Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

Reading through Boatdesign net half a dozen Professional engineers another group of Naval architects and various professional yacht designers boat builders and steel worjkers all revealed that you had almost no understanding of the failure modes of metal hulls. Virtually no understanding whatsoever of the technical process of yacht design, and that you not only completely misunderstood the process, but that you lied extensively about several things, including the derivation of stability for your designs.

The result was that BS Origami is apparently quite dead now, no ones building the boats anymore following the revelations made firstly on BD net. Everyone who was interested is building frameless Van de Staadts instead.

Even one of your own clients posted that he dumped an unfinished BS origami hull and built a VDS hull instead, he even gave you an earful on BD net and told you to man up and listen to the professionals that were offering to help you improve your design and deduce the correct stability curve. You want the link ?








So you were severely mauled by the pro's there. There were several other revelations too. So it's no wonder you try and do a BS job on BD net.

Pros ? Only by their own claims .Any kid in his mother's basement can make their claims , with as little evidence, and you would believe them, if they told you what you want to hear.
One cowboy there said he welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so he knows more than me about steel boat building!
Typical of the "Expertise "there.

What Professional Engineers or designers are you talking about? Only one designer there ,who designed his own origami boat , which looks like a plagerism of mine. Only one had any considerable steel boat building experience, who said origami is a good idea, he just didn't like me.
When I asked them about their own cruising experience, only he had any to report , limited coastal cruising experience. The rest had none to report. One Australian ,Tasmanian, Pete Wiley was building a Colvin Saugeen witch.He took years to get to a stage I get to in a week.
Several of my clients have upgraded from a Saugeen witch to my boats, a huge improvement , they all said , far roomier, better sailing ,easier to maintain etc etc.
Wiley claimed his was much roomier , with over a foot less waterline beam ,and 8 ft wasted on cockpit and lazarette, so little head room under the side decks , the deck hits you in the back of the neck, when you sit on the setee berth . You do the math. They are like a collection of closets, inside.
All the hundreds who have chosen my designs , many with extensive offshore experience, could have chosen Van de Stats, or any other designs. All said they made the wiser choice.
Van de Stadt is one of very few designers who have taken advantage of the properties of steel, advancing ahead of the outdated , 1950s , wooden boat building methods . His designs and methods are second only to mine, the next step in small steel boat building progress.
Winston Bushnell had a circumnavigation behind him ,when he built his first brentboat . After circling the Pacific in her, via Ponape , Japan and the Aleutians, ( covered by Pacific Yachting Magazine, and two books about the trip) what did he choose for the NW passage ? Another brentboat. After a single season passage thru the NW passage, what did he choose for his next boat/?Another brentboat.
What did his daughter choose ? A brentboat. Read "When Kim Rowed Over "Sail Magazine.
After a couple of 2 year stints around the S Pacific ,as far as Australia, and back to Alaska, what did Andy Deering choose for his recently started Alaska boat? A brentboat? (Twin keels this time, for the 20 ft tides up there.) Another one of my 40 footers was just started in Oregon, on the recommendation of Andy.
Dr Steve Millar, a had at trip from BC to New Zealand and back in his wake ,when he chose a brentboat for his Cape Horn ambition. Search Silas Crosby. He recommended Tagish for a circumnavigation.Search Tagish.

Which client did you claim dumped one of mine? Pete Wiley? He never started one of mine. Never bought the plans. Bought my book, and committed copyright infringement on that site. Didn't like the AVS of 165 degrees of my 36, calculated by two independent sources. Only started the Saugeen witch . So what is the AVS of the Saugeen witch? Wiley didn't have it. I doubt one exists.

Friends with brentboat experience were banned from BD .net, and other sites , for saying positive, experience based things , about their brentboats. Anyone with such experience, trying to pass their experience on, were automatically accused of being me.

Yes, with the world awash in plastic boats no one wants anymore , far fewer backyard boats are being built ,or new boats in general. I have heard most designers have experienced a huge slowdown in work. Just in time for me. I make good plans available, for the benefit of the home builder, who doesn't want to take forever for a mediochre boat, but wants to end up with one of the most well proven steel boats out there. If he wants to do it the hard way , let him go ahead . I couldn't care less. I am retired . Turned down all boat building requests, since my pension started sending me more money than I need. It just keeps piling up.
Building a hull in 3 days ,and a shell in a week , is very strenuous work. I prefer to go fishing sailing ,or hunting instead. Even in my youth , a month of that a year was all the body could take .

 

[Gisborne]

Pros ? Only by their own claims .Any kid in his mother's basement can make their claims , with as little evidence, and you would believe them, if they told you what you want to hear.

Yet when active on that site you never once questioned their qualifications or training. You knew very well what they were, several of them offered you direct and free professional contact to try and sort out the mess you made as a designer. Others posted detailed FEA sumulations. Another who even lives close to you produced some rough stability information and wanted you to bring your boat to him for final verification before you used his figures. Stability information you simply lied about to your victims/ clients. Now you even use an AVS he gave you that he told you needs verifying. You now tell everyone it's verified and it isn't.

One cowboy there said he welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so he knows more than me about steel boat building!

mmm...... he says he welded steel cattle yards, and that they would have rejected steel fabrication in cattle yards that you think is ok for boats. And they weren't fussy. So you are just doing a BS number on tat.

When I asked them about their own cruising experience, only he had any to report , limited coastal cruising experience. The rest had none to report.

That's just made up, like nearly everything you post it has the ghost of a cousin of the fact. You seem to rely on the fact that refuting BS's BS takes 10 times the energy of BS uttering it. It's all been shown to be BS before.

All the hundreds who have chosen my designs , many with extensive offshore experience, could have chosen Van de Stats, or any other designs. All said they made the wiser choice.

This is the hundreds from the 200 you claim have been built ? That's another issue why did 170 of those boats sink ?
Apparently One came off it's mooring and was a write off, another hit a rock was holed and started sinking and was saved by the coast guard.
One trying to get around cape horn and was rolled 3 times but it came back eventually, not sure what happened to the other 168 or so, maybe you know where the wrecks are ???

Van de Stadt is one of very few designers who .............. His designs and methods are second only to mine

Your are clearly a backyard amateur hack. And none of the great success stories you use were even your boats they were another parallel developer and builder called Evan Shaler. You also apparently ripped the whole origami design thing from a Swede Lundstrom who does a much better job than you. And it was proven on another site (by a lawyer no less) that you lied that your first origami plans pre-dated Lundstrom's patent.

You even admitted on other sites that you didn't think of the design method !

Which client did you claim dumped one of mine?

The one lambasting you and telling you to man up and listen to the Pro's, built one of your hulls (and said parts were very poorly designed) posts on BD net as Tazman.

Another who lost his boat Mungo on a Baja beach bought a Colvin design for his next boat not another origami.

Friends with brentboat experience were banned from BD .net, and other sites , for saying positive, experience based things , about their brentboats.

And that's simply a lie. Your cycle endlessly through fantasies, and lies. I see on other sites they learned that if you can't give a link to prove anything then it didn't happen.

Your supposed 9 return trips across the Pacific was a good one ....Turned out the first two and a half voyages were probably legit and the others were coastal trips within Canadian waters.

Nothing you say is trustworthy, your engineering knowledge is abysmal, what you claim as your boats are not built to your plans. The more the topic of BS is researched the more it reeks of a deluded cult leader abandoned by his acolytes for a more sensible choice.

 

[rotrax]

Yet when active on that site you never once questioned their qualifications or training. You knew very well what they were, several of them offered you direct and free professional contact to try and sort out the mess you made as a designer. Others posted detailed FEA sumulations. Another who even lives close to you produced some rough stability information and wanted you to bring your boat to him for final verification before you used his figures. Stability information you simply lied about to your victims/ clients. Now you even use an AVS he gave you that he told you needs verifying. You now tell everyone it's verified and it isn't.




mmm...... he says he welded steel cattle yards, and that they would have rejected steel fabrication in cattle yards that you think is ok for boats. And they weren't fussy. So you are just doing a BS number on tat.




That's just made up, like nearly everything you post it has the ghost of a cousin of the fact. You seem to rely on the fact that refuting BS's BS takes 10 times the energy of BS uttering it. It's all been shown to be BS before.



This is the hundreds from the 200 you claim have been built ? That's another issue why did 170 of those boats sink ?
Apparently One came off it's mooring and was a write off, another hit a rock was holed and started sinking and was saved by the coast guard.
One trying to get around cape horn and was rolled 3 times but it came back eventually, not sure what happened to the other 168 or so, maybe you know where the wrecks are ???



Your are clearly a backyard amateur hack. And none of the great success stories you use were even your boats they were another parallel developer and builder called Evan Shaler. You also apparently ripped the whole origami design thing from a Swede Lundstrom who does a much better job than you. And it was proven on another site (by a lawyer no less) that you lied that your first origami plans pre-dated Lundstrom's patent.

You even admitted on other sites that you didn't think of the design method !




The one lambasting you and telling you to man up and listen to the Pro's, built one of your hulls (and said parts were very poorly designed) posts on BD net as Tazman.

Another who lost his boat Mungo on a Baja beach bought a Colvin design for his next boat not another origami.



And that's simply a lie. Your cycle endlessly through fantasies, and lies. I see on other sites they learned that if you can't give a link to prove anything then it didn't happen.

Your supposed 9 return trips across the Pacific was a good one ....Turned out the first two and a half voyages were probably legit and the others were coastal trips within Canadian waters.

Nothing you say is trustworthy, your engineering knowledge is abysmal, what you claim as your boats are not built to your plans. The more the topic of BS is researched the more it reeks of a deluded cult leader abandoned by his acolytes for a more sensible choice.

WOW!

What are we to believe? Who are we to believe?

I tend towards Gisbourne-I have had enough of BS's BS.

But then I take the advice of a truism I use from time to time:-

'Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.'

That does nicely for Brent then............................................

 

[NormanS]

WOW!

What are we to believe? Who are we to believe?

I tend towards Gisbourne-I have had enough of BS's BS.

..

Can you maybe give us a clue why you believe one, rather than the other?

 

[Achosenman]

Can you maybe give us a clue why you believe one, rather than the other?

Because he's had to wade through the posts of one and not the other...

 

[NotBirdseye]

Can you maybe give us a clue why you believe one, rather than the other?

Bearing in mind that this has nothing to do with Steel Boats but rather the reliability of the self professed expert.

I'll also note he hasn't linked to any safety assessments or independent organizations that have verified his work. (A bit like getting an accountant to verify your finances from time to time....) In fact no one with a reputation to lose has put their name towards anything Brent says.

Simply google Brent Swain and then possibly boatdesign and you'll see a multitude of posts by respected netizens in their fields. It's a bit like failing to listen to Sandy on Engineering, not a good idea. Anyway here are a few examples of what Brent's reputation:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/178877-shit-brent-swain-says/
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/origami-metal-boat-construction-846.html

He been banned from more boat sites than you can shake a stick at. Basically, his 'poor character', lack of back up from his boat building peers and his fantastical assertions means that every word Brent utters has be checked, thoroughly researched and signed off by an actual engineer first. Which is a shame because it has put me well off a Brent Swain design. I might go for a Van Der Stadt instead.

The Origami method is a proven method (it's not Brent's contrary to his prior assertion in this thread) and seems to work well. I don't understand it, but i'm not sure why it can't be applied to another materials other than steel (no point probably!).

 

[NormanS]

Because he's had to wade through the posts of one and not the other...

Sheer prejudice then. I'm not sure why I'm defending Brent Swain, but at least I know that he has built and sailed steel yachts. About the "other", I know diddly squat. He is a newcomer here, has made a total of three posts, tells us nothing about himself or his level of knowledge about steel yachts, but rotrax would rather take his word than Brent's.

 

[Achosenman]

Sheer prejudice then. I'm not sure why I'm defending Brent Swain, but at least I know that he has built and sailed steel yachts. About the "other", I know diddly squat. He is a newcomer here, has made a total of three posts, tells us nothing about himself or his level of knowledge about steel yachts, but rotrax would rather take his word than Brent's.

I think there's plenty of prejudice to go around on this thread. Hardly surprising really.

 

[steve yates]

Sheer prejudice then. I'm not sure why I'm defending Brent Swain, but at least I know that he has built and sailed steel yachts. About the "other", I know diddly squat. He is a newcomer here, has made a total of three posts, tells us nothing about himself or his level of knowledge about steel yachts, but rotrax would rather take his word than Brent's.

You know this? Care to tell us how? Were you there? Have you sailed a boat he has built?

I am curious, because I know nothing of anyone involved in these discussions, and nothing about steel boats. But I have read a lot of Brent's posts, and I have to say I think the guy talks a lot of shit, if he is not actually delusional or nuts. Now being mentally ill would normally illicit sympathy, but not if he is pretending to be the voice of experience and people actually believe him.

Just because he has sailed, means nothing. Kelly's Eye has obviously done a lot of miles, but I wouldn't listen to anything he recommends t all!

 

[rotrax]

Sheer prejudice then. I'm not sure why I'm defending Brent Swain, but at least I know that he has built and sailed steel yachts. About the "other", I know diddly squat. He is a newcomer here, has made a total of three posts, tells us nothing about himself or his level of knowledge about steel yachts, but rotrax would rather take his word than Brent's.

I have researched Brent Swain and his boats and have come to the conclusion from that research - reinforced by Gisbourne's post - that he, at the very least, exaggerates to the maximum.

He has stated many times that one of his boats survived 16 days pounding on a Baja beach in heavy surf.

When he posted a photo, the surf was gentle waves, what a cruise ship makes on Osboune Bays beach when leaving the Solent.

Oh yes - his welding is crap too!

 

[NormanS]

I have researched Brent Swain and his boats and have come to the conclusion from that research - reinforced by Gisbourne's post - that he, at the very least, exaggerates to the maximum.

He has stated many times that one of his boats survived 16 days pounding on a Baja beach in heavy surf.

When he posted a photo, the surf was gentle waves, what a cruise ship makes on Osboune Bays beach when leaving the Solent.

Oh yes - his welding is crap too!

Yes, I accept most of that, but what do you know about the steel boats that Gisborne has built, designed, and sailed (if any)?
I suspect that you know as much about Gisborne as I do - nothing. Take care, your prejudices are hanging out.

 

[Gisborne]

............... what do you know about the steel boats that Gisborne has built, designed, and sailed (if any)?..........

Do you need to have been an elected member of parliament to write about politics? Don't you think the messenger is irrelevant here? Pretend I'm an artificial intelligence if it makes you happier. If I make any statements then I'm prepared to debate them with Brent. But the points have all been made before by other well qualified people and I'll link to them as we go on.

Lets take one of Brent's statements and set the BS meter:

I'm tongue firmly in cheek when it comes to the bulk of Brents claimed 200 boats sinking. The point is that 200 is Brent’s estimate of the number of plans sold, he just likes to mix that up with boats built . According to a pro boat designer in the heart of Brent's geographical area, only around a couple of dozen have been launched, probably 30 would be a fair claim 50 would be being wildly generous. Noting that the bulk were not built to Brent’s structural plans just the hullform and plating technique.

So being generous with 50 quasi origami Brentish boats built we have a BS level of 400% and that's pretty typical of Brent. You'll find the same with other stories such as a favorite of his of motoring his 32 footer through half a mile of 5" ice, the Baja Beach boat pounding in 12 foot surf for weeks etc

In lieu of any engineering skill whatsoever Brent has instead a personal collection of tall tales supposedly demonstrating the incredible durability and strength of his boats. The tales that have been checked before have been shown to be nonsense. Claims of incredible feats are always 2nd or 3rd hand BS without any supporting evidence. When anyone else comes forward who was involved they are never the same stories as Brent’s version.

Brent can confirm that he has only built two boats. That he hasn't crossed the Pacific 9 times, that there are not 200 Brent boats and the list goes on

Whether I have experience sailing or building a steel boat has nothing to do with it.

 

[TSB240]

I do hope you dont kill off this thread before it achieves record views..... I think Walter Mitty had a much less interesting career than BS... BS stories get much repeating and will surely be immortalised by Hollywood...

 

[NormanS]

Do you need to have been an elected member of parliament to write about politics? Don't you think the messenger is irrelevant here? Pretend I'm an artificial intelligence if it makes you happier. If I make any statements then I'm prepared to debate them with Brent. But the points have all been made before by other well qualified people and I'll link to them as we go on.

Whether I have experience sailing or building a steel boat has nothing to do with it.

Right, so we can make our own assumptions.

Absolutely, you are entitled to your opinions, and you don't need any specialist knowledge for them. I'm not getting at you at all.

In the interest of fairness, I do find it somewhat strange that a person says that he " would tend towards Gisborne, rather than BS", when/if he knows nothing at all about the former. I merely wondered if he was basing his judgement on anything stronger than blind prejudice.

 

[Achosenman]

Given the history of BS, it's hardly "blind" prejudice.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Given the history of BS, it's hardly "blind" prejudice.

Unless you can refute his claims with reason, actual experience or facts, rejection of his stance is prejudice. The adjective blind is not required as it does not modify the definition of prejudice.

The fact of the matter is that Brent Swain produces plans and boats have been built and sailed from his plans. Steel sailing yachts around the size of his boats, have survived some incredible impacts and poundings, there is experience and facts around that. There are books on similar sized steel yachts deliberately beset in ice and surviving artic winters. What about his design? Well, Monocoque, which is essentially what his designs are is a well proven method of construction to achieve strength and lightness when resisting both compressive and tensile loads. If I remember correctly his designs still require horizontal stringers, so not a true Monocoque.

 

[Achosenman]

Unless you can refute his claims with reason, actual experience or facts, rejection of his stance is prejudice. The adjective blind is not required as it does not modify the definition of prejudice.

The fact of the matter is that Brent Swain produces plans and boats have been built and sailed from his plans. Steel sailing yachts around the size of his boats, have survived some incredible impacts and poundings, there is experience and facts around that. There are books on similar sized steel yachts deliberately beset in ice and surviving artic winters. What about his design? Well, Monocoque, which is essentially what his designs are is a well proven method of construction to achieve strength and lightness when resisting both compressive and tensile loads. If I remember correctly his designs still require horizontal stringers, so not a true Monocoque.

Norman S coined the phrase "blind" prejudice. I understand and suspect everyone reading it knew what he meant.

If you want to play silly bugger fill your boots.

The bottom line is everyone makes decisions based on personal prejudice. To claim otherwise is simply a denial of reality.

I've never met rotax or BS. However reading this thread and researching other forums regarding this subject, I'd trust rotax but wouldn't trust the other to lie straight in bed. Put simply one has form, the other doesn't.

 

[dom]

It seems fair to conclude that Brent’s endless claims represent self-propaganda at its most mendacious. Gisborne adds context and colour to the faulty stability calcs I highlighted below and Brent’s false claim of having received formal accreditation for them. JM meanwhile uncovered Brent’s fake Pacific crossings, Rotrax et al. his clueless steelwork, while others questioned his comical reef survival claims. The list goes on.

In this context I find Gisborne’s arguments compelling; for they intertwine well with what we already know, they are backed up with references to other publications where Brent has been caught out, and they’re also well written, logical, and largely unemotional in nature.

Gisborne could of of course be a member of the illuminati, but I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt

+1, mast weight of course being the reason people pay a hefty premium for carbon. Moreover, Brent's stability claim would not pass any recognised test as masts are often ripped off during B2 capsizes when AVS becomes relevant. Coupled with Brent's defective loading calcs, the inherent risk of these boats is becoming apparent to all.

As many have long suspected, Brent's vessels increasingly appear to be dangerous, non-certificated DIY bodges. Sad really, for humans are generally a cooperative bunch and he might have fared better if he'd listened and cooperated, as opposed to single-handedly trying to rubbish the entire boat building and naval architecture industries!

Jeez Brent, once again said mass of lemmings is just a myth, a Walt Disney invention in fact — not dissimilar to your fake stability curves.

In the interest of fairness, I do find it somewhat strange that a person says that he " would tend towards Gisborne, rather than BS", when/if he knows nothing at all about the former. I merely wondered if he was basing his judgement on anything stronger than blind prejudice.

 

[steve yates]

Does anyone else keep getting confused when reading BS for Brent Swain and assuming it stands for Bull Shit?

 

[Achosenman]

Does anyone else keep getting confused when reading BS for Brent Swain and assuming it stands for Bull Shit?

Is there a difference?