Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

2/3rds of the way round the world? Last year BC was stretched all the way down to Chile. Then somebody let go one end.

Maybe you're more famous than you know. World famous even, in BC.

Perhaps they'll build a statue to you. Of course with all the local scrap steel used up for your signature designs, they'd have to build it in fibre-glass.

Check the BC charts for Hakai Pass to Higgens Pass. 811 islands in 35 miles . Totals up to a lot of coastline if you stretch it all out ,a tiny fraction of the BC coastal total.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A while ago I was mildly irritated by Brent’s single mindedness and his one dimensional answers. I’m getting to be relaxed about them now as I’m more and more confident that most anyone dreaming of adopting a cruising lifestyle will see through his arguments for what they are. In reality, they’re the occasional bit of inspiration or good idea mixed in with a lot of potentially dangerous nonsense.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Over 40 years of great passage times ,on all points of sail, steered with the simplest of wind vanes , over 350,000 miles of ocean cruising, including surviving serious groundings in big surf, for up to weeks at a time, pounding on both sand and coral, with zero serious structural damage, IS a far better guarantee that it IS a good one, than a charlatan armchair expert with zero such experience, scribbling on paper, for $175 an hour.

There is no safer boat to cruise in ,than one with that kind of track record ,over decades.

Change the record Brent. 350,000 miles is a drop in the ocean compared with many other boats.

The rest of your ‘supporting evidence’ has been discredited several times over.

 

[Brent Swain]

Someone here was singing the praise of "production boats, made in a commercial shop, with professional builders, as superior to back yard boats.
I have worked on some of them.,When I got back from Tahiti in 78, I worked on a Bayliner. The skipper had passed out drunk, and bounced off some cliffs. The hull was only attached to the deck with a pop rivet every three feet, nothing more. The rest of the boat was put together in a similar manner. No intelligent back yard builder would do anything so sleazy, risking his life and that of his crew, in the process . They remain in business to this day,
A friend is stripping and abandoning her Coronado 25. Plywood core decks, a great strength to the numbers crunching engineers, impressive numbers on stiffness, are totally rotted out .Like several others around here, she had to completely rebuild the "Professionally" done hull- deck joint. When the "Professional experts " wanted to attach interior, they simply drilled thru the hull and drove a screw thru, then puttied over the screw head on the outside, to hide it. They remained in business a long time, selling many such boats. The chain plates were bolted to the rotted out bulkheads , no backup plates of any kind. I have seen those pull out of new bulkhead on a Pacific 30.
The support for the deck stepped mast was grossly inadequate , buckling under sail.
There is another "Production, professionally built" Columbia in the bay, with a stanchion pulled completely out . No backup plate for the bases, only tiny washers, not much wider than the nuts.
"Production, professionally built "Catalinas and Cals have no backup plates of any kind under their cleats, or any other deck hardware. I doubt many "Professionally Built, production boats " do.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You doubt wrong Brent.

And I’ve seen and sailed some dogs of home finished boats and some that were built with skill and care.

I am bemused by how you can’t see that your constant harping on about the poor quality of professional yacht design and manufacturers doesn’t reflect well on you.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

You doubt wrong Brent.

And I’ve seen and sailed some dogs of home finished boats and some that were built with skill and care.

I am bemused by how you can’t see that your constant harping on about the poor quality of professional yacht design and manufacturers doesn’t reflect well on you.

I think you need to accept that people don't believe the same things as you. Why should you criticise anyone for believing in themselves and what they think ? We are all grown up and can make up our own minds without your intervention.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Someone here was singing the praise of "production boats, made in a commercial shop, with professional builders, as superior to back yard boats.
I have worked on some of them.,When I got back from Tahiti in 78, I worked on a Bayliner. The skipper had passed out drunk, and bounced off some cliffs. The hull was only attached to the deck with a pop rivet every three feet, nothing more. The rest of the boat was put together in a similar manner. No intelligent back yard builder would do anything so sleazy, risking his life and that of his crew, in the process . They remain in business to this day,
A friend is stripping and abandoning her Coronado 25. Plywood core decks, a great strength to the numbers crunching engineers, impressive numbers on stiffness, are totally rotted out .Like several others around here, she had to completely rebuild the "Professionally" done hull- deck joint. When the "Professional experts " wanted to attach interior, they simply drilled thru the hull and drove a screw thru, then puttied over the screw head on the outside, to hide it. They remained in business a long time, selling many such boats. The chain plates were bolted to the rotted out bulkheads , no backup plates of any kind. I have seen those pull out of new bulkhead on a Pacific 30.
The support for the deck stepped mast was grossly inadequate , buckling under sail.
There is another "Production, professionally built" Columbia in the bay, with a stanchion pulled completely out . No backup plate for the bases, only tiny washers, not much wider than the nuts.
"Production, professionally built "Catalinas and Cals have no backup plates of any kind under their cleats, or any other deck hardware. I doubt many "Professionally Built, production boats " do.

To be fair, I'll sing the praises of a "production anything." This is where that experience comes into play, after finding a design and method that works well, with mere minor tweaks a manufacturer churns out hundreds of the same production (through the use of jigs, revised methodology and safety credentials) with a remarkably low failure ratio compared to the same number being churned out by home builders. A home built boat is a riskier proposition because they are 'unproven', they're often one time things for most.

As for the hull only being attached with a pop rivet here and there. Most businesses have to adhere to strict regulatory health and safety requirements, not least because if something goes wrong they can be sued to the eyeballs for negligence. However times have significantly changed since 1978 (which is practically victorian times in legal terms).

It's all well and good criticizing others on their safety records (and I always encourage that as it makes safety go up a notch)... what about your own designs? Have they been safety checked by an independent and reputable such company? More to the point... do steel boats have a greater or lesser safety rating than GRP/Wooden boats?

I mean, I can think of at least *one* steel boat that didn't fare so well when it was tickled by an iceberg.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think you need to accept that people don't believe the same things as you. Why should you criticise anyone for believing in themselves and what they think ? We are all grown up and can make up our own minds without your intervention.

I’d like to think that we are all grown up and can make sensible and reasoned choices. Brent’s target sales are to people who wish to drop out of society (and there’s nothing wrong in that) but this very cohort are also potentially going to be sold a false dream in which the potential problems of his designs and construction methods are brushed over. It’s irresponsible to allow his false claims and exaggerations to go unchallenged.

 

[rotrax]

Well Brent, our British pensioner, in her 70's, has just become the oldest sailor to circumnavigate non stop. Well done Jean Socrates!

Completed yesterday early PM our time.

In, surprise surprise, what you would describe as a plastic deathtrap.

Her boat is a quality Scandanavian product, something you are obviously not familiar with as every GRP boat you have experirnce of is crap. I know it is - you keep telling us!

So, now you might admit that some GRP boats leave their Marina's from time to time and complete arduous voyages. Doing so is not the only preserve of tin boats.

See what I did there Brent-if you cant beat 'em join 'em!

You might also admit that some designers of GRP sailboats DO know what they are about and design boats that are fit for the purpose. They dont have soggy cored coachroofs and decks, poor mast support and weak hull/deck joints.

You appear only to have experience of old GRP clunkers, past their sell by and pretty much used up.

Because I, and I am pretty sure most others who have taken part in this thread, do not recognise YOUR experience of GRP boats as being the norm.

Of course there is the odd duff one, the few badly neglected and poorly maintained ones, but, on the whole, the GRP sailboats keep their looks and integrity far better with minimum maintenance than the average steel boat.

IMHO, of course - and from direct experience of currently owning both types.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Because I, and I am pretty sure most others who have taken part in this thread, do not recognise YOUR experience of GRP boats as being the norm.

This is the crux of the whole debate. Others have different experience from yours and you have not personally experienced the benefits of a steel boat, only the maintenance of an old one.

 

[TOKOLOSHI]

Rather than trail through the pages of for and against! Are there any photos of Brents state of the art steel yachts, with close ups of his "Coded " welds?
Just asking!

 

[rotrax]

This is the crux of the whole debate. Others have different experience from yours and you have not personally experienced the benefits of a steel boat, only the maintenance of an old one.

As I have not hit a whale, sunken container or a reef, no, I have not experienced the benifits of a steel boat. Apart from inherent strength, are there any others?

As I go through my sailing adventures I ensure that I am unlikely to hit a charted reef, rock or obstuction by basic navigation, seamanship and keeping watch. Sunken cotainers and whales are an intangible. After our previous life racing motorcycles, the risks, to First Mate and I, appear pretty small.

The benifit I have recieved from my Steel Hartly 32, built from corten steel in 1986, was the cost. Even in NZ, a sailing area ideal for steel boats, it could not be sold by the previous owner for even modest money.

I stole it really, but I was the only potential deal he had had in two seasons of trying to sell. The fact that we would not make a sandwich or a cup of coffee aboard for over two weeks - untill we had cleaned the interior and galley area and sanitized and disinfected it - might give a clue as to what we took on. It was disgusting.

I am now assured that the work we carried out earlier this year is still looking good, no rust streaks from the re-done windows and appatures.
We will have her hauled in early November, clean the bottom, check the anodes, clean the prop and poke the mussels out of the thru-hull intakes and paint the hull-where we have done local treatment it is a bit patchy.

Then, perhaps we can go sailing-Marlborough Sounds, here we come!

 

[GHA]

As I have not hit a whale, sunken container or a reef, no, I have not experienced the benifits of a steel boat. Apart from inherent strength, are there any others?

Yes, though probably not relevant for the majority. For long distance having a boat which doesn't leak is a biggie. Beth Leonard And Evans Starzinger went away from grp for their second boat.

B&E: Most people guess we chose metal for strength, as we planned to go to the high latitudes. But in fact we picked it because we could make the decks absolutely leak proof. Our experience with fiberglass decks was that after two or so ocean crossings the boat had worked enough that at least a few of the fasteners through the deck would start leaking. There are zero fastener holes through Hawk's deck. Everything is either welded on, or machine screwed to blind tapped plates that are welded on.

No more leaks no matter how much water is going across the decks on a brisk ocean passage, no more rebedding anything on the deck. Cuts maintenance down massively, any fittings bolded through the deck will cause rust. Though not many steel boats will actually be built with that in mind and it's a load of work afterwards. Fitting strong tie down points etc is another big help, simple stern or bow but not simple where there's sprayed foam. Stainless chain links cut in half work well. Strength isn't limited to hitting containers, can't think of many cruisers who have hit really big heavy things offshore, but a good few who have been hit at anchor, one on Cape Verde which meant a year refit instead of an afternoon with a paintbrush.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

As I have not hit a whale, sunken container or a reef, no, I have not experienced the benifits of a steel boat. Apart from inherent strength, are there any others?

Yes, there are many others but unless you go cruising long term you won't ever know what they are. That is of course unless you listen to the experience of others.

Just one example: met a chap a year or two ago who was having his grp boat lifted into a cradle. One of the pads was not aligned correctly and when the weight of the boat rested on it the result was a crack in the hull. The ensuing repairs and insurance claim took a month to complete and as he was living aboard this meant spending a month in rented accommodation, considerable cost and disruption to his plans etc.

 

[rotrax]

Yes, there are many others but unless you go cruising long term you won't ever know what they are. That is of course unless you listen to the experience of others.

Just one example: met a chap a year or two ago who was having his grp boat lifted into a cradle. One of the pads was not aligned correctly and when the weight of the boat rested on it the result was a crack in the hull. The ensuing repairs and insurance claim took a month to complete and as he was living aboard this meant spending a month in rented accommodation, considerable cost and disruption to his plans etc.

And, conversly, IIRC, one of the ex clipper steel RTW boats fell over in a West Country Dockyard and became a write off. We have had direct experience of four GRP yachts over the last 17 years.Two had no deck leakage problems at all, but were very well built Island Packet yachts. The previous two, a British Hunter and a GibSea had minor deck leaks, from stantion bases strained during minor collisions. Both were easily fixed. Unlike the leaking houdini hatch on the Hunter! That took a bit more effort.

Th Antipodean hatch on our steel Hartley also leaked badly, so not exlusive to GRP. Again, easily fixed with proper re-bedding and sealing.

I conceed the one piece deck and no bolt through fittings is as good as it is likely to get in regard to sealing against water ingress.

But, I fear, you must conceed that not all steel yachts are built to this excellent standard.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

And, conversly, IIRC, one of the ex clipper steel RTW boats fell over in a West Country Dockyard and became a write off. We have had direct experience of four GRP yachts over the last 17 years.Two had no deck leakage problems at all, but were very well built Island Packet yachts. The previous two, a British Hunter and a GibSea had minor deck leaks, from stantion bases strained during minor collisions. Both were easily fixed. Unlike the leaking houdini hatch on the Hunter! That took a bit more effort.

Th Antipodean hatch on our steel Hartley also leaked badly, so not exlusive to GRP. Again, easily fixed with proper re-bedding and sealing.

I conceed the one piece deck and no bolt through fittings is as good as it is likely to get in regard to sealing against water ingress.

But, I fear, you must conceed that not all steel yachts are built to this excellent standard.

I thought the Clipper boats were all grp or frp.

Anyway the point is that it's not a competition between steel and grp; each material has its advantages depending on the usage. I have heard many reports from cruising sailors of deck leaks in grp boats and I gather it can be quite distressing.

You don't need to be so defensive about grp, it will continue to be the default material for production yachts until something else will give the builders a better profit margin.

 

[rotrax]

Anyway the point is that it's not a competition between steel and grp; each material has its advantages depending on the usage.

Perhaps Brent needs to be appraised of the above.

He obviously feels that it most certainly is a competition by his continual disparaging remarks about GRP boats and their 'Marina queen' owners.

That is really what I, and some others, are challenging.

We have agreed that for full time liveaboard cruising in out of the way places where self reliance is of paramount importance, steel is perfect as a boat building material.

Brent will not accept the fact that non steel boats also manage perfectly well in most cases. Or, if he does, he wont say so on here!

Ergo, the reason for this ongoing saga.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You don't need to be so defensive about grp, it will continue to be the default material for production yachts until something else will give the builders a better profit margin.

In many ways, GRP is time consuming and costly to build with. If steel and origami methods were so brilliant, and with so many advantages, commercial boat builders would be building them.

Safety is a big selling factor for reluctant sailing partners. (remember the selling points about non-sinkability of some Sadler boats many years ago). If commercial builders thought that they could make steel boats cheaply using origami techniques and also sell them using the alleged safety benefits of the hull material then there would be commerically built origami constructed steel boats offered for sail in countless adverts around the world. The fact that there aren't means something is wrong with the argument.

Firstly, GRP is not half as weak as Brent makes out although I freely admit steel can be a good choice for long distant cruising in remote areas.
Secondly steel has rather more problems than Brent admits. Not only with corrosion but with all sorts of other factors.
Thirdly, origami really limits the shapes that you can produce. It's not the panacea that Brent harps on about but he refuses to admit that as well.

The simple fact is that boat builders aren't stupid and they're not part of some conspiracy against steel boats. If Brent's steel boat designs were that good, then commercial boat builders would be building them and selling them.

Steel is an excellent material for some boats for some situations.

The only reason I keep answering and challenging in this thread is that I am deeply concerned that people who dream of giving up everything and sailing away into the sunset don't get suckered into believing all the stories that Brent tells about how easy it is and how building one of his boats is going to be a wonderful (and very cheap) experience that will lead to a lifetime of bliss on the high seas.

 

[GHA]

You missed a bit........


badly designed and built (of which there are many) boats made in ....

..... steel has rather more problems than Brent admits. Not only with corrosion but with all sorts of other factors.

 

[davidlhill]

Secondly steel has rather more problems than Brent admits. Not only with corrosion but with all sorts of other factors.
.

Oops, I think you've re-lit the touchpaper.

I'll grab a coffee and settle down to enjoy the show