Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Brent Swain]

Definition;
Anecdote
Reality and experience which contradicts and disproves one's pet theory.

 

[lpdsn]

No, exacerbation is the right word to describe it.

Don't tell me you print your own dictionaries as well.

 

[rotrax]

Brent-if you are making your blocks from scrap you find around you will never be sure of the grade and quality. If you are happy, fine.

My Harken blocks are more than man enough for their job, which is what matters, not inferior weak crap as you say.

Compared to your home made ones they will be expensive. But not rubbish as you keep telling us.

I wonder what ANY marine Insurance Company would say if a major claim resulted from the failure of your home made gear.

I still maintain you cannot make a block in 20 minutes.

Be nice to see what one looks like.............................................

 

[solent clown]

Don't tell me you print your own dictionaries as well.

Oh please Lord, NOT THAT. We almost share a common language among the English speaking nations. To my shame many of our ex colonial, and now commonwealth bretherin are more proficient than us on our little island with the language that developed here.
Let us not - whatever else is debated here in this thread, let it come to pass that Mr Swain may take it upon himself to lecture us upon the use of the English language.
Boats are boats. Talk crap or opinion about that everyone.
This language is the language of the free, and the free thinking. Join in debate, discuss freely. Twist your words, twist your meaning, be clever with the language, but please for the love of Mike, don't make it up as you go along.
DO NOT TWIST the meaning of words. Do not make your own lexicon, historically they do not go down well.
Engage with humility, humour, and grace, and you will all be heard, and hear more.
There are two ends to every rope, who knows , eventually they might meet at the middle.

Smile, we all have a common passion

 

[lpdsn]

My Harken blocks are more than man enough for their job, which is what matters, not inferior weak crap as you say.

And anyway you buy Harken blocks for the reduced friction. The SWL and breaking load are stated for each type so you just check what matches your requirements. No doubt you can make your own - I made my own replacements for jib cars, just bought some Delrin and took it and a drawing to a bloke with a lathe in his garden shed - but the downside with homemade blocks is much increased friction and as someone who races a lot I hate having to put more grunt into trimming a sail than is necessary.

 

[Robin]

Don't tell me you print your own dictionaries as well.

laser etched into steel plate:biggrin-new::biggrin-new::biggrin-new:

 

[lpdsn]

The trolls are those who only came on this forum after I became active here, and respond mainly to my posts.

I don't have all my drawings in digital form, but will send the ones I have, and photos.
Bob Perry and Smackdaddy, who has been quoting himself here, are my main attackers attacking every single post I have made , on some sites.
Thanks

I've not been able to identify any suspects from that description. I've seen Smackdaddy posting on SA but haven't paid enough attention to him to form an opinion. Bob Perry is a professional yacht designer of many years (decades) standing and appears well respected for his expertise in the bear pit of SA. He posts his own drawings quite frequently. I'm not surprised he has challenged you coming from the point of view of having to do a lot of calculations for his own designs.

 

[A1Sailor]

For inside welding and painting, I have found it easier to breath air thru 24 feet of 1 1/4 inch plastic sump drain hose than thru a filtre, and the hose doesn't plug up. Some have attached it to a surplus gas mask or a standard mask without the filtre. Put the end up wind, and you have zero chance of breathing any fumes. No need to force the air in, not any benefit in doing so.

I don’t mean to hound you but if you breathe through a long pipe/hose in the way you suggest you’d die. Actually the urge to rip the mask off would be too strong and you’d gasp for fresh air and probably wouldn’t die.

Doing what you suggest would mean that you’d be rebreathing your own exhaled air. I’ll let someone else explain.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lon...er-hose-a-person-could-breath-through-on-land

Mmm. Assuming 1.25 inches is the internal diameter of Brent's 24ft hose, the volume is approximately 5.881 litres:

http://www.calculator.net/volume-ca...gthunit=centimeters&cylcal=Calculate#cylinder
So we can assume that he is inhaling from it but not exhaling into it. He'll be exhaling by some other route and inhaling completely fresh air with each breath. It could be as simple as breathing in via his mouth and out via his nose - with the tube between his lips. Pretty cunning, huh?
If he isn't I agree he'd expire since it is physically impossible to have a tidal volume of 5.8 litres. It would be a question of whether he'd lose consciousness due to hypoxia or hypercapnia first.

Even then, the increased work of breathing through a 24ft long 1 1/4 inch tube must be considerable.

Edit:

Most masks, including gas masks have a one way valve in them, so the air can only flow one direction.

I wish I'd seen this before I did the sums.:ambivalence:

 

[john_morris_uk]

I should really wait for Brent to explain gently to you what he meant. I would think it highly unlikely that he is suggesting breathing both in and out through his tube. Do you think that Scuba divers breathe out back into their air bottles?
Maybe you were just being deliberately argumentative?

If Brent was a little more circumspect in his posts it would avoid a lot of confusion. He seemed to “breathe through 24 feet of hose”. And no I’m definitely not trying to be argumentative. I’m waiting for Brent to gently explain anything.

Most masks, including gas masks have a one way valve in them, so the air can only flow one direction.

True, but you only mentioned ‘some people attach the hose to a gas mask’. Perhaps a case of being a little more explicit and ensuring you write what you mean to say unambiguously.

 

[Jonas]

"Perhaps a case of being a little more explicit and ensuring you write what you mean to say unambiguously."
It's not much of an apology, but I'm afraid it's the closest you'll get on here Brent!

 

[john_morris_uk]

"Perhaps a case of being a little more explicit and ensuring you write what you mean to say unambiguously."
It's not much of an apology, but I'm afraid it's the closest you'll get on here Brent!

I’m usually quick to apologise but I need to point out that in this instance no apology was intended.

 

[Jonas]

In this instance I think an apology was deserved though.
The guy is bombastic in his writing style, yet he has undoubtedly built a number of steel boats and doing this without spending vast amounts (relatively speaking). Personally I don't think his understanding of welding chemistry is up to much, but what he has done has worked. To be honest if I had the money for a liferaft there are plenty of other things that I'd spend it on beforehand.
He has wound you up no doubt, but now you're jumping on everything he says and it starts to look personal.
When he said about using a long tube for an air supply, you stated that it wouldn't work. I don't think that you thought through the physics and made assumptions, and got it wrong. Since we know that he actually has done the things he claims (to a greater or lesser extent) then in effect you were calling him a liar.

 

[john_morris_uk]

In this instance I think an apology was deserved though.
The guy is bombastic in his writing style, yet he has undoubtedly built a number of steel boats and doing this without spending vast amounts (relatively speaking). Personally I don't think his understanding of welding chemistry is up to much, but what he has done has worked. To be honest if I had the money for a liferaft there are plenty of other things that I'd spend it on beforehand.
He has wound you up no doubt, but now you're jumping on everything he says and it starts to look personal.
When he said about using a long tube for an air supply, you stated that it wouldn't work. I don't think that you thought through the physics and made assumptions, and got it wrong. Since we know that he actually has done the things he claims (to a greater or lesser extent) then in effect you were calling him a liar.

Perhaps some people think he has done some of the things he says he’s done, but not quite as many as he claims. If he’d done all the things he says he’s done, I humbly suggest he’d not make some of the claims he makes. In fact some of his suggestions and lack of knowledge about navigation betray either blissful ignorance or delusion or just lack of real experience.

I don’t mean it to be personal and I’ve tried several times to suggest ways he might better express himself if he wants to be taken seriously. I’ve also said (several times) that I think he has some real insights and contributions to make.

I know I’m not perfect and I make mistakes, but I hope I admit to them instead of lashing out bombastically and blaming everyone else for not understanding me.

On such a simple matter as a life raft, if I was broke and couldn’t afford one, it wouldn’t stop me going sailing. But I wouldn’t pretend that my boat couldn’t possibly sink and therefore one wasn’t desirable ‘in extremis’. People read these forums who are looking for inspiration and I don’t think it’s responsible to allow sweeping statements that are wrong and sometimes dangerous to go unchallenged.

 

[AndrewB]

People read these forums who are looking for inspiration and I don’t think it’s responsible to allow sweeping statements that are wrong and sometimes dangerous to go unchallenged.

The day that sweeping statements go unchallenged on these forums will be when ....

 

[Uricanejack]

I don’t mean to hound you but if you breathe through a long pipe/hose in the way you suggest you’d die. Actually the urge to rip the mask off would be too strong and you’d gasp for fresh air and probably wouldn’t die.

Doing what you suggest would mean that you’d be rebreathing your own exhaled air. I’ll let someone else explain.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lon...er-hose-a-person-could-breath-through-on-land

I am not a welder. However.

Many years ago. I used to use something called a "smoke helmet". I haven't looked at SOLAS requirments for class 7T ships for over 3 decades. I would not be surprised if they are still required along with a bell and a hand lead line. probably forgotten about in a box under the focsle until a surveyor asks to see it.

They work, quite well. Particularly for confined space rescue. (no tank required,)

It consisted of an old style SCBA negative pressure mask, attached to length of hose of a length I can't recall, usually used with a bellows(hand or foot pump) I have used one with 2 hose length connected together without the bellows being pumped. ( I was a lot younger and fitter)
One way valve in mask air in through hose exhale out through the mask.

Could you use one to weld. Not particularly comfortable but it would work.

Welding gear looks like its pretty uncomfortable anywho

 

[Uricanejack]

I don't know much about Brent. I had never even heard of the guy until a few days ago when this thread had already exceded 40 pages.

Just my impression from this thread and having used google.

Brent is a guy. Kind of like your local handy man, who designed and builds steel boats. For the backyard handy man to build by him or her self. For a low back yard cost.
The boats are of a very simple design. Cut from a single relatively heavy piece of fairly thick mild steel plate.
They have a few longitudinal frames.
The chine adds longitudinal strength.
4500 lbs of lead inside a fairly long steel keel.
A skeg and transom hung rudder.
Displacement 20 000lbs give or take.

They look quite nice.

I don't think the boats are intended to be approved and coded by the MCA, EU, Lloyds, ABS or even TC.

I not a naval architect. Even so my rough guess. The boats are built like brick shit house. Only out of steel.
My GRP 35ft IOR has about the same sise keel and a displacement of about 10500Lbs
My boat is wider, stiffer, lighter, faster. but not as tough.

My rough guess a Brent Swain 36ft boats center of Gravity G is a little bit higher than my C&C 35. Not a lot higher most of the weight is still in the steel hull and keel.
A BS 36 has a fuller deeper hull than my C&C 35.
My rough guess the center of Buoyacy B is a bit lower than my C&C 35

I happened to find a copy of T Cunclifs complete YM book in a 2nd hand book store a couple of days ago 4th edition from 2003.
His stability diagram is almost but not quite right. Its a B not a Z. He may have corrected the typo in later editions. ( 5 bucks, its actualy quite a good book)

If were to do an inclining experiment on a BS boat I could figure out a reasonably estimate of the GM. (M is the metacentric height an imaginary position on the centerline where a verticle line drawn up though B cross the centerline If the vessel is slightly inclined)

B moves to the low side when the vessel is inclined.
And slightly down

So long as M remains above G the boat will remain stable and have a positive righting lever.
If G and M are in the same place stability will be neutral.
If M goes below G it will become unstable.

So My uneducated guessing. based on some simple principles. The lower B will offset some of the disadvantages of the slightly higher G
and The GM of a BS 36 will only a reasonable amount less than my C&C 35.

So my uneducated non naval architects guess. A BS 36 is fairly stable sailing vessel with a stability range comparable to other long keel heavy built blue water type traditional sailing vessels

So my conclusions.

A BS 36 is built like a brick shit house, pretty stable, and probably sails pretty much like any other long keel heavy cruising vessel.

Who needs a naval architect?

PS. I would not use a home made block to lift anything. Unless they get tested and come with a # & certificate.

Mind you Harken blocks don't have # & certificate. Best not lift anything with a harken block.

As long as BS is not lifting stuff with his homemade blocks I don't think he is breaking any WCB or H&S rules on his sailboat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I don't know much about Brent. I had never even heard of the guy until a few days ago when this thread had already exceded 40 pages.

Just my impression from this thread and having used google.

Brent is a guy. Kind of like your local handy man, who designed and builds steel boats. For the backyard handy man to build by him or her self. For a low back yard cost.
The boats are of a very simple design. Cut from a single relatively heavy piece of fairly thick mild steel plate.
They have a few longitudinal frames.
The chine adds longitudinal strength.
4500 lbs of lead inside a fairly long steel keel.
A skeg and transom hung rudder.
Displacement 20 000lbs give or take.

They look quite nice.

I don't think the boats are intended to be approved and coded by the MCA, EU, Lloyds, ABS or even TC.

I not a naval architect. Even so my rough guess. The boats are built like brick shit house. Only out of steel.
My GRP 35ft IOR has about the same sise keel and a displacement of about 10500Lbs
My boat is wider, stiffer, lighter, faster. but not as tough.

My rough guess a Brent Swain 36ft boats center of Gravity G is a little bit higher than my C&C 35. Not a lot higher most of the weight is still in the steel hull and keel.
A BS 36 has a fuller deeper hull than my C&C 35.
My rough guess the center of Buoyacy B is a bit lower than my C&C 35

I happened to find a copy of T Cunclifs complete YM book in a 2nd hand book store a couple of days ago 4th edition from 2003.
His stability diagram is almost but not quite right. Its a B not a Z. He may have corrected the typo in later editions. ( 5 bucks, its actualy quite a good book)

If were to do an inclining experiment on a BS boat I could figure out a reasonably estimate of the GM. (M is the metacentric height an imaginary position on the centerline where a verticle line drawn up though B cross the centerline If the vessel is slightly inclined)

B moves to the low side when the vessel is inclined.
And slightly down

So long as M remains above G the boat will remain stable and have a positive righting lever.
If G and M are in the same place stability will be neutral.
If M goes below G it will become unstable.

So My uneducated guessing. based on some simple principles. The lower B will offset some of the disadvantages of the slightly higher G
and The GM of a BS 36 will only a reasonable amount less than my C&C 35.

So my uneducated non naval architects guess. A BS 36 is fairly stable sailing vessel with a stability range comparable to other long keel heavy built blue water type traditional sailing vessels

So my conclusions.

A BS 36 is built like a brick shit house, pretty stable, and probably sails pretty much like any other long keel heavy cruising vessel.

Who needs a naval architect?

PS. I would not use a home made block to lift anything. Unless they get tested and come with a # & certificate.

Mind you Harken blocks don't have # & certificate. Best not lift anything with a harken block.

As long as BS is not lifting stuff with his homemade blocks I don't think he is breaking any WCB or H&S rules on his sailboat.

All very reasonable.

But you don't go about saying everyone else is wrong and you're right and go on to make spurious claims about how to firefight, how brilliantly your boats sail (they defy the laws of physics if they do) how stupid everyone else is to sail around on GRP boats, how your boat can't possibly sink, your welds never fail, beginners welds never fail, you only need to do a couple of hours of maintenance a year and the paint looks as good as when you applied it twenty years ago etc etc.

I think Brent probably has some really useful things to say, but while he carries on making wildly silly assertions that are so obviously false, and then lashing out at people who point this out, he's not going to be taken seriously.

 

[Uricanejack]

All very reasonable.

But you don't go about saying everyone else is wrong and you're right and go on to make spurious claims about how to firefight, how brilliantly your boats sail (they defy the laws of physics if they do) how stupid everyone else is to sail around on GRP boats, how your boat can't possibly sink, your welds never fail, beginners welds never fail, you only need to do a couple of hours of maintenance a year and the paint looks as good as when you applied it twenty years ago etc etc.

I think Brent probably has some really useful things to say, but while he carries on making wildly silly assertions that are so obviously false, and then lashing out at people who point this out, he's not going to be taken seriously.

I agree.
He doesn't help his own credibility, which is unfortunate. I think his boats pretty much do what it says on the box.

I get the impression. When he gets challenged about his boats he over reacts and says things which are easy to discredit. which is also unfortunate.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I agree.

I get the impression. When he gets challenged about his boats he over reacts and says things which are easy to discredit. which is also unfortunate.

That is only human nature and could be said about anyone who has a pasiniate view on any matter.

I live in South Africa and love it but lots of people think I am crazy because all the danger and killing muging. I could say that same about living in the UK cold weather, terrorist attacks,etc and we always defend our choices. Brent goes overboard which puts peoples back up as he overly criticised their choice which they defend.

I too would like Brent to post a 20 minute video of him making a block. I am sceptical as said before but if Brent can show a method I have never seen before I would be grateful for learning something new.

 

[RichardS]

The day that sweeping statements go unchallenged on these forums will be when ....

I reckon that's there's a bit less "challenging" going on than you imagine. No-one has "challenged" the fact the Brent has posted his email address and that normally attracts a torrent of "challenge".

Richard