SlowlyButSurely
Well-Known Member
Brent,
My post was a question to Solent Clown about the USS Miami incident certainly not a personal insult and not addreesed to you.
Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).
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Brent,
My post was a question to Solent Clown about the USS Miami incident certainly not a personal insult and not addreesed to you.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Fortunately most people can tell the difference between fatuous remarks about Columbus and people who go out on a limb to set new standards and possibilities and downright dangerous advice like, "You don't need a life-raft on a steel boat as it won't sink", and "Fires on steel boats are not a problem as they put themselves out because its easy to close all sources of air by just closing the hatches etc".
(Some fires on some boats might put themselves out by closing the hatches and all ventilation, but its very dangerous to suggest that all fires will go out easily this way and that steel is inherently safe because of this alleged 'fact'.)
When you gain some perspective and are able to have a balanced point of view and not start ranting and raving whenever your convictions are challenged, people might take you more seriously. I'm not holding my breath though.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Thank you for finally answering my question.
I think you may be overstating the advantages that GRP has from decades of marketplace acceptance. I would assert that many buyers are actually quite open minded (or in some cases ignorant, being new to boats) about hull material. Hence aluminium boats are enjoying an increase in popularity.
You then assert that the mass market builder are resistant to change. I'm not so sure about that. The way that Bavaria construct their boats is astonishingly efficient, and reflects years of advancement over the traditional hand crafted approach. Designs have changed radically to take advantage of new materials; many boats now incorporate exotic composites and stiffening frames.
Your final paragraph is more plausible. Sorry to break it to you but most people have to go to work instead of sailing, so most boats don't get used 95% of the time. So for most people, GRP makes sense. I don't think owning a steel boat magically changes any of this, you still need to go to work. So, surely, GRP is the solution for most people?
Brent Swain
N/A
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
It appears that I'm not the only one who thinks that your advice is sometimes misleading and dangerous.
from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...bob-perrys-take-wolfenzees-dream-boat-86.html
`I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.[/QUOTE]
You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.
from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...bob-perrys-take-wolfenzees-dream-boat-86.html
`I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.[/QUOTE]
You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.
Brent Swain
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You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.[/QUOTE]
Your suggestion being that it is dangerous to go to sea in a design which has over 40 years of trouble free cruising, including 4 circumnavigations, Cape Horn to the Aleutians, a single season passage thru the NW passage, 16 days of pounding in big surf on the west coast of Baja, being pulled off thru big surf, pounding for a quarter mile in up to12 ft surf, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral in big surf, both ways ,several hull speed collisions with rocks and steel barges, all with no serious structural damage?
Instead, you suggest it is "safer" to go with designers who's keels fall off, and who's boats suffer frequent structural damage, and leak like sieves, in much milder conditions, designers with no offshore cruising , nor building, nor live aboard ,nor long term maintenance experience?
Seems the only "Dangerous" advice given here is your own,Trump style " false news"
The only lack of credibility here is that of my critics.
Search
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
You will find a site where info is freely exchanged, by people with a lot of experience in the subject at hand, without guys like Smackdaddy, alias whoever, being allowed to sabotage the exchange of info, by to turning it into a trolls picnic. We stick to boat subjects, and altho several of Smackdaddy's troll friends have tried to wreck it, we saw them coming, and saved the site.
Or search
Silas Crosby
or Tagish.
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Brent Swain
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You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.[/QUOTE]
Those quotes from Smackdaddy, are from a guy with only lake sailing and ditch sailing experience, who had such 'Expertise" that he lost his last boat by tying her bow on to a concrete float, with no spring lines. A gale pushed her forward, demolishing the bow, sinking her.
Many of his "Quotes" of me are entirely made up, his words, not mine.
This guy has been stalking me across the internet for years, including personal threats in his postings.
I was kinda hoping that that kind of behavior was not allowed on this site. His quoting of his own made up quotes, which he falsely attributes to me, is consistent with his long track record of personal insults .
I was hoping we could simply discuss and pass on info about boats here, without Smackdaddy sabotaging the entire site, making it useless for the exchange of experience based info, as he has done on so many other sites.
So much for that idea!
If he remains, the discussion will be sabotaged to uselessness , with only those with no experience in the subject ,allowed to participate.
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Whatever the truth behind those quotes (and you need to think carefully about how your remarks come across to the neutral observer) you seriously underestimate the amount of live aboard and cruising experience many of the contributors to this web site have. To my certain knowledge, some of the GRP boat builders in Europe whose boats you often see round the world (Halberg Rassey, Malo, Sweden Yachts etc) have designers and builders who may have sailed more miles than you claim to have sailed, so your rants about plastic boats fall on deaf ears to those in the know.
More specifically, you may have got away with putting out a fire by shutting the hatches, and you may know of one of two other examples, but that’s not a persuasive argument in favour of it as a ‘go to, failsafe method’. Furthermore, you can proclaim the virtues of setting off as a 23 year old ocean cruising bum and surviving without a liferaft, but that’s not a good argument against life rafts per se.
Balance is not following the majority as you so pejoratively put it, but being able to stand back and see the bigger picture.
Some of your advice and experience is valuable but sadly some of it is downright dangerous, and the real sadness is that you can’t see the difference between the two sorts.
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Brent Swain
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The alternative is believing fire can burn without oxygen!
Or that , the strategy which has resulted in boats being gutted by fire, is better than one which put the fires out quickly!
If you have a lot of money and are going in a plastic boat , then buy a liferaft.
If you don't have a lot of money, then don't let lack of one stop you from living the cruising dream . You re still safer at sea than living in and dodging traffic in suburbia.
Cruising in a steel boat without a life raft is many times safer than in a plastic boat with one.
Many ,who abandoned their boats in the 79 Fastnet, to climb into a liferaft were lost ,while the boats were found empty and floating later. Had they not had a life raft to climb into, they would have probably survived.
Or that , the strategy which has resulted in boats being gutted by fire, is better than one which put the fires out quickly!
If you have a lot of money and are going in a plastic boat , then buy a liferaft.
If you don't have a lot of money, then don't let lack of one stop you from living the cruising dream . You re still safer at sea than living in and dodging traffic in suburbia.
Cruising in a steel boat without a life raft is many times safer than in a plastic boat with one.
Many ,who abandoned their boats in the 79 Fastnet, to climb into a liferaft were lost ,while the boats were found empty and floating later. Had they not had a life raft to climb into, they would have probably survived.
Robin
Well-Known Member
No fires on the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race, no steel boats either. I was at sea in the same area with a family crew, not racing, In my then 30ft plastic fantastic and at no time did I ever wish it was a steel tub incapable of going to windward in gale force winds. I carried a life raft but would not have deployed it unless stepping up into it, but no need in my sturdy grp jobby in an area where whales are rare Were you there in 1979 or safe ashore making daft comments from a pacific coast armchair. .
NormanS
Well-Known Member
I am saddened by the level of antagonism and personal abuse on this thread. The type of sailing being discussed is way beyond my personal experience or desire.
I do however know that commercial steel vessels, both large and small, are required to have provision to shut down all engineroom ventilation, by means of metal shutters, in order to starve fires of oxygen.
It might just be that some of those on here who argue the loudest have little practical experience of steel boats.
For the avoidance of doubt, I built a steel yacht some years ago. Most of my boating experience has been with wooden boats, of various construction methods. My present boat is GRP.
I do however know that commercial steel vessels, both large and small, are required to have provision to shut down all engineroom ventilation, by means of metal shutters, in order to starve fires of oxygen.
It might just be that some of those on here who argue the loudest have little practical experience of steel boats.
For the avoidance of doubt, I built a steel yacht some years ago. Most of my boating experience has been with wooden boats, of various construction methods. My present boat is GRP.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I sympathise with your post, as I have worked on commercially built boats and yachts built of steel and you are quite right; the ability to shut down ventilation to the engine and machinery spaces is an essential safety design aspect and one of the first things you do in the event of a fire. However, its the dangerous assertion by Brent that ventilation is easy to cut off quickly and will (therefore) always put the fire out that Brent keeps harping on about that needs to be challenged. Of course a fire starved of oxygen will go out (don't know why he keeps reminding us of this). However its not always as easy to do as he glibly suggests. You may get away with shutting down a yacht, but you might not, as yacht ventilation is complex and often comprehensive. You only need a small amount of air to get in for the fire to carry on burning. And to then add the further dangerous assertion that you don't need to worry about a life raft also needs to be challenged. An uncontrolled fire on a steel yacht will almost certainly sink the yacht. (Hoses eventually burn through as there are bound to be some through hulls not closed off when the fire starts etc.) Earlier in the thread, he made some claims about insulation that nobody with any real knowledge in the industry would permit to be fitted to a commercial vessel.
Its the strange logic of 'It worked for me, therefore it must be a universal truth' that he constantly returns to that is false and you don't need much intelligence to understand how wrong some of his claims are. Glib claims that "You are safer on a steel yacht without a life raft than a GRP yacht with one" don't help with his credibility as an authority. He's perfectly entitled to say, "I feel safer on my steel yacht than I would on a GRP Yacht with a liferaft", but that's a matter of his personal opinion and whilst he's entitled to express it, it certainly doesn't make it true. If he just added, 'in my opinion' to some of his generalisations it would help...
The real pity is that I am sure that he has much wisdom and knowledge to share about steel boat building and live aboard cruising. But in my humble opinion, he needs to learn that there are other opinions and they might be equally valid. In particular he needs to realise that there are lots of people on this forum who have sailed as many miles as he has, some of it on steel boats. For some time I made my living sailing boats (sometimes thousands of miles across oceans) and many of the boats I worked on were steel. It doesn't help his cause when he dismisses any dissension from his set views by suggesting they are from people who don't really go sailing or who have limited experience. Hopefully you can understand how that attitude of his just winds people up.
A lot of people have been very patient with him on these forums and I note that he's been banned from almost all other boating forums because of his attitude. The moderators have kept a close eye on the threads, but the considered response has to be to carry on challenging his more outrageous claims with factual and balanced arguments and hope that anyone seeking advice about steel boats etc will have the common sense to see where the truth is in these matters.
Challenging someones views is not personal abuse. If you see any posts that you think are abusive, please press the report button and we will have a look.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
On this or any other internet forum you just have to form your own opinion of each poster or any advice they give. I've met less than a handful of YBW forumites in real life and have recognised three or four SA anarchists as people I've raced with. Most therefore are complete strangers. Nobody's skills or experience are validated before they can post. There are certainly many out there, IMHO, who have fabricated their expertise and experience to a significant or substantial extent. I'd say that Sailing Anarchy is far worse for that than YBW, but that of course is only my opinion. But over time you see that some posters have the range of experience and expertise that they claim. You see posts from them across a broad spectrum of subjects that show they've been there, done that, and knew what they were doing and you start to consider their opinions seriously. There is just details in their posts that are just different from those who are making it up or exagerating.
So yes, trolling as you're complaining about does go on and there is probably less on YBW than most sites and certainly a lot less than on SA. But it is not just trolls who have pointed out substantial weaknesses in your posts on this and other sites. Many have been experienced people, IMHO, trying to reason with you.
I'm afraid that I tend to take seriously the allegations made on a number of occasions elsewhere that you don't have the experience and expertise you claim. Of course this is just the opinion I've formed and is no more valid than anybody else's opinion. Apart from the frequent "steel boats are magic" message you push beyond all reasonable levels I simply don't see you posting things that make me think you really have been there and done that to the extent you claim.
In the end, as long as you don't ruin threads, the only harm you can do is if you convince some niave reader to do something stupid based on your 'expertise'. Again, that is just my opinion and in any case I have no power to act on it whatever it is other than to discount what you say. That's all.
GTom
Well-Known Member
Steel and GRP both has - by now probably many times repeated... - advantages and disadvantages.
As I preceive the topic:
+Steel:
1. Strong, resistant to bumps even if hit by the edge of a 90% sunk container at night.
2. Usually cheaper to buy and to fix than GRP.
-Steel:
1. The market is very small, especially if you substract DIY boats with lacking corrosion protection.
2. Corrosion protection is of key importance, any bumps and scratces have to be well and fast taken care of.
3. Heavier than the heaviest grp constructions = slow, unless you manage to put on thousands of square feet canvas. Lower weight could be alarming, a 3mm mild steel wall won't protect you any more than standard GRP. Add corrosion -
sometimes from the inside (!) - the situation becomes more critical.
Speaking with steel owners, my sample base of two complained of excessive maintenance. True, it's cheap to weld a single plate on, but a full decent corrosion protection (blasting+coating INSIDE and outside) is just as a big mess as an osmosis peel.
As I preceive the topic:
+Steel:
1. Strong, resistant to bumps even if hit by the edge of a 90% sunk container at night.
2. Usually cheaper to buy and to fix than GRP.
-Steel:
1. The market is very small, especially if you substract DIY boats with lacking corrosion protection.
2. Corrosion protection is of key importance, any bumps and scratces have to be well and fast taken care of.
3. Heavier than the heaviest grp constructions = slow, unless you manage to put on thousands of square feet canvas. Lower weight could be alarming, a 3mm mild steel wall won't protect you any more than standard GRP. Add corrosion -
sometimes from the inside (!) - the situation becomes more critical.
Speaking with steel owners, my sample base of two complained of excessive maintenance. True, it's cheap to weld a single plate on, but a full decent corrosion protection (blasting+coating INSIDE and outside) is just as a big mess as an osmosis peel.
GHA
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts from a liveaboard -
Yes, small market - though a good DIY build has a good chance of better for long term long distance than a factory build - no bolted through the deck, everything welded; no wood attached to metalwork or easily removed for maintenance; interior easily dismantled to check the paint system inside.
Owatrol works fine for a while then half an hour in the morning for a few days to touch up. Easier still, don't ding it - not such a tall order never going into marinas.
Not much of a big deal , you don't get many cruisers saying "Oh for another half knot" but you will get plenty happy with the add comfort & security in a blow that comes with steel. Lots (most?) of cruising boats are heavy anyway.
Done properly there should be no need to get back inside to sand blast, just keep an eye for any paint bubbles and make sure the bilges are always dusty dry. Keep on top of the maintenance little & often it's not so bad.
Regretting little that slip right now with a grinder in hand
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Brent Swain
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Brent Swain
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A few thoughts from a liveaboard -
Yes, small market - though a good DIY build has a good chance of better for long term long distance than a factory build - no bolted through the deck, everything welded; no wood attached to metalwork or easily removed for maintenance; interior easily dismantled to check the paint system inside.
Owatrol works fine for a while then half an hour in the morning for a few days to touch up. Easier still, don't ding it - not such a tall order never going into marinas.
Not much of a big deal , you don't get many cruisers saying "Oh for another half knot" but you will get plenty happy with the add comfort & security in a blow that comes with steel. Lots (most?) of cruising boats are heavy anyway.
Done properly there should be no need to get back inside to sand blast, just keep an eye for any paint bubbles and make sure the bilges are always dusty dry. Keep on top of the maintenance little & often it's not so bad.
Regretting little that slip right now with a grinder in hand
Great post !! Well said!
Nice to see a post on this subject from someone who actually knows something about the subject, to offset those from people who know nothing about it.
Brent Swain
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Much cheaper to build than plastic, steel for a 36 being $9K ,as opposed to many, many times that for plastic . Can be built outside, drastically reducing the cost of a building site. No mold or fairing needed, eliminating a huge expense.
Around here, it is the commercially built steel boats which are mostly , totally lacking in adequate corrosion protection, especially inside. Amateurs usually do a much better job, in that department.
I read an article in Metal Boat Quarterly, by a couple who were cruising in Florida and the West Indies. Their 3/16th inch hull had corrosion behind the head, where it was constantly wet, and could not be properly painted.They said that bare steel , in the tropics, took 15 years to rust thru the 3/16th plate
(roughly 5 mm).
No, it doesn't rust thru quickly . Nor do bare steel railroad tracks.
Anyone seen them painted?
Search Silas Crosby, and you will see that he took 18 days from Cabo to Hawaii, and 21 from Hawaii to BC, the first half, hard on the wind. The last couple of times I sailed from Hawaii to BC, it took 23 days , in a heavily loaded, steel 31 foot twin keeler . Definitely not slow, and definitely not the 2 knots someone worked it out to be, ( their math not mine).
On the origami site, Opus Paul, who has been cruising one of my 36 footers in the SW Pacific since the 90's, mentioned sailing over 1,000 miles to windward in 6 days, on several occasions, not the first guy to do it on one of my 36 footers.
Definitely not slow.
Put 1000 lbs in a heavy boat, and it is a much smaller percentage increase in total weight, than the same weight in a much lighter boat.
I have avoided the big mess and expense of sandblasting, by buying my steel already shotblasted and cold galvanizing zinc primed, at the supplier.
I built mine 33 years ago (after pulling together 10 origami steel boats for others) The paint is 97% as good as the day I first painted her .
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