensile strength each. The others there believed him, such is the level of incredible stupidity on that site.
Can anyone here show me a plastic twin keeler with keels having that kind of strength in their hull attachment? After banning me ,they swooned over pictures of plastic boat keels with a foot long , couple of inches wide, attachment to a plastic hull.
Now that's floppy ?
BD.net has zero credibility ,in the real world of cruising boats ,of which no one there has any real experience.

 

[Brent Swain]

In many ways, GRP is time consuming and costly to build with. If steel and origami methods were so brilliant, and with so many advantages, commercial boat builders would be building them.

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The number of people who smoke , completely blows your theory of there being :"Wisdom in numbers!" Ditto the number of people who voted for Trump!
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Safety is a big selling factor for reluctant sailing partners. (remember the selling points about non-sinkability of some Sadler boats many years ago). If commercial builders thought that they could make steel boats cheaply using origami techniques and also sell them using the alleged safety benefits of the hull material then there would be commerically built origami constructed steel boats offered for sail in countless adverts around the world. The fact that there aren't means something is wrong with the argument.
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No John, it means that which is most promoted , and how few boats really go anywhere for long term voyaging, where the benefits of steel become self evident , along with how few steel boats are properly detailed and painted.
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Firstly, GRP is not half as weak as Brent makes out although I freely admit steel can be a good choice for long distant cruising in remote areas.
Secondly steel has rather more problems than Brent admits. Not only with corrosion but with all sorts of other factors.
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Yes John , corrosion problems with steel which is not properly detailed and painted. Not a serious problem, if done properly .
Plastic boats break up on lee shores in surf ,small steel ones don't. Gringo survived ,the Seavins boat sank quickly .
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Thirdly, origami really limits the shapes that you can produce. It's not the panacea that Brent harps on about but he refuses to admit that as well.
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Shapes which look good, and do the same passage times as most other shapes.
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The simple fact is that boat builders aren't stupid and they're not part of some conspiracy against steel boats. If Brent's steel boat designs were that good, then commercial boat builders would be building them and selling them.
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If smoking was not a good idea, no one would smoke, let alone the huge numbers who do? Ya sure John!
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Steel is an excellent material for some boats for some situations.

The only reason I keep answering and challenging in this thread is that I am deeply concerned that people who dream of giving up everything and sailing away into the sunset don't get suckered into believing all the stories that Brent tells about how easy it is and how building one of his boats is going to be a wonderful (and very cheap) experience that will lead to a lifetime of bliss on the high seas.

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Sleavins got suckered into believing the plastic evangelists! Where did that get them?

 

[NotBirdseye]

Someone mentioned "Floppy keels".
My first boat . designed by Francis Kinney was designed to Nevins and Herreschoff's rules, specifying 3.6 sq inches of keel bolt total cross section , for 5400 lbs of ballast.
My 36 has 4 times 8 ft of 3/16th plate holding the keels on, at 11,250 lbs tensile strength per linear inch; 2,280,000 total tensile strength, 24 sq inch total , plus transverse stiffening , 4 -3 inch by 3 inch by half inch thick angles per side, 285,000 lbs tensile strength each.
Does that sound "floppy " to you? One armchair critic on BD.net, claiming to be a naval architect, said they could fold outwards , completely disregarding the tensile strength of 8 ft of 3/16th plate , at 11,250 lbs per linear inch, attatching it to the tank top - hull joint, plus 4 transverse webs at 285,000 lbs tensile strength each. The others there believed him, such is the level of incredible stupidity on that site.
Can anyone here show me a plastic twin keeler with keels having that kind of strength in their hull attachment? After banning me ,they swooned over pictures of plastic boat keels with a foot long , couple of inches wide, attachment to a plastic hull.
Now that's floppy ?
BD.net has zero credibility ,in the real world of cruising boats ,of which no one there has any real experience.

I have a feeling I know why they banned you :|. Personal attacks aren't welcome on this forum either, not sure about YBW's stance on 'all x are y' comments though.

Has this tensile strength been confirmed by an independent testing facility? Mind posting up the results?

Further, I've looked into the cost of building a GRP boat vs building one of your steel boats... >.> GRP wins hands down. But of course there's a reason why the military tend to use steel rather than grp XD.

 

[Brent Swain]

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-18#post-383407

The suggestion being that you can tell the strength of as 6011 weld by looking at the slag on top of it ! Another frequent suggestion was that freshly cut plate edges were never ground, and one should grind all plate edges destined to be cut off, and become scrap. No wonder they take so many man hours at shop rates!
Someone posted a picture of the bow looking like it was misaligned ,, an optical illusion , but not showing the finished stem head matching perfectly, as was shown in the video it came from. Then someone accused me of forcing the plate edge to be shorter, with a 3/4 inch pipe clamp. Such "Wisdom!"
You can find the tensile strength of mild steel in many books and guides ,as well as online.

 

[Brent Swain]

I have a feeling I know why they banned you :|. Personal attacks aren't welcome on this forum either, not sure about YBW's stance on 'all x are y' comments though.

Has this tensile strength been confirmed by an independent testing facility? Mind posting up the results?

Further, I've looked into the cost of building a GRP boat vs building one of your steel boats... >.> GRP wins hands down.

A one of , custom built , including the cost of a mold built from scratch, and the many hours of fairing it at shop rates?Ask any builder if he can build you a hull and decks for $17K CDN.
Then there is the detailing. SS cleats cost around $2 to fabricate, your anchors made from left over hull material ,no bolts no bedding compound , under $2 a pound for all your stainless fittings , Including anchor winch ,windvane , heater etc etc, the list goes on.
No you are way off the mark with your numbers

 

[Brent Swain]

Perhaps Brent needs to be appraised of the above.

He obviously feels that it most certainly is a competition by his continual disparaging remarks about GRP boats and their 'Marina queen' owners.

That is really what I, and some others, are challenging.

We have agreed that for full time liveaboard cruising in out of the way places where self reliance is of paramount importance, steel is perfect as a boat building material.

Brent will not accept the fact that non steel boats also manage perfectly well in most cases. Or, if he does, he wont say so on here!

Ergo, the reason for this ongoing saga.

Agreed , the points I have been trying to make all along, while the fans of straw many arguments keep putting words in my mouth, so they will have something to argue against.

 

[Brent Swain]

I thought the Clipper boats were all grp or frp.

Anyway the point is that it's not a competition between steel and grp; each material has its advantages depending on the usage. I have heard many reports from cruising sailors of deck leaks in grp boats and I gather it can be quite distressing.

You don't need to be so defensive about grp, it will continue to be the default material for production yachts until something else will give the builders a better profit margin.

Right on ! Absolutely ! ZERO deck leaks from welded down gear. Read "Storm Passage" ,or the Sail magazine articles,
about a guy circumnavigating in the roaring 40 s in a Perry design ,soaking wet most of the way from deck leaks.

 

[Brent Swain]

I’d like to think that we are all grown up and can make sensible and reasoned choices. Brent’s target sales are to people who wish to drop out of society (and there’s nothing wrong in that) but this very cohort are also potentially going to be sold a false dream in which the potential problems of his designs and construction methods are brushed over. It’s irresponsible to allow his false claims and exaggerations to go unchallenged.

None of the"Potential " problems you mention have shown up in my over 40 years of steel boat building ,and designing, when they have followed my advice. Yours is a "Chicken Little, the sky is falling " type claim.

 

[Brent Swain]

To be fair, I'll sing the praises of a "production anything." This is where that experience comes into play, after finding a design and method that works well, with mere minor tweaks a manufacturer churns out hundreds of the same production (through the use of jigs, revised methodology and safety credentials) with a remarkably low failure ratio compared to the same number being churned out by home builders. A home built boat is a riskier proposition because they are 'unproven', they're often one time things for most.

As for the hull only being attached with a pop rivet here and there. Most businesses have to adhere to strict regulatory health and safety requirements, not least because if something goes wrong they can be sued to the eyeballs for negligence. However times have significantly changed since 1978 (which is practically victorian times in legal terms).

It's all well and good criticizing others on their safety records (and I always encourage that as it makes safety go up a notch)... what about your own designs? Have they been safety checked by an independent and reputable such company? More to the point... do steel boats have a greater or lesser safety rating than GRP/Wooden boats?

I mean, I can think of at least *one* steel boat that didn't fare so well when it was tickled by an iceberg.

My designs have survived 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf on a Baja lee shore, pounding across 300 yard s of Fijian coral , a single season passage thru the NW passage, over 350,000 miles of ocean cruising
, a collision with a freighter in Gibralter, blowing ashore in a hurricane in the Indian Ocean ,all with no serious damage. And you say I should pay an armchair expert, to determine if it is weaker than the plastic boats he approves, which break up quickly in any of those conditions?
Ya sure! You give him YOUR money!
Yes , some plastic boats are well made ,but very few. A friend bought one a Crealock 37 ,built like a tank. After 5 years cruising in her , she visited the shop and was horrified at how much lighter they were making things.She asked about safety, and the rely was 'We don't care about that ,only the bottom line. Years in business means years of determining how to cut costs, and experience in how little they can get away with
Amazons had a lifetime guarantee on the paint job ,the life of the company ,not the life if the boat. Bankruptcy eliminates all legal liability. That is how they escaped a legitimate lawsuit.

 

[Brent Swain]

I’d like to think that we are all grown up and can make sensible and reasoned choices. Brent’s target sales are to people who wish to drop out of society (and there’s nothing wrong in that) but this very cohort are also potentially going to be sold a false dream in which the potential problems of his designs and construction methods are brushed over. It’s irresponsible to allow his false claims and exaggerations to go unchallenged.

A far higher percentage of my clients actually make it off the treadmill, most of them , than those buying stock plastic boats,aand getting their advice from those selling production gear and boats.

 

[Brent Swain]

You doubt wrong Brent.

And I’ve seen and sailed some dogs of home finished boats and some that were built with skill and care.

I am bemused by how you can’t see that your constant harping on about the poor quality of professional yacht design and manufacturers doesn’t reflect well on you.

Yes , some home built boats are dogs , and some are great. Some production plastic boats are dogs, and some sail great. Humans who build them are quite variable. Tell us something new!

 

[Brent Swain]

You can certainly build something that floats. You might build something that sails. An understanding of basic mechanics and materials might build you a boat but there's no guarantee at all that it will be a good one.

Whether it's got desirable characteristics and balance on the helm that is predictable and it's reliable as it heels with trim stability that you can rely on and has a good sailing performance on all points of sail etc. is another matter.

There's rather more to good yacht design than just building something that is yacht shaped. It's all about compromise and varying one characteristic always compromises another. I'd rather have a boat that was designed by someone who had an appreciation of what compromises were being made, and who had actually done some stability calculation and knew something about ballast ratio and displacement and all the other factors.

Good is far better determined by decades of experience in cruising in them , than by armchair predictions. How they sail, and have survived extreme conditions. rather than how they are predicted to sail, and survive. Feed back from those who have such experience in them , rather than speculation for those who have none.
Hull balance is simple. Calculate the Longitudinal centre of buoyancy ,when she is level. Then calculate the LCB when she is heeled 25 degrees. If when heeled , the LCB remains the same , or moves slightly forward ,the hull is balanced, and can have good directional stability. If it moves aft , she is poorly balanced, and will have little directional stability. Super lean bows and fat sterns are something to be avoided,if you want directional stability.
Harrison Butler figured that out in the 1930s , and some designers to this day haven't caught on.

 

[Gisborne]

.........
BD.net has zero credibility ,in the real world of cruising boats ,of which no one there has any real experience.

Reading through Boatdesign net half a dozen Professional engineers another group of Naval architects and various professional yacht designers boat builders and steel worjkers all revealed that you had almost no understanding of the failure modes of metal hulls. Virtually no understanding whatsoever of the technical process of yacht design, and that you not only completely misunderstood the process, but that you lied extensively about several things, including the derivation of stability for your designs.

The result was that BS Origami is apparently quite dead now, no ones building the boats anymore following the revelations made firstly on BD net. Everyone who was interested is building frameless Van de Staadts instead.

Even one of your own clients posted that he dumped an unfinished BS origami hull and built a VDS hull instead, he even gave you an earful on BD net and told you to man up and listen to the professionals that were offering to help you improve your design and deduce the correct stability curve. You want the link ?








So you were severely mauled by the pro's there. There were several other revelations too. So it's no wonder you try and do a BS job on BD net.

 

[Skylark]

........ My 36 has 4 times 8 ft of 3/16th plate holding the keels on, at 11,250 lbs tensile strength per linear inch; 2,280,000 total tensile strength, 24 sq inch total , plus transverse stiffening , 4 -3 inch by 3 inch by half inch thick angles per side, 285,000 lbs tensile strength each.

Brent’s knowledge of strength of materials is matched only by his ability to weld.

Is there any way that this thread can be taken to a Vet for euthanasia?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Brent’s knowledge of strength of materials is matched only by his ability to weld.

Is there any way that this thread can be taken to a Vet for euthanasia?

I think he’s successfully squeezing all the life out of it with every post he makes. It’s more or less dead thank goodness. I think we’ve been extremely generous in allowing it to survive this long.

 

[dom]

I think he’s successfully squeezing all the life out of it with every post he makes.

Very hard to disagree with that.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

yes,enough is enough

 

[Brent Swain]

I have a feeling I know why they banned you :|. Personal attacks aren't welcome on this forum either, not sure about YBW's stance on 'all x are y' comments though.
But of course there's a reason why the military tend to use steel rather than grp XD.

Personal attacks against me , have been more than welcomed here. One site banned me for "disagreeing with people." No one there was banned for disagreeing with me. All progress in any field requires disagreeing with someone. Without disagreement we would still be in the stone age.
But "Schadenfreude ", once they banned me ,and thus banned any innovative thinking outside the box ( ie. progress ) interest in that site died, and the site died. Darwinism took its natural course.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent’s knowledge of strength of materials is matched only by his ability to weld.

Is there any way that this thread can be taken to a Vet for euthanasia?

You suggestion being that the 'Approved "cross section for keel bolts, of 3.6 sq inches ,is stronger than 72 sq inches of steel ? Stronger than 4,320,000 lbs total tensile strength ?Doesn't say much for your understanding of strength of metals!
Oh I get it .The "approval"makes the metal far stronger.
Ya sure!
Jeeeeze!
On steel boats , in anything but a very short keel , the strength is such a massive overkill , that there is zero chance of a steel boat keel ever falling off, unlike plastic and wooden boats.
Friends on plastic boats are constantly worried about the state of their keel bolts.