Steelboats

[Mister E]

GRP Glass Reinforced Polyester.

 

[rotrax]

GRP stands for "Glass Reinforced PLASTIC!"
Why? What did you think the P in GRP stands for?

See Brent - you are wrong again!

As post #1361 by Mister E clearly states it is Glass Reinforced Polyester.

And a very fine material for building boats it is too.

That is why there are lots of GRP boats around the world.

If I come to BC again I'll certainly buy you a beer. I only visit NZ to hang out with the Grandchildren over the cold and wet UK winters.

First mate and I are trying to achieve what Bruce Brown titled the definitive surfing movie he made in 1968-Endless Summer.

Not quite there yet, but pretty close!

 

[Brent Swain]

See Brent - you are wrong again!

As post #1361 by Mister E clearly states it is Glass Reinforced Polyester.

And a very fine material for building boats it is too.

That is why there are lots of GRP boats around the world.

If I come to BC again I'll certainly buy you a beer. I only visit NZ to hang out with the Grandchildren over the cold and wet UK winters.

First mate and I are trying to achieve what Bruce Brown titled the definitive surfing movie he made in 1968-Endless Summer.

Not quite there yet, but pretty close!

Yes, fibreglass is an excellent material for boat building, a huge improvement over wood, the material with the greatest number liabilities of any boat building material . It is excellent for what most boats are used for ,but for full time, care free ocean cruising , steel has definite, huge advantages , the main being safety, and extreme resistance to holing, and collisions in the night. Yes, it is a bit more maintenance than a well built plastic boat , ( which are a small porportion of those built) but the extreme peace of mind, of knowing you can collide with almost anything floating in the night, makes the minimal maintenance of a properly painted steel boat well worth the time that takes. If you stay on top of things, and deal with each paint ding as it appears ,the maintenance is minimal . If you let things go, over a long time , then it becomes a major job, which could have been easily avoided. That is also true of plastic boats.The time it takes to deal with things quickly, doesn't amount to much, if your boat is your full time home. Far less than maintaining a house.

I have read of GRP as being defined as glass reinforced plastic, in British magazines on many occasions. That also applies to epoxy, becoming far more common these days.

Yes we are long overdue for another version of Endless Summer. Could inspire a lot of youth, into positive choices. Good luck on that.


I don't drink alcohol , but like my coffee.

 

[Brent Swain]

I agree, he has developed a very interesting building method. Does it really matter that he is a strong advocate for his own boats? There's a raft of information on the internet about origami boats. Surely anyone with a genuine interest can make their own mind up without being critical on here.

Is someone suggesting I should be a strong critic of my boats, and a strong advocate of others? How many other designers do that? How stupid would that be? If I believed other ways of doing things were better, don't you think I would be doing things that way? How slow does that someone have to be, to not get this ?

 

[Brent Swain]

At the other end of the scale it also shows that geniuses recognize their own talent.

"A true genius is someone who can take something complex ,and make it simple."
Albert Einstein.

 

[Brent Swain]

Just fathomed it out. I believe you are implying that those that know the least about steel boats are the most critical.

Seems to be the case here.Its hard to imagine the peace of mind, of cruising at hull speed, on a dark foggy night, the peace of mind one only gets from a steel hull ,until you have experienced it. Until you have , you just wont get it. Ditto, high solid lifelines, etc , etc.

 

[Brent Swain]

Your pensions paid for by people who work for a living and are constantly ridiculed by you.

By a lifetime of paying sales taxes, GST , fuel taxes, the handing over of our birthright, CDN resources, to oil companies ,mining companies, and international corporations, in welfare payments, out of what belongs to all Canadians at birth, to corporate welfare scammers. No, that is OUR money .

 

[Brent Swain]

Now, of course, you have to explain why 99.9% of steel boat buyers prefer the more expensive version. Perhaps they sail well enough to avoid reefs?

Not here , where they have had the option, until I retired . We have built far more origami hulls than the expensive guys have built of theirs . The just promote more, and charge more. Then, some just want to buy a boat ,whereas I only worked for those who want to build.

 

[Brent Swain]

Van de Stadt don’t build boats. They’re designers. Perhaps you’d like to link to one of their origami designs?

Strongall are not a major builder and you’ve proved my point. If the design and build techniques were so wonderful, major yards would jump at the idea and build boats and make money. They don’t which makes one question the truth of some of the claims you make.

Some interesting and sensible discussions from people who may know what they are talking about here: https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/...he-ugly-steel-building-methods-that-is.34211/

I asked them how much steel boat building, cruising ,maintaining and living aboard experience they had. One had built steel boats for a living, but had only very limited coastal cruising experience. One, Aussie Pete Willey, was building his first ever steel boat, taking years to get to a stage where I get to in a week. He was the most outspoken, self proclaimed "expert:" on steel boats. The rest has zero steel boat experience. One said he welded up steel fence posts, so knew all there is to know about steel boats. The rest had no reply.

 

[DownWest]

I asked them how much steel boat building, cruising ,maintaining and living aboard experience they had. One had built steel boats for a living, but had only very limited coastal cruising experience. One, Aussie Pete Willey, was building his first ever steel boat, taking years to get to a stage where I get to in a week. He was the most outspoken, self proclaimed "expert:" on steel boats. The rest has zero steel boat experience. One said he welded up steel fence posts, so knew all there is to know about steel boats. The rest had no reply.

Selective memory Brent. You forgot the guy in SA who had built several VdS designs and questioned your figures. Your rather personal attack on him was what I suspect got you banned off that forum.

Edit:Since this thread is going nowhere new, I will not be replying again..

 

[rotrax]

He was the most outspoken, self proclaimed "expert:" on steel boats.

Thats funny-there must be two of them........................................

 

[john_morris_uk]

I asked them how much steel boat building, cruising ,maintaining and living aboard experience they had. One had built steel boats for a living, but had only very limited coastal cruising experience. One, Aussie Pete Willey, was building his first ever steel boat, taking years to get to a stage where I get to in a week. He was the most outspoken, self proclaimed "expert:" on steel boats. The rest has zero steel boat experience. One said he welded up steel fence posts, so knew all there is to know about steel boats. The rest had no reply.

I don't recall you replying to my previous comment on your suggestions about how only people who build and sail steel boats are qualified to comment on them.

My comment was that my architect has never laid a brick or built a wall in his life. Who would you trust to design a building? The brickie who lays the bricks, his assistant who mixes the muck or the architect?

 

[Brent Swain]

Selective memory Brent. You forgot the guy in SA who had built several VdS designs and questioned your figures. Your rather personal attack on him was what I suspect got you banned off that forum.

Edit:Since this thread is going nowhere new, I will not be replying again..

The only guy in that entire group of hecklers with any steel boat experience ,building only, with very limited coastal cruising experience. My attacks on him were only in fair response to his attacking me first, over and over again. "Several built" is a long way from over 3 dozen, and 9 Pacific crossings. He attacked the framelessness of my boats, then posted pictures of a frameless 38 ft VDS he had built, on the origamiboats site. I posted stability curves from several former skeptics , to answer his questions .

 

[rotrax]

The only guy in that entire group of hecklers with any steel boat experience ,building only, with very limited coastal cruising experience. My attacks on him were only in fair response to his attacking me first, over and over again. "Several built" is a long way from over 3 dozen, and 9 Pacific crossings. He attacked the framelessness of my boats, then posted pictures of a frameless 38 ft VDS he had built, on the origamiboats site. I posted stability curves from several former skeptics , to answer his questions .

But, Brent, what about answering john morris uk's question?

Who would you trust to design a building, a brickie or an architecht?

You cant make a silk purse out of a Sow's ear, but pretty straightforward to make something to hold loose change.

In that analogy you will see where the brickie might be led. He might be able to construct a weatherproof and durable building but without extensive knowlege of the limits of the design and material parameters he certainly would not make best use of the site and available material.

The Victorian Engineer Brunel built a twin span brick arch bridge over the River Thames at Maidenhead. The flattest and widest brick arches in the world at that date. 50,000 turned up to see the shuttering taken away and to then see the whole thing fall into the river. In the days when walking or a horse or carriage was the only transport.

Well, it is still there, carrying the GW Railway over the Thames 200 years later.

Cant see a brickie, however skilled at laying the flettons getting the design right for that, can you?

Your designs are empirical, and also conservative. Which is why they prove satisfactory in use.

But a non starter commercialy.

As you are well aware.

 

[Brent Swain]

I don't recall you replying to my previous comment on your suggestions about how only people who build and sail steel boats are qualified to comment on them.

My comment was that my architect has never laid a brick or built a wall in his life. Who would you trust to design a building? The brickie who lays the bricks, his assistant who mixes the muck or the architect?

When you fly in an airplane,which would you prefer ,the pilot who got 100% on the written test, but has zero flying experience ,or the one who got a bit less on the written test , but has decades of flying experience? They require air time for good reason, no matter how well you do on the written test.
On the origami site ,a client who is an aircraft instruments technician, said he was working with a guy with a degree on the subject, who didn't know how a capacitor works. When he asked how he got his degree, the answer was "The professor came in the night before the test ,and gave us the answers ,which we memorized."
I got 98% on my ham radio test that way.
Ideally, you want someone with experience in both . ( like the qualified pilot).
I have far more of that than most steel boat designers, by a wide margin.

 

[rotrax]

When you fly in an airplane,which would you prefer ,the pilot who got 100% on the written test, but has zero flying experience ,or the one who got a bit less on the written test , but has decades of flying experience? They require air time for good reason, no matter how well you do on the written test.
On the origami site ,a client who is an aircraft instruments technician, said he was working with a guy with a degree on the subject, who didn't know how a capacitor works. When he asked how he got his degree, the answer was "The professor came in the night before the test ,and gave us the answers ,which we memorized."
I got 98% on my ham radio test that way.
Ideally, you want someone with experience in both . ( like the qualified pilot).
I have far more of that than most steel boat designers, by a wide margin.

I note, just like a Politician, you have not answered the question. A lot of nebulous waffle wont cut it here.

Its simple Brent, Brickie or Architect.

We are are waiting...................................

 

[dom]

Brent, interesting twist this, but yes, John and Rotrax have a point: does one want a building designed by an architect with load calcs by a trained structural engineer, or just let a brickie get on with it?

I think the answer is binary :encouragement:

 

[john_morris_uk]

When you fly in an airplane,which would you prefer ,the pilot who got 100% on the written test, but has zero flying experience ,or the one who got a bit less on the written test , but has decades of flying experience? They require air time for good reason, no matter how well you do on the written test.

I'm interested in why you pose this question in reply. The answer is that I don't want either of your pilots to design the aircraft. I want someone who knows about aircraft design.

Your idee fixee about the the only person who is really qualified to design boats is a person who actually builds them and sails them in the context for which they have been designed seems to have been crashed like a dodgy aeroplane designed by a pilot but who knew nothing much about design.

So who shall I have design my house? The bricky who lays the bricks or the architect who's never got his hands dirty?

 

[NotBirdseye]

I'm interested in why you pose this question in reply. The answer is that I don't want either of your pilots to design the aircraft. I want someone who knows about aircraft design.

Your idee fixee about the the only person who is really qualified to design boats is a person who actually builds them and sails them in the context for which they have been designed seems to have been crashed like a dodgy aeroplane designed by a pilot but who knew nothing much about design.

So who shall I have design my house? The bricky who lays the bricks or the architect who's never got his hands dirty?

I can see the point you guys are making but it doesn't always ring true, I know of at least one 'brickie' that I'd sooner ask her to design and build me a house than I would a so called 'professional architect' fresh out of university (and even a number of people who profess that they are experienced architects). Experience counts and that's something Brunel knew very well. Brunel had an awful lot of hands on experience, in fact he's a rather poor example of education trumps experience as he took the vocational route not the academic route, civil engineering first and then design later.

Brent often comes across in certain way that does him no favors but think about it for a moment, he's not entirely wrong. Taking Brent's analogy of the aircraft pilot... while I wouldn't necessarily expect the aeroplane designer to be a top class pilot, I expect them to know what flying is like, what pilots seek out when choosing planes, any idiot can design a plane but it takes hands-on experience to design it well and when you're designing things without experience... you end up with transatlantic plane with no toilets and not enough extra fuel capacity to deal with any diversions mid flight (i.e. turbulence). Don't get me wrong I don't think education is worthless, but practical experience should be enhanced by education not replaced by it. Does Brent need an education? Probably. Are his boats terrible? (Probably not) Could they be better? Most likely.

Aside from the rust (because all steel boats are rust buckets, it's a given), i don't recall (last time I was here) that Brent's boats were actually bad as such compared to other steel boats is that the case?

 

[Achosenman]

If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to stay away from the pilot analogies guys. The ignorance on the subject is coming through loud and clear and is farcical.