Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Brent Swain]

BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

Me on my first boat, Robinson's Cove, Moorea, French Polynesia 1973.

 

[Brent Swain]

BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

My current boat, Hilo Hawaii, 2000

 

[Brent Swain]

BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

The fleet in La Paz , Mexico 1989 . Right to left , my boat ,a Colvin, and Eclectus, a sistership to my boat, last seen in England.

 

[Brent Swain]

BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

Leaving Aitutaki , Cook islands, in my current boat, 2,000.

 

[Brent Swain]

Thanks for that.
I looked at that link, and found it fascinating. I had never heard of the Origami build method before, although I suppose I have done something similar, on a smaller scale, when building little plywood dinghies.

I built a steel yacht some years ago, a 10.5m Allan Pape design. It was much more laborious, being built with frames, then round bar chines, and then plated. I completed all the steelwork, the shotblasting, and the painting, but before completing the fitting-out, I was given an offer that I couldn't refuse, so I never actually sailed her. I would vouch for her strength. I would have thought that she was just about at the lower size limit for steel.

Yes, mirror class dinghies were built this way since the 60's It is simply stitch and glue, using 8 ft by 36 ft steel plates. When Paul built his 36 Opus in the 90s, there were plenty of others building steel boats by more traditional methods, When they saw how Paul built his , using origami methods, they all said it would have saved them about a year's work.
I have pulled together 36 ft steel hull, working with the owner, in two days, and the shell; hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit , keel , rudder and skeg, in a week.
The first origami boat I built, a 26 to my design, in 1980 was very successful . One sailed from BC to Australia.
I'm not surprised someone scooped your boat. Friends ,who have asked for a quote for my 36, from commercial builders ,have been quote a quarter million dollars for a hull and decks alone, which I have done for $17K.

 

[Brent Swain]

What's so great about cupro-nickel, Roger ? </Genuine question.>

Boo2

Zero corrosion, no antifouling needed, ever, many of the benefits of a welded metal hull, with almost all welded down never leak deck fittings,and thru hulls. Slightly softer than steel, and horrendously expensive.
One guy I sold plans to in Indonesia was planning on using it.

 

[rotrax]

Glad I got away early from the narrow minded illusion that plastic boats, in marinas ,while the owner goes to work for decades to pay for them, and stock, high priced, off the shelf gear, bought on borrowed time, is the only option, an illusion so many still try to impose here.
As I point out in my book, you can judge the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it. Had I done things the narrow minded, "groupthink approved" way, I would have got the same results they had, sell 40 hours a week of your life to get free at age 65. No way would I have enjoyed that as much as semi retiring in my mid 20s.
You obviously have not been reading my posts ,before commenting on them ( (Like many of my critics).
For someone who is boatless, I highly recommend buying a stock plastic boat, which are incredibly cheap around here. Most of my clients have been there, done that. I certainly would, if I were boatless, until I could get into a good steel boat. After a cold, condensation soaked winter living aboard in BC, under a leaky deck ,they cant wait to get into the warm, dry comfort and peace of mind a new steel boat alone can give them. Their choice. Not all of them, nor any of them, would rather spend their lives racing motor bikes, as you so narrow mindedly suggest.
Time you got away from that illusion.
Your goofy, fragile , pretentious looking blocks would look stupid, and totally out of place, on my workboat solid priorities, full time cruiser.
My way has got me semi retired to cruise mostly full time since my mid 20's and my posts are for those who seek that outcome ,not for those who would rather spend their lives working and racing motorbikes, as you imply.
Touche!

As always Brent, you miss the point.

I am not trying to convince people to go motorbike racing-especially the types of racing I did.

Your ambition, which you have achieved, appears to be builing your own boat and sailing in exotic locations.

Good for you. Well done.

My ambition, which I also achieved, was to race motorbikes at a high level.

I started with a burning desire, no money but skills with hand tools.

Probably a bit like you. Life for me has been a learning curve, sometimes very steep.

Your situation might be very different if you had family commitments, aged parents to look after, bussiness or work pressures to cope with.

Your lifestyle is your choice. It might be a dream for many, but the relativly few living it means it is not a practical choice for most.

You have an evenly balanced personality.

You have a chip on both shoulders.................................

 

[rotrax]

[QUOTE
Your goofy, fragile , pretentious looking blocks would look stupid, and totally out of place, on my workboat solid priorities, full time cruiser.
[/QUOTE]


You really have no idea what my blocks are capable of, do you?

In 15 years of sailing, some of it challenging, I have not had a block fail.

The boats I prefer have overspeced standing and running rigging and a modest rig.

Regular inspection and preventive maintenance is carried out bi-annually.

Cant see the point of your "tie it between two cars and drive them away to see which one breaks" test.

The blocks on my boat are more than adequate for the maximum loads that the rig can apply in the worst possible conditions.

I dont have a workboat, but a nice motorsailer.

But, make no mistake, if I did, the gear would be up to the job.

Even if I could not be arsed to make them myself.

I'm having too much fun hanging out with the Grandchildren to waste time doing that!

You do things your way, I and many-probably most-other sailors will carry on with what suits us.

That is, buying a readily available boat and having fun using it.

The fact that in your often stated opinion we are misguided marina dwellers who never do anything is a matter of supreme indifference to me.

I'm having fun sailing-is not that the idea?

Over to you...........................

 

[Kelpie]

I'm just curious about what Mr Swain is trying to achieve on this forum. If he is attempting to promote the benefits of steel, I don't think it's working. I certainly feel far more sceptical about steel now than I did before I started reading this thread. This had nothing to do with the supposed pro plastic mafia, and everything to do with Mr Swain. He is shooting himself in the foot.

It is hard to persuade people using anecdotes. Not because we don't believe that these incidents happened (an anecdote is not necessarily an untruth, by the way, and I for one do not doubt that his stories are real), but because anecdotes describe an incoherent series of incidents from which it is hard to establish a full and reliable picture. When you present information in this way, people find it hard to trust. They don't think you are lying, but they don't feel they are getting the full picture.

 

[rotrax]

Glad I got away early from the narrow minded illusion that plastic boats, in marinas ,while the owner goes to work for decades to pay for them, and stock, high priced, off the shelf gear, bought on borrowed time, is the only option, an illusion so many still try to impose here

The above shows your lack of knowlege and perception. No one, no one at all, has ever tried to impose the above on me.

There have ALWAYS been alternatives to buying stock boats and chandlers supplies, and for some, like you, there always will be.

But dont you dare patronise hard working family men and women who cannot enjoy the life you do for various reasons.

If we accept your view about the superior qualities of steel boats, dont challenge it in any way, you still piss me-and no doubt many others-off big time by suggesting we are all getting ripped off unless we do it your way.

I understand hi-tech design, materials and engineering theory and practice.

I have no doubt whatsoever that I could build a simple and strong steel boat and go sailing around in far flung exotic places.

BUT- I dont want to. And at my time of life, having lived on the edge of survival and distaster for so many years doing what-please excuse the terrible pun-floated my boat, I want to enjoy another pastime.

So you perhaps can get the measure of my abilities, I do ALL work on my boats, except antifouling. Again, I cant be arsed, and I can afford it.

I can afford it because instead of paying 12,000 Pounds Stirling for a Westerbeke 8KW Genset, plus installation charges, I got an ebay bargain, renovated and installed it for a total outlay of 1600 Pounds Stirling. Used all last cruise, 5 months, never missed a beat.

You are not the only practical mechanic/builder/marine engineer who uses these pages, but you are among the most narrow minded.

I dont believe I am the first to notice that feature of your opinions.......................................

 

[co256]

It does not surprise me in the least that he advocates “opting out” of society’s “normal” way of living a life.

Frankly, with his attitude toward the opinion of others being “wrong” unless it falls perfectly in line with his own, he has nicely backed himself in to a distant corner of society where he is left with no option BUT to opt out!

I have previously received a warning from a moderator of this forum for expressing my frustration with this obnoxiously arrogant sod...

Have an opinion by all means but recognise that it is founded entirely on your own rather limited experience of life, that there is nothing remotely humble about your opinion and that yours is no more or less valid than the opinion of anyone else!

 

[solent clown]

Thanks.
When a boat survives a 16 days pounding on a Baja lee shore in big surf, it is a proven "FACT" that it is strong enough to survive such punishment . When one pounds across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf , it is a "FACT' that it has proven strong enough to survive such punishment. Ditto all the other survival cases mentioned. Discounting them as "anecdotes" is like saying the "FACT" that they survived , is irrelevant , compared to armchair speculation.
These "FACTS"clearly demonstrate the irrelevance of bulkheads .In FACT bulkheads would increase the shear load on the hull plate at that point, increasing the chance of holing the plate there, especially if the plate was thinner, to compensate for the extra weight of framing.
My 36 has 4 -3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch angles across the twin keels, from the chine to the tank top, which is considerably stronger than the centreline. Can you show me a 36 ft twin keeler with a stronger arrangement?
What would you suggest, which is stronger?
When someone initially asked about the suitability of a steel boat in the tropics someone instantly began attacking all steel boats with misinformation, implying that plastic was the only reasonable option. My posts are a response to that misinformation campaign . Lives have been lost, due to such misinformation about steel boats, by plastic advocates, who have no hands on experience with steel cruising boats.
When questioned about my cruising experience, I posted photographic proof of the many Pacific crossings I have done , which have been deleted, here and on other sites, appearantly, so as to sustain the myth of my "claimed" (by others) lack of experience .

A man in a field with a hammer and a stick welder is not the sum of all knowledge chap, but you have something to offer none the less.
Real world experience is always good to hear. As well as being a clown I am a very highly qualified mechanical engineer who worked for the MOD, and NATO. My job began as experimenting on equipment to assess it's repair ability, weaknesses, and to write manuals and lecture in the field of battle damage repair. Years of that experience led me into accident investigation involving all equipments across the whole of the HM armed forces, and beyond where knowledge could be shared. That in turn led to involvement in defence procurement. I do my own thing nowadays, but I am still involved as a consultant - you can see me this March in Cardiff at the DPRTE.
There are a lot of other highly qualified engineers on here, not all deskbound either, and we are all interested in real world experience and the exchange of ideas.
If you were a little less combative and evangelical, and a little more collegiate in your philosophy you might help the sum of human knowledge, and maybe gain some useful tips yourself.
These forums are about that after all, sharing a passion, and furthering knowledge.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Setting Brent Swain to "ignore" improves the quality of this thread immeasurably. Just like not opening the front door to the religious sects who pavement bash...

 

[Brent Swain]

As always Brent, you miss the point.

I am not trying to convince people to go motorbike racing-especially the types of racing I did.

Your ambition, which you have achieved, appears to be builing your own boat and sailing in exotic locations.

Good for you. Well done.

My ambition, which I also achieved, was to race motorbikes at a high level.

I started with a burning desire, no money but skills with hand tools.

Probably a bit like you. Life for me has been a learning curve, sometimes very steep.

Your situation might be very different if you had family commitments, aged parents to look after, bussiness or work pressures to cope with.

Your lifestyle is your choice. It might be a dream for many, but the relativly few living it means it is not a practical choice for most.

You have an evenly balanced personality.

You have a chip on both shoulders.................................

I am not trying to convince people to drop everything and go cruising on a shoe string budget, as you falsely imply, just giving info on how I managed to do it, and that can be done, without having to be rich,for those who seek that route . Seems I am one of the few who have been providing that info on many sites.
Your posts clearly demonstrate that some of us thoroughly enjoy building things for ourselves, and buying them would amount to paying others to have all our fun for us .Some just don't get that ,never will.
One thing some cruisers have missed while cruising is the projects. Sounds like you would too. Wish I had figured out my welder sooner. Could have helped a lot of cruisers with it. It is not exclusively a steel boat tool.
Family commitments are often a choice, ( there is no world shortage of people, no need to make more) as are business and work pressures. We share responsibility for our aged father, but until recently, he did a god job of looking after himself .That is a matter of sheer luck. The rest is choice.

 

[Brent Swain]

Setting Brent Swain to "ignore" improves the quality of this thread immeasurably. Just like not opening the front door to the religious sects who pavement bash...

For those who don't want the benefit of decades of building ,designing, living aboard ,maintaining and full time cruising, on a minimal budget, in a steel boat. On sites I have been banned from, the discussion has turned into one restricted to those who have little or no knowledge of the subject .
That benefits no one, except those who seek to deceive.

 

[rotrax]

I am not trying to convince people to drop everything and go cruising on a shoe string budget, as you falsely imply, just giving info on how I managed to do it, and that can be done, without having to be rich,for those who seek that route . Seems I am one of the few who have been providing that info on many sites.
Your posts clearly demonstrate that some of us thoroughly enjoy building things for ourselves, and buying them would amount to paying others to have all our fun for us .Some just don't get that ,never will.
One thing some cruisers have missed while cruising is the projects. Sounds like you would too. Wish I had figured out my welder sooner. Could have helped a lot of cruisers with it. It is not exclusively a steel boat tool.
Family commitments are often a choice, ( there is no world shortage of people, no need to make more) as are business and work pressures. We share responsibility for our aged father, but until recently, he did a god job of looking after himself .That is a matter of sheer luck. The rest is choice.

The most readable and balanced reply so far. I have great respect for what you have achieved in building and using your boats.

Of course life is a choice, driven by personal circumstances, education and that indefinable thing inside some of us that make us move away from the normal 9 to 5 job, marriage, morgage and kids.

I managed both-an exciting motor sport career plus the job, house and family.

I remember a financial advisor checking our pensions provision many years ago. He said that considering the amount of money that had passed through our hands over the last thirty years he was surprised that we had not made more provision for our old age. The reply shocked him.

" Well " we both said " We did not know for sure we would still be around this long "

Yes, I get a great kick out of making and building stuff. Job satisaction, its why I decided to fix antique motorbikes for a living. You have to make a lot of stuff-the spares do not exist any more. I have cast and machined pistons, made valves, cast bronze brackets for brake levers and using only a simple lathe and a copy of " the amateurs lathe " taught myself machine work.

But, that is behind me. We pissed our money away on our lovely boat and live on it each UK summer. We will not get what it cost back, and if I could not do what I can do myself we definitly could not afford to keep it.

Our physical problems mean we may only have a few more years sailing left in us. So, we are getting on and doing it. Making a block to save a hundred quid is not worth the candle-or the time-if we need a new one, we will buy one.

Harken would no doubt like your opinions on their products. They might tell you a few home truths that you have not thought of regarding world wide stock and supply to the millions of users who cant or dont make their own.

I never suggested that you are trying to get people to adopt your lifestyle, the same as I dont expect others to risk their lives on the track. But in many of your post you overwhelmingly patronised those who chose a boat made from any other material than your chosen one, and who bought GRP boats and " off the shelf " parts.

Many dont have our skills. Many can afford shop stuff. Many cant, but because of the first, have no choice but to buy it.

They dont deserve your harsh words implying they are gullible and are being ripped off.

To sum up, we all make life choices. Many choose a partner, home and children before a boat. Some manage both. Others, self sufficient in skills build a boat and sod off into the sunset.

They all have equal value, none are lesser than the others.

IMHO, of course.................................

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

And another thing: steel boats show up very well on radar.

 

[Robin]

And another thing: steel boats show up very well on radar.

TRue,just so long as the whales and icebergs have radar.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

And another thing: steel boats are less vulnerable in the event of a lightning strike.

 

[solent clown]

And another thing: steel boats are less vulnerable in the event of a lightning strike.

But they are terrible in the event of an attack of killer alien magnets