Best 36-40ft cruiser-racers for... well... cruising

ashtead said:
The choice is probably quite limited in UK market. The boats which will be about most will be Bavaria,beneteau,jeanneau and Hanse. If looking more up budget then x or Arcona. You will find the bow cabin on the smaller arcona tight compared to 410 type. I assume you have ruled out Hallberg and rustler as not sporty enough. If looking I would be tempted by Dehler as as starter . A Dufour is not that quick I suspect but if looking at37 ish they have big galley and fridge but the forecabin is offset which might not appeal . A dream boat for a racer is thought to be an arcona but at a price. You might also consider where you want your mainsheet traveller which might impact choice. If moneyno object an xc42
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Hmmm so I have a bit of a blind spot on Jeanneau.... which are the good ones to look out for please? We looked at a Sun Odyssey 39i which had an amazing cockpit, down below was ok (if a bit flat pack kitchen feeling on the "wood"work edges. But I wasn't convinced by the upper shrouds coming down to the edge of the hull (how does this affect sheeting of headsail/limits size?) and it just felt like it was squirming around in the wind lots - the keel and the mast look quite far forward. Am I imaging things, or....

Re mainsheet traveller, I guess in the cockpit better for sailing, out the way better for children... think I'm open to either arrangement unless convinced differently!
 
Trevelyan said:
Hmmm so I have a bit of a blind spot on Jeanneau.... which are the good ones to look out for please? We looked at a Sun Odyssey 39i which had an amazing cockpit, down below was ok (if a bit flat pack kitchen feeling on the "wood"work edges. But I wasn't convinced by the upper shrouds coming down to the edge of the hull (how does this affect sheeting of headsail/limits size?) and it just felt like it was squirming around in the wind lots - the keel and the mast look quite far forward. Am I imaging things, or....

Re mainsheet traveller, I guess in the cockpit better for sailing, out the way better for children... think I'm open to either arrangement unless convinced differently!
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The rig of the Jeanneau reflects the modern trend towards mainsail biased fractional rigs with non - or just - overlapping foresails. Hence the more forward mast location and outboard shroud plates to allow jib tracks on the coachroof. However I think the Jeanneau might use low friction rings and barber haulers rather than tracks. Very different from the earlier style of performance boats with large overleapping headsaild and inboard shrouds mountings to allow closer sheeting of overlapping headsails.

The modern rigs depend heavily on dedicated offwind sails for good performance all round. The hull mounted shroud plates are simple and robust as the loads are transferred through internal moulded in local hull reinforcements rather than through bulkheads or tie rods. In practice such rigs are much more flexible as most control is through the main rather than cranking a big genoa in and out, losing shape as more rolls are used.
 
Tranona said:
The rig of the Jeanneau reflects the modern trend towards mainsail biased fractional rigs with non - or just - overlapping foresails. Hence the more forward mast location and outboard shroud plates to allow jib tracks on the coachroof. However I think the Jeanneau might use low friction rings and barber haulers rather than tracks. Very different from the earlier style of performance boats with large overleapping headsaild and inboard shrouds mountings to allow closer sheeting of overlapping headsails.

The modern rigs depend heavily on dedicated offwind sails for good performance all round. The hull mounted shroud plates are simple and robust as the loads are transferred through internal moulded in local hull reinforcements rather than through bulkheads or tie rods. In practice such rigs are much more flexible as most control is through the main rather than cranking a big genoa in and out, losing shape as more rolls are used.
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For us, with exactly that rig, it’s ideal for cruising as you don’t require a bodybuider to crank the jib in, and the ma8n is easy to quickly depower should the need arise. Adding a cruising chute to a monohulled cruiser is the logical downwind boost. I wouldn’t buy a different sort of rig.
 
Trevelyan said:
Hmmm so I have a bit of a blind spot on Jeanneau.... which are the good ones to look out for please? We looked at a Sun Odyssey 39i which had an amazing cockpit, down below was ok (if a bit flat pack kitchen feeling on the "wood"work edges. But I wasn't convinced by the upper shrouds coming down to the edge of the hull (how does this affect sheeting of headsail/limits size?) and it just felt like it was squirming around in the wind lots - the keel and the mast look quite far forward. Am I imaging things, or....

Re mainsheet traveller, I guess in the cockpit better for sailing, out the way better for children... think I'm open to either arrangement unless convinced differently!
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As @Tranona explains, wide shrouds mean non overlapping headsails. But honestly this is far superior for a performance boat, especially when sailed by a family as you indicate. Sheeting the jib is a lot, lot easier than grinding in a massive overflapping headsail. As I said before my Dad had a Dufour 40 for years. Before he got ill I'd just about won the argument that we were going to ditch the overlapping jib on that boat in favour of a 100% jib with vertical battens and inhaulers and then a "code" type reaching sail on a short prod and a furler that's only hoisted when required. In my experience with racing boats we'd have been faster in every condition and point of sail with that setup.

The other point is that the wider the shroud base then the lighter the mast can be for a given strength.
 
My impression is the jeaneau DS models might not be sporty enough but I’m sure a 39i would be quicker . We looked at buying a 410 jeaneau back in 2015 but found a few points below we didn’t like that much so chose elsewhere. As for mainsheet we have what is commonly called a German mainsheet which means you can adjust from either side of cockpit from helm position but no mainsheet in cockpit to strangle unwary. The coachroof mounted track is not ideal if small crew numbers/single handed watches to my mind but gives that safety to small crew but you might incur unintentional heading up if not quick to release. We don’t really miss absence of mainsail track but purists prefer for additional controls it gives.
 
flaming said:
As @Tranona explains, wide shrouds mean non overlapping headsails. But honestly this is far superior for a performance boat, especially when sailed by a family as you indicate. Sheeting the jib is a lot, lot easier than grinding in a massive overflapping headsail. As I said before my Dad had a Dufour 40 for years. Before he got ill I'd just about won the argument that we were going to ditch the overlapping jib on that boat in favour of a 100% jib with vertical battens and inhaulers and then a "code" type reaching sail on a short prod and a furler that's only hoisted when required. In my experience with racing boats we'd have been faster in every condition and point of sail with that setup.

The other point is that the wider the shroud base then the lighter the mast can be for a given strength.
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Code sails are usually akin to raping your handicap. But they’re fantastic cruising sails. Ours has acquired the nickname of ‘the turbo’. Unless it’s deep downwind, it’s faster than even our fairly flat cut kite, plus you can squeeze up to about 55 true, using the inhaulers, in light winds. But such is the apparent wind generated, you can only pull that stunt up to about 8kn of wind. It gives us about 75m sq of white sail, effectively. I’m not sure why more cruisers don’t have them.
 
Chiara’s slave said:
........I’m not sure why more cruisers don’t have them.
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The expense and, because many cruisers just want an easy life, they tend not to fly coloured sails or use specialist equipment. My little eye spies many boats on quite long favourable coastal passage who won't raise the mainsail and some not even a sail of any sort.

The OP talks about gentle family cruising in good conditions so he may well value an overlap of some sort. Generally speaking the more quick sailing you require the more compromises have to be made on accommodation and easy cruising. Monohulls described as cruiser/racers are just masquerading if they don't have a lead or composite keel, good ballast ratio and deepish draught.

However, I would be looking at an Elan 36 or the J109 already suggested but short on cabins.

.
 
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As a cruises type of boat we have a coloured sail on a Karver type furler but it’s far easier /quicker to use the genny on a permanent selden furler. It’s fine for a passage back from West Country for the colour sail as the wind returning to Solent tends to favour that sort of passage but for short in Solent hops it’s probably not worth effort unless super light winds . As for using one on a snuffer it probably puts a lot off anyway just dousing the sail .
 
doug748 said:
The expense and, because many cruisers just want an easy life, they tend not to fly coloured sails or use specialist equipment. My little eye spies many boats on quite long favourable coastal passage who won't raise the mainsail and some not even a sail of any sort.

The OP talks about gentle family cruising in good conditions so he may well value an overlap of some sort. Generally speaking the more quick sailing you require the more compromises have to be made on accommodation and easy cruising. Monohulls described as cruiser/racers are just masquerading if they don't have a lead or composite keel, good ballast ratio and deepish draught.

However, I would be looking at an Elan 36 or the J109 already suggested but short on cabins.

.
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A motor boat might suit those folks better.
 
doug748 said:
….. Generally speaking the more quick sailing you require the more compromises have to be made on accommodation and easy cruising. …..
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Not really on many of the examples quoted above - modern Arcona, Salona, X Yact etc have spacious practical interiors, excellent sailing handling systems, retractable bow thrusters etc.
Fast but comfortable.
 
Yes easier to sail our 2015 boat than our previous smaller Bavaria due to advances ,electric winches,self tacker,bow thruster etc and a far more comfortable passage maker (but it’s twice the weight ) . I’m sure an Arcona 410 or xc42 could outsail us but might not be so easy to handle being more frisky .etc . Certainly I think their interiors are up with best in class but at a premium price of course.
 
dunedin said:
Not really on many of the examples quoted above - modern Arcona, Salona, X Yact etc have spacious practical interiors, excellent sailing handling systems, retractable bow thrusters etc.
Fast but comfortable.
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Not really, there are no free rides. Carry more passengers in terms of hull weight, furniture, additional equipment, tophamper and cost cuts - the slower you go.
 
doug748 said:
Not really, there are no free rides. Carry more passengers in terms of hull weight, furniture, additional equipment, tophamper and cost cuts - the slower you go.
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Clearly stripped out race boats will plane faster downwind in a blow. But how often have you overtaken a similar sized Arcona or X Yacht in another boat setup for cruising? Not very often i suspect - i try hard evey time I meet one.
 
dunedin said:
Clearly stripped out race boats will plane faster downwind in a blow. But how often have you overtaken a similar sized Arcona or X Yacht in another boat setup for cruising? Not very often i suspect - i try hard evey time I meet one.
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Well, er… every time we see one. But it’s not as quick to do as your average cruising boat. You can clearly see they are better sailing boats. The NHC list tells the story. One based on real life performance, how quickly boats sail relative to each other mostly in casual club races, ie with the berth cushions, plates and cutlery. We sail like that in club races anyway, way too much hassle to take much off unless the race is a big deal.
 
Tranona said:
The rig of the Jeanneau reflects the modern trend towards mainsail biased fractional rigs with non - or just - overlapping foresails. Hence the more forward mast location and outboard shroud plates to allow jib tracks on the coachroof. However I think the Jeanneau might use low friction rings and barber haulers rather than tracks. Very different from the earlier style of performance boats with large overleapping headsaild and inboard shrouds mountings to allow closer sheeting of overlapping headsails.

The modern rigs depend heavily on dedicated offwind sails for good performance all round. The hull mounted shroud plates are simple and robust as the loads are transferred through internal moulded in local hull reinforcements rather than through bulkheads or tie rods. In practice such rigs are much more flexible as most control is through the main rather than cranking a big genoa in and out, losing shape as more rolls are used.
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rig.png
Here's the arrangement on the Jeanneau 39i.... so it looks like a conventional track, which terminates in line with the lowers, the upper shroud is then out on the gunwale. Ouch my head hurts (showing my lack of experience here!). So it sheets between uppers and lowers, upwind presumably is fine, downwind ?? . I assume the uppers out there limits the extent to which an overlapping headsail can be used, which might have appealed for my brief of good light airs performance?
 
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