Steelboats

[john_morris_uk]

Yes, but building a modest, uncomplicated yacht is not rocket science. An understanding of basic mechanics, strength of materials, and being reasonably practical, helps.

You can certainly build something that floats. You might build something that sails. An understanding of basic mechanics and materials might build you a boat but there's no guarantee at all that it will be a good one.

Whether it's got desirable characteristics and balance on the helm that is predictable and it's reliable as it heels with trim stability that you can rely on and has a good sailing performance on all points of sail etc. is another matter.

There's rather more to good yacht design than just building something that is yacht shaped. It's all about compromise and varying one characteristic always compromises another. I'd rather have a boat that was designed by someone who had an appreciation of what compromises were being made, and who had actually done some stability calculation and knew something about ballast ratio and displacement and all the other factors.

 

[rotrax]

Yes, but building a modest, uncomplicated yacht is not rocket science. An understanding of basic mechanics, strength of materials, and being reasonably practical, helps.

Which is exactly why Brent's boats are OK.

But he constantly dogs off any other boatbuilders or designers.

I cant recall him having a good word to say about any other boats or designers.

It appears to me that Brent is clear that unless it is orIgami and built in steel it is NFG.

Which the more enlightened amongst us know is certainly not the case.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Which is exactly why Brent's boats are OK.

But he constantly dogs off any other boatbuilders or designers.

I cant recall him having a good word to say about any other boats or designers.

It appears to me that Brent is clear that unless it is orIgami and built in steel it is NFG.

Which the more enlightened amongst us know is certainly not the case.

NFG. ? Non Ferrous Garbage ?

 

[rotrax]

NFG. ? Non Ferrous Garbage ?

No 'kin good..........................

 

[Brent Swain]

You can certainly build something that floats. You might build something that sails. An understanding of basic mechanics and materials might build you a boat but there's no guarantee at all that it will be a good one.

Whether it's got desirable characteristics and balance on the helm that is predictable and it's reliable as it heels with trim stability that you can rely on and has a good sailing performance on all points of sail etc. is another matter.

There's rather more to good yacht design than just building something that is yacht shaped. It's all about compromise and varying one characteristic always compromises another. I'd rather have a boat that was designed by someone who had an appreciation of what compromises were being made, and who had actually done some stability calculation and knew something about ballast ratio and displacement and all the other factors.

Absolutely ! One cant have an appreciation of what compromises are being made , without hands on cruising experience in the type of boat one is designing. Not many designers have over 40 years of experience in any of their designs. Designers who's only experience is sitting at a drawing board, juggling numbers has no such appreciation, certainly nowhere near that of someone who has cruised mostly full time, for over 40 years, and who has put together over 3 dozen highly successful boats.
Harrison Butler figured out hull balance in the 30s, which many designers today just haven't got, especially on this side of the pond. Those who have owned their designs, are absolutely amazed at the directional stability of my boats , having previously believed it impossible . Having owned and crossed the Pacific in two previous boats with zero directional stability , I was extremely careful with hull balance, in designing my boats, with excellent results. I took Butler very seriously, which resulted in boats which have self steered on a broad reach, no one on the helm, no self steering. The opposite of some racing priorities.
The stability curve has often been posted on this site, and is permanent on the origami boats site , calculated by former sceptics.

 

[Brent Swain]

Which is exactly why Brent's boats are OK.

But he constantly dogs off any other boatbuilders or designers.

I cant recall him having a good word to say about any other boats or designers.

I was first inspired by Denis Ganley designs and the Departure 35 always impressed me . Dix has some great , practical designs, including frameless ones.
There are some great designs out there, in every aspect, except the outdated building methods.Don't expect me to praise that which I consider unseaworthy, or bad steel boat design, and not warn people , just to be"Nice" . That is not being"nice" ,to their victims.
For a finished boat, origami or not means nothing . For building a new boat , origami is the only logical route, the framed method is a pointless waste of time.

 

[Brent Swain]

['Quote]"Never confuse education with intelligence"

Absolutely, the point I have been trying to make all along!

 

[newtothis]

Not many designers have over 40 years of experience in any of their designs. Designers who's only experience is sitting at a drawing board, juggling numbers has no such appreciation, certainly nowhere near that of someone who has cruised mostly full time, for over 40 years, and who has put together over 3 dozen highly successful boats.

Erm, you started doing this in your 20s, and even with your weird grasp on reality, you're going to convince no one you had 40 years' experience then. Can we safely assume your first 20-30 years in the business were spent building crap tin cans? Or have you hand stitched your 36 "highly successful" boats only after you achieved your 40 years of experience?

 

[Brent Swain]

In Bruce Roberts book on steel boat building there is a rough analysis of vaious boat building materials rating various factors to come up with a total

In his book "The Complete Guide to Metal Boats" he states "If you make it too strong [ the skeg] you may sustain hull damage in the event of a collision". As a moderator in the original metal boat society forum said "That is like designing a car so the wheels fall of if you take a corner too fast. " Several posted experiences with skeg failures on Roberts designs including one relatively new boat which sunk from skeg failure crossing the gulf of Alaska. A freind circumnavigating in a Roberts 53, saw one hauled out in Brisbane,and was told she had sunk in the night from a skeg failure. He welded two big flat bars on at a 45 degree angle to the centreline , from the bottom of the skeg to the hull either side, before continuing his circumnavigation. Later I saw three Roberts design s hauled out in in Sidney BC, with the same reinforcing on their skegs. Roberts has since reinforced huis skegs on the inside, but beware of older ones.,
This is one of the three latest books on steel boats written by people who have never built one . Roberts knows very little about steel boats, only what he has read.

 

[Brent Swain]

Just checked the definition of "plastic" in Websters dictionary
"Any of various non metallic compounds, synthetically produced, which can be molded or hardened for commercial use."
How is polyester differnet from that definition?

 

[Brent Swain]

Erm, you started doing this in your 20s, and even with your weird grasp on reality, you're going to convince no one you had 40 years' experience then. Can we safely assume your first 20-30 years in the business were spent building crap tin cans? Or have you hand stitched your 36 "highly successful" boats only after you achieved your 40 years of experience?

No I Spent the time designing and building very high quality steel boats which the owners were extremely happy with. Winston Bushnell, a veteran of a circumnavigation ,built one for a circle Pacific cruise via the Marshal Islands Ponape , Japan and the Aleutians. Who's design did he choose for his next adventure, a single season passage thru the NW passage ? Mine ! Who's design did he choose for his next 36 footer? Mine . Musta liked it! Who's design did his daughter choose? Mine! ( see "When Kim Rowed Over " Sail magazine)
After sailing his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back, who's design did Dr Steve Millar choose for a Cape Horn, Aleutian run ? Mine! (Search Silas Crosby) Who's design did he recommend to a friend for a circumnavigation ? Mine !( search Tagish)

 

[Brent Swain]

If there was no advantage to an alloy mast cruising boats would all have steel masts. Builders don't build buy and fit more expensive alloy masts without good reason.

Two anecdotal stories about 'I didn't notice any difference' to the boats performance means diddly squat.

The numbers don't lie. How many racing boats have steel masts? How many commercially built cruisers have steel masts? (You've probably worked out that the answer is a number that's big and fat and round.)

Steel masts make no sense from a stability point of view or a performance point of view. Sealed masts might help the 'stability curve calculations' but do nothing for a boats sailing performance as all the halyards with their extra drag have to be routed outside the mast. Not critical on the average slow cruising boat, but when someone makes claims about their boats wonderful sailing performance, then it's another nail in the coffin of credibility AFAIC.

The extra weight aloft is exactly in the wrong place for performance too. More credibility lost...

An Alaskan spent two years cruising with a steel mast on one of my 36 footers, from Alaska to Australia and back . Then, he found a good deal on a used aluminium mast, and stepped it ,before doing a couple more years cruising the S Pacific. He said he noticed no real difference., Bob Perry mentioned designing high tech , very high priced carbon fibre mast for a 36 footer. After circumnavigating Vancouver Island , Perry asked him if it made a difference . "None that I noticed " was the answer. In 1982 a friend bought a new mast extrusion for one of my 36 footers, for $6K. Tubing for a steel mast costs around $300.
With so many aluminium masts available form scrapped plastic boats today that is now the way to go, if you find a deal on one.If not, steel can get you sailing quickly, instead of going to work to pay for a new aluminium mast, giving more time for one to show up.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, give the rest of the world a break and get some mental help.

Said the mass of lemmings to the ones running away from the cliff!

 

[dom]

Said the mass of lemmings to the ones running away from the cliff!

Jeez Brent, once again said mass of lemmings is just a myth, a Walt Disney invention in fact — not dissimilar to your fake stability curves.

Here’s a close to home link if you’re interested:
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56

 

[newtothis]

No I Spent the time designing and building very high quality steel boats which the owners were extremely happy with. Winston Bushnell, a veteran of a circumnavigation ,built one for a circle Pacific cruise via the Marshal Islands Ponape , Japan and the Aleutians. Who's design did he choose for his next adventure, a single season passage thru the NW passage ? Mine ! Who's design did he choose for his next 36 footer? Mine . Musta liked it! Who's design did his daughter choose? Mine! ( see "When Kim Rowed Over " Sail magazine)
After sailing his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back, who's design did Dr Steve Millar choose for a Cape Horn, Aleutian run ? Mine! (Search Silas Crosby) Who's design did he recommend to a friend for a circumnavigation ? Mine !( search Tagish)

Right, so contrary to your previous assertation, you don't need 40 years of buiding, crashing and bolloxing on about boats to be able to design one. So you can drop that one now. Thanks.

 

[Bajansailor]

And some extremely successful yacht designers have no engineering qualifications at all.
As an example, just look at Olin Stephens - I think he completed one term of naval architecture studies at university before dropping out. He then proceeded to design (while still in his early 20's) a range of breathtakingly beautiful and beautifully balanced (not to mention fast and seaworthy) yachts including Dorade and Stormy Weather, both of whom are still sailing today, 80+ years later, and still mopping up others on the race courses.

 

[Brent Swain]

You can certainly build something that floats. You might build something that sails. An understanding of basic mechanics and materials might build you a boat but there's no guarantee at all that it will be a good one.

Whether it's got desirable characteristics and balance on the helm that is predictable and it's reliable as it heels with trim stability that you can rely on and has a good sailing performance on all points of sail etc. is another matter.

There's rather more to good yacht design than just building something that is yacht shaped. It's all about compromise and varying one characteristic always compromises another. I'd rather have a boat that was designed by someone who had an appreciation of what compromises were being made, and who had actually done some stability calculation and knew something about ballast ratio and displacement and all the other factors.

Over 40 years of great passage times ,on all points of sail, steered with the simplest of wind vanes , over 350,000 miles of ocean cruising, including surviving serious groundings in big surf, for up to weeks at a time, pounding on both sand and coral, with zero serious structural damage, IS a far better guarantee that it IS a good one, than a charlatan armchair expert with zero such experience, scribbling on paper, for $175 an hour.

There is no safer boat to cruise in ,than one with that kind of track record ,over decades.

 

[Brent Swain]

And some extremely successful yacht designers have no engineering qualifications at all.
As an example, just look at Olin Stephens - I think he completed one term of naval architecture studies at university before dropping out. He then proceeded to design (while still in his early 20's) a range of breathtakingly beautiful and beautifully balanced (not to mention fast and seaworthy) yachts including Dorade and Stormy Weather, both of whom are still sailing today, 80+ years later, and still mopping up others on the race courses.

When I look overhead at an airplane here I can bet that almost all the bush planes are single engine beavers designed in the mid 1930's. Despite all efforts ,no one has come up with anything better for the job. They got it right the first time. One of my most outspoken designer critics bragged about how many boats he has designed. Decades of designing, and he is still trying to get it right. Like the design of Dehaviland Beaver , for the job, I got it right the first time.

 

[Brent Swain]

Jeez Brent, once again said mass of lemmings is just a myth, a Walt Disney invention in fact — not dissimilar to your fake stability curves.

Here’s a close to home link if you’re interested:
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56

Yes, but still relevant to a comparison of how urban consumers get their advice from those heading over a lifetime financial cliff.How to many wannabe cruisers lose the dream to such delusions of snobbery cruising.Don't follow group think ,if the group is not living the life you would like to be living.

 

[Brent Swain]

Did those fires happen when the boat was at sea? i.e. not in port or while anchored? Because that is the scenario you have been talking about.

If a fire goes out so quickly by closing the hatches, it will work regardless of the hull material. So that is not an argument in favour of steel.

My solution? I've never had a fire on board, but I know people who have. While at sea. Really at sea i.e. not in sight of land. On both occasions the fire was caught early and fought with extinguishers. Instantly out. The fires you describe could also have been fought with extinguishers.

Motoring into a steep headwind,. I shut the engine off and sailed downwind, while sealing every opening (In under a minute) .It was well under the cockpit, a hard area to reach with an extinguisher. A qualified deep sea skipper here said sealing the area is first priority, in their firefighting training. On the origamiboats site , making the engine compartment sealable, with a fire port, to stuff an extinguisher in was suggested, a great idea.