Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Brent Swain]

Buying your steel shot blasted and primed with a grey, cold galvanizing primer, at the source, both for building and repairs ,saves a lot of time and money.
Avoid the red or blue primer.
I used hot galvanized plate for mine ,costing not much more.

 

[Brent Swain]

Those who know him are not posting on here in his defence! What can be found about him in the online media is not always complimentary.

Some of his claims and derogatory remarks dont stack up, even to me with only 15 years sailing experience.

Those who have tried to defend me, have been attacked and banned instantly. They have said "Logic has no place in the minds of the trolls. Logic simply doesn't work there."
What precisely doesn't stack up?
When I had only 15 years of sailing experience, there was a lot I still didn't understand , that over 40 years has given me. 15 years of plastic boat experience does not constitute expertise in steel boats. Can you give us a rundown of what that 15 years of sailing experience consists of? Steel boat experience?
Posting plans means giving up a part of my livelihood . Would you?

 

[ianabc]

I used hot galvanized plate for mine ,costing not much more.

https://www.bakersgas.com/weldmyworld/2011/.../side-effects-welding-galvanized-ste...

- Galvanized Steel. ......

Many welders usually weld galvanized steel at some point in their career; and in doing so they may experience galvanize poisoning or metal fume fever. Galvanize poisoning is a condition that ...

 

[Uricanejack]

I suppose if anyone really wants a set of Brent's plans. They could just by a set.
Off course that is probably only worth while if you are thinking of building one of his steel boats.
Life was to short to read all of SA about Brent's boats. Or the argument between him and some naval architects.

Do any Naval Architects assert Brent's boats are unsafe and if so have they explained why? Or is it just he's not a naval architect therefore his boats might be unsafe.

There are quite a few posts and blogs from people who have built and sail these boats and appear quite happy.
They look quite nice.

Not my cup of tea. I like my IOR C&C .

Yet a summary of responses I would expect from the average sailing forum when I suggest going offshore in my boat.
would include but not be limited to.
"Your Rudder will Break"
"your keel will fall off if you try sail offshore".
"Your boat will slam and wont go to windward"
"you will die"
"You should get a boat with long keel"
"You should get a boat with skeg hung rudder"
"You should get a heavier boat"
"you don't need a life raft"

Apart from being steel. Brent's boats look like the usual forums idea of the "ideal offshore sailing boat".
Heavy, Long, Narrow, Long Keel, Skeg Rudder.
On top of all that it they have pilot house or wheel house.

Rather than plans. If you want to compare Brent's boats to other boats. I would suggest comparing rough stability data. Detailed data probably doesn't exist.
Cant say I've seen much evidence they are prone to capsize

I have seen a few picture of them sitting on top of rocks or stuck on beaches.

My conclusion. If you suck at navigation? You should, get a steel boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have been warned by the moderator not to post such things here, as it is considered promotion. Any attempts I have made to post drawings here, have not worked.
No one has had any problems building to the drawings, with good results, and very few questions, as one can see on the origamiboats site.
What exaggerations do you refer to?

I am a moderator and I’m actually one of the people who have asked for some drawings. I’ve warned you against constantly advertising your boats and your building but that’s a different matter. None of the other mods have warned you against posting pictures of your plans as far as I’m aware.

Those who have tried to defend me, have been attacked and banned instantly. They have said "Logic has no place in the minds of the trolls. Logic simply doesn't work there."
What precisely doesn't stack up?
When I had only 15 years of sailing experience, there was a lot I still didn't understand , that over 40 years has given me. 15 years of plastic boat experience does not constitute expertise in steel boats. Can you give us a rundown of what that 15 years of sailing experience consists of? Steel boat experience?
Posting plans means giving up a part of my livelihood . Would you?

No ones been banned on these forums in relation to any of your posts. As a moderator I’ve got access to the list of all temporary and permanent bans and your claim is false.

Might I respectfully point out you’re not covering yourself in glory making demonstrably false claims.

 

[rotrax]

Also Brent, you have been told, directly, by me, that although I have only 15 years of sailing experience, I own a steel boat and have a great deal of experience maintaining and repairing steel Narrow boats, specifically built for the UK's narrow-7 foot gauge-canals. 45 years of experience.

In the last 4 years I have sailed almost 6,000 NM in my two Island Packets around the coasts of Ireland, Scotland, the English South Coast, France and the Channel Islands.

Tides running at 8 KTS plus, rising and falling 14 metres.

I have never proposed expertise in steel boats or boatbuilding.

Now to the rub. In post # 518 you stated quite clearly you were happy to show your plans.

The Moderator has said its fine.

As I said before, its time to put up or shut up.

 

[NormanS]

Somewhere away back in this dismal thread, someone posted a link to a series of pictures and text, about someone building a boat to one of Brent's designs. It showed precisely how the origami system worked, and as one who has built an Alan Pape designed steel yacht, which involved making and setting up frames, and then round-bar chines, before the plating could start, I was certainly impressed.

Instead of demanding that Brent publishes his plans for free on the net, which seems to be an outrageous request, why don't the moaners on here do some research for themselves, starting with checking out the referred link.

 

[coenvanwyk]

Some links to completed projects and some in process would be nice.

 

[rotrax]

Somewhere away back in this dismal thread, someone posted a link to a series of pictures and text, about someone building a boat to one of Brent's designs. It showed precisely how the origami system worked, and as one who has built an Alan Pape designed steel yacht, which involved making and setting up frames, and then round-bar chines, before the plating could start, I was certainly impressed.

Instead of demanding that Brent publishes his plans for free on the net, which seems to be an outrageous request, why don't the moaners on here do some research for themselves, starting with checking out the referred link.

But in post # 518 Brent states quite clearly he is happy to show his plans to those who asked to see them.

No one has " Demanded " anything!

Brent can make a better, stronger block than anything Harken produce for a few dollars.

I know he can-he said so on here.

I asked where to send the money as I wanted a six pack.

Brent went very quiet.

 

[NormanS]

Some links to completed projects and some in process would be nice.

If you are really interested, you'll find a link somewhere away back in this thread. I'm not spoon feeding anyone.

 

[lpdsn]

Bob Perry has designed a 37 footer using traditional frames and 1/8th inch plate ,a boat I met a couple of summers ago, who's owner said it weighed 36,000 lbs. A big contrast with an origami boat that size weighing under 20,000 lbs. The lack of framing lets one go for thicker plate ,and still have a lighter hull, which is a lot more forgiving of any corrosion problems. .

Has anyone ever got one of your boats through the RCD?

 

[solent clown]

If you are really interested, you'll find a link somewhere away back in this thread. I'm not spoon feeding anyone.

I posted the link you refer to, it has a detailed build thread. Real world evidence of the method etc. I do not agree with much Mr Swain says, or maybe I mean, how he says it, but that link showed for real howw they are built. I had a couiple of reservations about some of the details, but how many steel boats have I built.. None. I still feel he does not allow question and debate that would help his cause as he takes it as criticism.
I understand he is trapped in a defensive posture, and none of us are helping that.
I also think the unconventional method of build, with no shear panels and bulkheads is uncomfortable viewing for an engineer. that does not absolutely mean it is wrong though.

One thing I am having trouble with is this insulation/heat retention thing where there is an assertion in this thread that steel is less hot, hot , and less cold, cold... If someone could explain that to me I would be very grateful. Having extensive experience of armoured fighting vehicles it is completely counterintuitive to me.

 

[GHA]

One thing I am having trouble with is this insulation/heat retention thing where there is an assertion in this thread that steel is less hot, hot , and less cold, cold... If someone could explain that to me I would be very grateful. Having extensive experience of armoured fighting vehicles it is completely counterintuitive to me.

Thick layer of sprayed foam insulation above the water line - keeps the heat in or the heat out A bit anyway.
Living aboard the snow melts first in lines along the deck where the frames stick slightly proud of the insulation inside. Snow will be gone from the plastic liveaboard down the pontoon before you.
Still gets hot in the topics but a bit slower than plastic.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I posted the link you refer to, it has a detailed build thread. Real world evidence of the method etc. I do not agree with much Mr Swain says, or maybe I mean, how he says it, but that link showed for real howw they are built. I had a couiple of reservations about some of the details, but how many steel boats have I built.. None. I still feel he does not allow question and debate that would help his cause as he takes it as criticism.
I understand he is trapped in a defensive posture, and none of us are helping that.
I also think the unconventional method of build, with no shear panels and bulkheads is uncomfortable viewing for an engineer. that does not absolutely mean it is wrong though.

One thing I am having trouble with is this insulation/heat retention thing where there is an assertion in this thread that steel is less hot, hot , and less cold, cold... If someone could explain that to me I would be very grateful. Having extensive experience of armoured fighting vehicles it is completely counterintuitive to me.

The main problem with heat on a steel boat is when you walk on deck in bare feet. Like being a fire walker. Yes it can and does get hot below in summer where I am but so does a GRP boat.

lots of opening windows and hatches for ventilation. The main issue on my boat is the big glass windows in my wheel house/deck saloon.

50 to 60 mm spray in insulation throughout.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I posted the link you refer to, it has a detailed build thread. Real world evidence of the method etc. I do not agree with much Mr Swain says, or maybe I mean, how he says it, but that link showed for real howw they are built. I had a couiple of reservations about some of the details, but how many steel boats have I built.. None. I still feel he does not allow question and debate that would help his cause as he takes it as criticism.
I understand he is trapped in a defensive posture, and none of us are helping that.
I also think the unconventional method of build, with no shear panels and bulkheads is uncomfortable viewing for an engineer. that does not absolutely mean it is wrong though.

One thing I am having trouble with is this insulation/heat retention thing where there is an assertion in this thread that steel is less hot, hot , and less cold, cold... If someone could explain that to me I would be very grateful. Having extensive experience of armoured fighting vehicles it is completely counterintuitive to me.

This is a site showing building one of swains boats.

http://www.sv-mom.com/construction.html

Lots of pics linked in the text.

This is another built in a similar way to Brent's

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/muller/yago/index.htm

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

And here's a link to the origami boats website:

http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/

There's shed loads of stuff on there.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Somewhere away back in this dismal thread, someone posted a link to a series of pictures and text, about someone building a boat to one of Brent's designs. It showed precisely how the origami system worked, and as one who has built an Alan Pape designed steel yacht, which involved making and setting up frames, and then round-bar chines, before the plating could start, I was certainly impressed.

Instead of demanding that Brent publishes his plans for free on the net, which seems to be an outrageous request, why don't the moaners on here do some research for themselves, starting with checking out the referred link.

I don't want Brent to publish complete sets of plans. Just some line drawings with details of scantlings, plate thicknesses and some of the calculations that have been made about form and dynamic stability, ballast ratios etc that anyone who designs boats will know all about. His claims that his boats are lighter (because of the revolutionary build techniques) has been questioned by some people who claim to be Naval Architects. I explained that I know a real Naval Architect and I would very much like his opinion on the design and the figures I would like Brent to share with us. This is a completely honest and open request in the hope that Brent can exonerate himself and his designs. I appreciate that he might feel under attack, but I emphasise again that a little humility and less certainty would help dissipate some of the negative responses and gain him a sympathetic hearing. In other words don't make outrageous claims that are demonstrably false. (Like claiming that a steel boat to his design is so inherently safe and unlikely to sink that you don't need a life-raft. (Whether you carry a life-raft or not is a personal choice, and not to be treated the cavalier fashion that he suggests.)

And here's a link to the origami boats website:

http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/

There's shed loads of stuff on there.

My problem with the origami website is that it is run by the very people (Brent Swain and Alex Christie) who are co-authors of the book and who stand to profit from sails of the plans and the book. Brent freely admits that they delete any adverse comments from their website so its hardly an unbiased picture.

Abobe all, it would help if Brent stopped suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with him is ether an ignorant idiot, or simply lacks real experience. It's patently obvious that with many of the respondents on here, neither is true, and continually saying it merely serves to annoy and wind people up the wrong way.

 

[NormanS]

Well, JM, he has certainly "wound you up the wrong way". As a matter of interest, what exactly does he need to "exonerate" himself from? Lots of us on this forum have opinions, some of which may not quite align with yours. Do we also have to be exonerated? Why not just leave the guy alone? You're obviously never going to agree. Have you ever built a steel yacht?

 

[lpdsn]

Why not just leave the guy alone?

BS is not exactly a newbie poster venturing tentatively into the internet world to be treated with kid gloves (and they rarely are anyway, I think most new posters get accused of being a troll before the tenth post in their first thread).

He has substantial experience of posting, and disagreeing with most, on a number of fora worldwide to the extent he's been banned from some.

So should we just leave him alone? And are we treating him unfairly? He's a self-declared expert. He is pushing his expertise very strongly but to many people, me included, it doesn't hang together. Doubts are very reasonable I'd say.

So not unfair to ask him to back up some of his claims of expertise.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well, JM, he has certainly "wound you up the wrong way". As a matter of interest, what exactly does he need to "exonerate" himself from? Lots of us on this forum have opinions, some of which may not quite align with yours. Do we also have to be exonerated? Why not just leave the guy alone? You're obviously never going to agree. Have you ever built a steel yacht?

I haven't welded a steel yacht together, but I know something about how welding is not quite as simple as BS makes out. I have certainly stick welded and some welds have been ones I've been proud of and some are ones I'd rather forget about. But that's not the point. I've been involved in sailing and the sea for over fifty years now (gulp) and I've sailed across oceans in steel yachts and GRP yachts and Ive seen steel yachts being built and I've seen steel yachts corroding away and being scrapped. But so what to all that.... because the real issue is someone appearing who claims infallibility and knowledge that is sometimes foolish and sometimes dangerous. I don't care one way or another whether BS has built yachts that have bounced off coral or been dragged across sand bars in pounding surf (neither of these are really set to impress me or any professional navigator, but these things happen) I do care about people having tunnel vision and potentially leading gullible newcomers to the sailing and live-aboard-life astray with fancy tales about how they can realise their dream and stay safe if only they build a yacht to BS's design etc.

What's especially sad is that I think that BS has some real and valuable contributions to make. If he'd just be a little more measured in his response and acknowledge that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

BS is not exactly a newbie poster venturing tentatively into the internet world to be treated with kid gloves (and they rarely are anyway, I think most new posters get accused of being a troll before the tenth post in their first thread).

He has substantial experience of posting, and disagreeing with most, on a number of fora worldwide to the extent he's been banned from some.

So should we just leave him alone? And are we treating him unfairly? He's a self-declared expert. He is pushing his expertise very strongly but to many people, me included, it doesn't hang together. Doubts are very reasonable I'd say.

So not unfair to ask him to back up some of his claims of expertise.

I agree 100%. If you set yourself up as an expert and gush with definitive answers and make huge claims about 'YOUR WAY OF DOING THINGS' then you should expect to be challenged and you should be prepared to back up your claims with some evidence and some constructive argument and not just a tirade of bitterness and invective against those who question you or dare to disagree with you.

I hope BS takes a measured approach and proves all his nay sayers wrong. Sadly, I am not sure that is in his character, and he will probably bite back with some suitably acid remarks questioning people's expertise and experience etc.