Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

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When I was first looking to purchase a Yacht I had a quick look at a steel boat. It looked a reasonable purchase, until I found out it was DIY welded.
As I could not check the quality of the welds and it was made outside in the UK I did not even consider purchasing it.

The quality of the welds was the real doubt for me. Plus knowing it hade not been made is a nice dry country so the plates and welds would have started to corrode before there would have been chance to paint it did not help.
 
Mr Swain, thanks for your reply in another thread about your alternator welder. You know chap you come in for a lot of stick, and most of that is due to the way you communicate. Why don't you just learn to post pics, a picture speaks a thousand words. I had a google around, there are whole websites with sections dedicated to your infamy.
However down the page are others of people who have built some of your designs. The site below is excellent and informative.
This "origami" method is very interesting indeed and looks easier to corrosion proof than a framed hull. I do have some doubts looking at that pic on the bilge keel load spreading through the hull, and the lack of bulkheads to act as sheer panels within the hull. Neverthless I can see the attraction of building a small boat this way.
Very clever and simple methodology. So please in future when you say something, provide some pics, or a link to something to add context to what you are trying to say. It may serve to close the credibility gap, which would be good for everyone :encouragement:
It is OK to disagree, fine to go against conventional wisdom, some of the greatest leaps have been made by going against the grain, but please leave room for other perspectives, and try to answer questions with facts not anecdotes.
You have valuable something to offer. Talk about and show more of your constructions, it is all genuinely interesting, and actually doing so may make converts of some of us yet.

If you do ever come over here, look me up and I will take you to see a proper hull, 27ft long, 60 odd tons, and around 1200 horsepower.

Here is that link to a Swain boat build, interesting

https://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/i-5wDdZgF
 
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NormanS said:
What does that post contribute to the sum of human knowledge? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

About as much as yours possibly:p 360 plus posts to a simple question from the Originator of the thread and that probably was never answered. because it soon degenerated into a pissing contest from Brent against grp boats or indeed anything he didn't design or build.. IN the midst of it all he makes dangerous claims that his boats are self extinguishing as well as whale proof and thus any user need not carry a life raft or other means of escape. I wonder if they are also radiation proof for sailing near the Koreas.? He has some good points to make but wrecks his case by a constant assault on anthing that differs from his own narrow and usually anecdotal views.

WE AE currently in the market for a new live aboard and my searches initially included ALL construction materials including steel but no more, so in my case he has done steel a disservice. He sneers at non-steel boats as being marina caravans that never get used or never go offshore and rejects any contrary point of view, makes claims of low maintenance times that are plainly seen exaggerations.at least on any boat that does leave harbour.

Conversations and discussions should be more than one way or nobody is listening aside from the preacher man ( no not JM)

Such views as I have are repeated around forums worldwide where he has antagonised pretty much everyone to the extent of being banned. Brent SWain's biggest enemy is.... Brent Swain

NOW WAS THAT A BETTER RESPONSE contributing to human knowledge:confused:? . . ..
 
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solent clown said:
Mr Swain, thanks for your reply in another thread about your alternator welder. You know chap you come in for a lot of stick, and most of that is due to the way you communicate. Why don't you just learn to post pics, a picture speaks a thousand words. I had a google around, there are whole websites with sections dedicated to your infamy.
However down the page are others of people who have built some of your designs. The site below is excellent and informative.
This "origami" method is very interesting indeed and looks easier to corrosion proof than a framed hull. I do have some doubts looking at that pic on the bilge keel load spreading through the hull, and the lack of bulkheads to act as sheer panels within the hull. Neverthless I can see the attraction of building a small boat this way.
Very clever and simple methodology. So please in future when you say something, provide some pics, or a link to something to add context to what you are trying to say. It may serve to close the credibility gap, which would be good for everyone :encouragement:
It is OK to disagree, fine to go against conventional wisdom, some of the greatest leaps have been made by going against the grain, but please leave room for other perspectives, and try to answer questions with facts not anecdotes.
You have valuable something to offer. Talk about and show more of your constructions, it is all genuinely interesting, and actually doing so may make converts of some of us yet.

If you do ever come over here, look me up and I will take you to see a proper hull, 27ft long, 60 odd tons, and around 1200 horsepower.

Here is that link to a Swain boat build, interesting

https://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/i-5wDdZgF
Click to expand...

Thanks.
When a boat survives a 16 days pounding on a Baja lee shore in big surf, it is a proven "FACT" that it is strong enough to survive such punishment . When one pounds across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf , it is a "FACT' that it has proven strong enough to survive such punishment. Ditto all the other survival cases mentioned. Discounting them as "anecdotes" is like saying the "FACT" that they survived , is irrelevant , compared to armchair speculation.
These "FACTS"clearly demonstrate the irrelevance of bulkheads .In FACT bulkheads would increase the shear load on the hull plate at that point, increasing the chance of holing the plate there, especially if the plate was thinner, to compensate for the extra weight of framing.
My 36 has 4 -3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch angles across the twin keels, from the chine to the tank top, which is considerably stronger than the centreline. Can you show me a 36 ft twin keeler with a stronger arrangement?
What would you suggest, which is stronger?
When someone initially asked about the suitability of a steel boat in the tropics someone instantly began attacking all steel boats with misinformation, implying that plastic was the only reasonable option. My posts are a response to that misinformation campaign . Lives have been lost, due to such misinformation about steel boats, by plastic advocates, who have no hands on experience with steel cruising boats.
When questioned about my cruising experience, I posted photographic proof of the many Pacific crossings I have done , which have been deleted, here and on other sites, appearantly, so as to sustain the myth of my "claimed" (by others) lack of experience .
 
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Mister E said:
When I was first looking to purchase a Yacht I had a quick look at a steel boat. It looked a reasonable purchase, until I found out it was DIY welded.
As I could not check the quality of the welds and it was made outside in the UK I did not even consider purchasing it.

The quality of the welds was the real doubt for me. Plus knowing it hade not been made is a nice dry country so the plates and welds would have started to corrode before there would have been chance to paint it did not help.
Click to expand...

I weld chine, horizontal parts of the centeline, tank top, hull deck joints, deck cabin side joints, and most horizontal welds, with 1/8th inch 7024 at 225 amps. (Jet rod)
The cabin side top, cockpit, wheelhouse, rudder ,and most overhead ,I weld with 1/8th inch 6011 at around 90 amps. Heavier overhead and uphand ,chines keels , transom ,centreline, skeg etc , I weld with 5/32 inch 6011 at around 125 amps. Do that , and you will never have a weld break. None of mine, nor those of my clients, mostly first time welders have ever broken, despite them having endured some extreme torture tests, over the last 40 years.
You guys have metric equivalents on your side of the pond.
When I start the hull for a new client, I have always let them weld the loops on, for the comealongs to hook up to. It is usually the first time they have ever picked up a stinger in their lives. After the hull is together, I give them a sledge hammer, and have them try break them off. They bend them back and forth many times, the sweat pouring down their faces. When they finally break, it inevitably breaks the steel well above the weld. The weld, by a first time welder, has never broken. Then I suggest that they think of how that would compare to a copper fastening in a wooden boat every six inches.
Then I ask "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds?"
"NO WAY" is the inevitable reply.
I believe the key to learning is encouragement and confidence, not discouragement. Most become skillful metal workers , capable of solving their own problems. Unlike some, I have no interest in promoting their lack of confidence, as a make work project for me.
People doing a lot of wire feed welding on boats, have said that the smaller .035 wire doesn't get enough heat for a reliable weld, and prefer the bigger wire. It's easier to get a bad weld with wire ,much harder to screw up with stick.
If you ever come over here, I will show you some proper hulls, some of the most well proven steel boats ,fair as any plastic boat, with zero filler of any kind, and the most enthusiastic owners you will ever meet.
 
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Robin said:
No fires on the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race, no steel boats either. I was at sea in the same area with a family crew, not racing, In my then 30ft plastic fantastic and at no time did I ever wish it was a steel tub incapable of going to windward in gale force winds. I carried a life raft but would not have deployed it unless stepping up into it, but no need in my sturdy grp jobby in an area where whales are rare Were you there in 1979 or safe ashore making daft comments from a pacific coast armchair. .:p
Click to expand...

Were you ever at sea in a steel boat, colliding with something heavy and solid. in the night ? Were you there when one of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days on a Baja lee shore in up to 12 ft surf? Where you there when they pulled her off thru 12 ft surf ,being lifted and dropped every wave for 1/4 mile? Were you there when one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf? Were you there when they pulled her back over that reef ,suffering only cosmetic damage?
Or were you sitting in a plastic tub somewhere, making daft comments about steel boats?
 
NormanS said:
I am saddened by the level of antagonism and personal abuse on this thread. The type of sailing being discussed is way beyond my personal experience or desire.
I do however know that commercial steel vessels, both large and small, are required to have provision to shut down all engineroom ventilation, by means of metal shutters, in order to starve fires of oxygen.
It might just be that some of those on here who argue the loudest have little practical experience of steel boats.
For the avoidance of doubt, I built a steel yacht some years ago. Most of my boating experience has been with wooden boats, of various construction methods. My present boat is GRP.
Click to expand...

You are right. If we had those who are making the loudest comments, give us a run down of their steel boat building and cruising experience, it would put things in perspective .
Or, one could go to the origami boats site, Low Cost Voyaging , and Cruiser Log, to see how smoothly things go, when the armchair experts are not making every attempt to provoke and attack me.
 
Brent Swain said:
rotrax said:
When a friend I met in the Marquesas in 77 ended up teaching offshore cruising, he said he ended up quoting me a lot. When I asked "What quote" ,
he said ;
"Brent, when I said you have a great lifestyle, you said" Anyone can live it, if they want to."
I am not rich ,so what lets me do it, that others can not? Excuses, or simply not really wanting to do it. I'm reminded of an old couple I met in New Zealand. A young guy, just out of an expensive car, expensively dressed, would walk up, and say;
"That's what I have always wanted to do>"
Al would say;
"You are younger than us, and have more money than we have ever had . You are not doing it . Why? Because you don't want to, or to you would be doing it, period!"
I have never claimed that everyone could do it, just that anyone of us could. Starting the planing which makes it possible , starts young. I started that in my teens, avoiding the road blocks.
Anyone with any ability with tools can build my blocks in minutes. A block is an extremely simple device. Build your own frigging blocks.I have better things do than adult day care.Tie them in a loop to a Harken, between two vehicles, and drive til one breaks. No way will the tiny bits of metal holding a Harken together be stronger than an inch and a quarter of 3/16th aluminium, or a 3/8th inch stainless bolt be weaker than the pins in a Harken.
A fire denied oxygen will go out, regardless of who stops the oxygen. No magic there.
"Closed minded" is simply doing and thinking what everyone else thinks ,without questioning anything, or attacking any suggested new way of doing things ,which is exactly what you advocate.
Wanna see close minded? Look in a mirror!
People who cant build or repair anything, because they never tried, have trouble comprehending that some of us actually enjoy self reliance,and the peace of mind it gives us. In remote areas, they often become "adult day care" projects for us.

I hear some Scandinavian countries are banning the import of things which cant be repaired, and teaching youth how to do repairs, a long overdue cultural shift. Could produce far better sailors too.
Click to expand...

Brent, when it comes to fixing stuff that needs fixing, you would want me in your corner. I have ALL the skills including foundry work and metal hardening. Restoring antique motorbikes taught me many of those skills plus 45 years of racing motorbikes all over the world.

You are right, anyone can choose to have your lifestyle.

But, like me they might choose to get their rocks off doing something else. For me, dealing with the toughest and most dangerous and demanding racetracks in the world on a high powered motorbike did it.

But I dont bang on all day about it and suggest that my way is the only way, or that my chosen motorbike is the only one.

I came to sailing late in life, 55 years old. During the 15 years First Mate and I have covered more NM's than many who have spent a lifetime sailing, in some of the toughest coastal sailing to be found anywhere.

All in GRP yachts, bar a bit in Wellington Harbour in our steel Hartley.

I am proud of my boat, and one of your blocks would look like shit on it.

Horses for courses.

I can design, build, use and be successfull on motorbikes I have built in my workshop. At speeds in excess of 150MPH 35 years ago-be 200 MPH now.

My machines had to pass the toughest tech inspection in Motorcycle racing. They always did. The IOM TT Circuit is not for duffers. And it was not, by a long chalk, the most dangerous circuit I performed on. The fastest, but not the most dangerous.

I retired from bike racing in September 2008. A few years earlier First Mate and I looked for a replacement pastime-she was a racer too.

It was obvious a game of bowls or a round of golf would not fill the gap left by a high adrenaline motor sport, but sailing had the elements that might, so we took it on. So for its been mostly great.

You must get away from the illusion that your way of sailing and your steel boat is the only way. Also get away from the definate illusion that GRP boats are NFG.

I can assure you-more GRP yachts have circumnavigated than steel ones-one in just over a month................................

All boats are good. Some are more suitable for DIY builing and some tasks than others.

But, if GRP boats were as crap as you keep suggesting, the media would be full of GRP boat disasters.

As it is not, you are perhaps wrong in your views.
Click to expand...
 
john_morris_uk said:
I sympathise with your post, as I have worked on commercially built boats and yachts built of steel and you are quite right; the ability to shut down ventilation to the engine and machinery spaces is an essential safety design aspect and one of the first things you do in the event of a fire. However, its the dangerous assertion by Brent that ventilation is easy to cut off quickly and will (therefore) always put the fire out that Brent keeps harping on about that needs to be challenged. Of course a fire starved of oxygen will go out (don't know why he keeps reminding us of this). However its not always as easy to do as he glibly suggests. You may get away with shutting down a yacht, but you might not, as yacht ventilation is complex and often comprehensive. You only need a small amount of air to get in for the fire to carry on burning. And to then add the further dangerous assertion that you don't need to worry about a life raft also needs to be challenged. An uncontrolled fire on a steel yacht will almost certainly sink the yacht. (Hoses eventually burn through as there are bound to be some through hulls not closed off when the fire starts etc.) Earlier in the thread, he made some claims about insulation that nobody with any real knowledge in the industry would permit to be fitted to a commercial vessel.

Its the strange logic of 'It worked for me, therefore it must be a universal truth' that he constantly returns to that is false and you don't need much intelligence to understand how wrong some of his claims are. Glib claims that "You are safer on a steel yacht without a life raft than a GRP yacht with one" don't help with his credibility as an authority. He's perfectly entitled to say, "I feel safer on my steel yacht than I would on a GRP Yacht with a liferaft", but that's a matter of his personal opinion and whilst he's entitled to express it, it certainly doesn't make it true. If he just added, 'in my opinion' to some of his generalisations it would help...


Challenging someones views is not personal abuse. If you see any posts that you think are abusive, please press the report button and we will have a look.
Click to expand...

The trick is to make a boat easily sealed, in the design and building stage. It is the old adage 'Keep it simple!"
Uncontrolled fire? How do you control it ?Seal the oxygen out. Nothing simpler!
A discussion on a fire port, to put an extinguisher up to, and flood the boat with CO2, has been recently discussed on the origami boats site. As an engine compartment needs a vent anyway ,that makes a good fire port.
If it can not be sealed, how are you going to keep the water out in a storm, or grounding in surf?
What I am saying is ,it is much wiser to build a boat which can survive a collision or storm, than go in one which cant ,and rely on a rubber ducky when it fails. With 3/16th hull plate on a 36 footer, there is no way you are going to make a serious hole in it at sea. The pictures of Gringo, etc,prove that beyond any reasonable doubt. The temptation to pannic and jump into a rubber ducky, from a sound vessel, may prove far more dangerous, as it tragically did in the Fastnet, several times.
Not having the rubber ducky aboard would have saved many lives ,that time.
My boats have T boned steel barges at hull speed, with no damage. Ditto rocks coral, etc.
NO, a whale is NOT harder than a steel barge.
NO, a whale does NOT have sharper corners than a steel barge.
NO ,a whale is NOT harder than rocks .
NO, a whale will NOT punch a hole in steel plate. ( Blubber vs steel)
 
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solent clown said:
Mr Swain, thanks for your reply in another thread about your alternator welder. You know chap you come in for a lot of stick, and most of that is due to the way you communicate. Why don't you just learn to post pics, a picture speaks a thousand words. I had a google around, there are whole websites with sections dedicated to your infamy.
However down the page are others of people who have built some of your designs. The site below is excellent and informative.
This "origami" method is very interesting indeed and looks easier to corrosion proof than a framed hull. I do have some doubts looking at that pic on the bilge keel load spreading through the hull, and the lack of bulkheads to act as sheer panels within the hull. Neverthless I can see the attraction of building a small boat this way.
Very clever and simple methodology. So please in future when you say something, provide some pics, or a link to something to add context to what you are trying to say. It may serve to close the credibility gap, which would be good for everyone :encouragement:
It is OK to disagree, fine to go against conventional wisdom, some of the greatest leaps have been made by going against the grain, but please leave room for other perspectives, and try to answer questions with facts not anecdotes.
You have valuable something to offer. Talk about and show more of your constructions, it is all genuinely interesting, and actually doing so may make converts of some of us yet.

If you do ever come over here, look me up and I will take you to see a proper hull, 27ft long, 60 odd tons, and around 1200 horsepower.

Here is that link to a Swain boat build, interesting

https://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/i-5wDdZgF
Click to expand...


Thanks for that.
I looked at that link, and found it fascinating. I had never heard of the Origami build method before, although I suppose I have done something similar, on a smaller scale, when building little plywood dinghies.

I built a steel yacht some years ago, a 10.5m Allan Pape design. It was much more laborious, being built with frames, then round bar chines, and then plated. I completed all the steelwork, the shotblasting, and the painting, but before completing the fitting-out, I was given an offer that I couldn't refuse, so I never actually sailed her. I would vouch for her strength. I would have thought that she was just about at the lower size limit for steel.
 
rotrax said:
Brent Swain said:
Brent, when it comes to fixing stuff that needs fixing, you would want me in your corner. I have ALL the skills including foundry work and metal hardening. Restoring antique motorbikes taught me many of those skills plus 45 years of racing motorbikes all over the world.

You are right, anyone can choose to have your lifestyle.

But, like me they might choose to get their rocks off doing something else. For me, dealing with the toughest and most dangerous and demanding racetracks in the world on a high powered motorbike did it.

But I dont bang on all day about it and suggest that my way is the only way, or that my chosen motorbike is the only one.

I came to sailing late in life, 55 years old. During the 15 years First Mate and I have covered more NM's than many who have spent a lifetime sailing, in some of the toughest coastal sailing to be found anywhere.

All in GRP yachts, bar a bit in Wellington Harbour in our steel Hartley.

I am proud of my boat, and one of your blocks would look like shit on it.

Horses for courses.

I can design, build, use and be successfull on motorbikes I have built in my workshop. At speeds in excess of 150MPH 35 years ago-be 200 MPH now.

My machines had to pass the toughest tech inspection in Motorcycle racing. They always did. The IOM TT Circuit is not for duffers. And it was not, by a long chalk, the most dangerous circuit I performed on. The fastest, but not the most dangerous.

I retired from bike racing in September 2008. A few years earlier First Mate and I looked for a replacement pastime-she was a racer too.

It was obvious a game of bowls or a round of golf would not fill the gap left by a high adrenaline motor sport, but sailing had the elements that might, so we took it on. So for its been mostly great.

You must get away from the illusion that your way of sailing and your steel boat is the only way. Also get away from the definate illusion that GRP boats are NFG.

I can assure you-more GRP yachts have circumnavigated than steel ones-one in just over a month................................

All boats are good. Some are more suitable for DIY builing and some tasks than others.

But, if GRP boats were as crap as you keep suggesting, the media would be full of GRP boat disasters.

As it is not, you are perhaps wrong in your views.
Click to expand...

Glad I got away early from the narrow minded illusion that plastic boats, in marinas ,while the owner goes to work for decades to pay for them, and stock, high priced, off the shelf gear, bought on borrowed time, is the only option, an illusion so many still try to impose here.
As I point out in my book, you can judge the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it. Had I done things the narrow minded, "groupthink approved" way, I would have got the same results they had, sell 40 hours a week of your life to get free at age 65. No way would I have enjoyed that as much as semi retiring in my mid 20s.
You obviously have not been reading my posts ,before commenting on them ( (Like many of my critics).
For someone who is boatless, I highly recommend buying a stock plastic boat, which are incredibly cheap around here. Most of my clients have been there, done that. I certainly would, if I were boatless, until I could get into a good steel boat. After a cold, condensation soaked winter living aboard in BC, under a leaky deck ,they cant wait to get into the warm, dry comfort and peace of mind a new steel boat alone can give them. Their choice. Not all of them, nor any of them, would rather spend their lives racing motor bikes, as you so narrow mindedly suggest.
Time you got away from that illusion.
Your goofy, fragile , pretentious looking blocks would look stupid, and totally out of place, on my workboat solid priorities, full time cruiser.
My way has got me semi retired to cruise mostly full time since my mid 20's and my posts are for those who seek that outcome ,not for those who would rather spend their lives working and racing motorbikes, as you imply.
Touche!
Click to expand...
 
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image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/ybw/misc/quote_icon.png
Quote Originally Posted by Poecheng

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View Post
BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-warm(er)-climate)/page39#CXtC3Y4OBdgLe5r8.99

Brent Swain said:
Search http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
Click to expand...
Hilo Clearance.jpg
 
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image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/ybw/misc/quote_icon.png
Quote Originally Posted by Poecheng

image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/ybw/buttons/viewpost-right.png
View Post
BS - for someone that has done so much and whose designs have achieved so much, you have remarkably little documentary evidence of the same.

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-warm(er)-climate)/page39#CXtC3Y4OBdgLe5r8.99
Brent Swain said:
Search http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
Click to expand...
Hauled out inTonga.jpg
My current boat, hauled out in Vavau, Tonga, preparing for a non stop from Tonga to Vancouver Island.
 
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Rogershaw said:
Robin & John

I agree with you both and my simple view is that no currently boat building material is perfice all have there advantages and disadvantages. The closest I have come across is cupro nickel...
Click to expand...
What's so great about cupro-nickel, Roger ? </Genuine question.>

Boo2
 
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