Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Brent Swain]

Completely agree, similar to what I have been saying through this thread.

Problem for our steel enthusiast is reality. Unless you can have a new steel boat built and wait while the process is carried out, build one yourself or purchase a used one, you wont find one as easily as in other materials.

GRP, Aluminium, timber, all readily available.

The distinct advantages which BS implies re steel, I-and most others interested-can agree with.

But to suggest that ALL GRP boats are crap and not fit for purpose other than sitting in Marina's is so wrong it has been corrected by many experienced sailors and owners.

The unfortunate part is that BS will not accept facts that dont meet his extremely narrow outlook.

One thing I will say, and I suspect I will not be contradicted, is that if one of the major boatbuilders built and sold Steel yachts in large numbers, they would need a bloody big warranty department!

I have just used Oxalic Acid to-as they say in Belfast- take the bad look off the portlight areas of my steel boat. Temporary fix, all the vertical staining has gone, paint not too bad, but the cut edge where the portlights were cut is badly corroded. The builder should have put the perspex on the outside, so not leaving a trap for seawater to lurk.

Oh well-off we go again, lots of work on the horizon..............................

I once installed a stainless opening port in the front of a wheelhouse on one of my 36 footers ,by removing the glass and welding the stainless frame corner to corner to the steel, leaving everything open to the paint brush and epoxy, with no hidden spaces between surfaces for rust to start.
As you so accurately point out, doing things properly, based on decades of steel boat ownership and maintenance, can drastically cut the maintenance on a steel boat, and the liabilities. I always advocate bolting the perspex on the outside, which would have probably eliminated your problem, as you pointed out . Not doing so is the builders fault, not the fault of the material.
It was giving it the "yottie look" ,over more practical priorities, based on the nature of the material ,which causes so many similar maintenance problems.

Yes , plastic is good material for most part time coastal cruising, just not as good as steel for full time, year round cruising as a way of life.
No it is no where near as safe and worry free as steel, when sailing at hull speed on a dark ,moonless night.

I met a guy this past summer, who has owned two steel boats, cruised extensively, and now has a plastic boat. He said, after experiencing the feeling of safety and security of steel, ( a feeling few cruisers have ever exprienced), he feels like he is now sailing in a fragile eggshell.

 

[Brent Swain]

Your description (and experience you recount) of fires is very revealing about how little you know about fires and firefighting.

No I’m not in the life raft selling business. (Quote)

What I did worked . What is your suggestion for putting that fire out, which would work better and more quickly than the few minutes it took me to put that fire out?
My brother, an ex- lieutenant in the Campbell River Fire Department, and a fire fighter most of his adult life, said what I did, sealing the boat, was the right thing to do. The quick extinguishment of the fire proved that!

 

[Brent Swain]

No wooden boat fan would consider going to sea without wood working tools aboard. Plastic boat fans would not start a long voyage without extra resin, hardener and glass aboard.
I found it easy to rig an engine driven 100 amp alternator for welding, driven by my main engine.It is the sweetest dc welder I have ever used. With it, I have welded up wind vanes, wood stoves, anchor winches, etc, all built from scratch, from scrap stainless ,in my cockpit ,while at anchor.
It also runs my 120 volt power tools, like my angle grinder, die grinder and drill.
They have cost me as little as $25 in an auto wreckers.

 

[Robin]

Life is too short to be reading this incessant one sided oratory ad nauseam until New Year 2018 let alone 2019:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:

I must be truly pathetic to keep clicking to see if it is over yet:ambivalence:.

 

[rotrax]

Just seen on the PBO thread "waterproofing marine ply" thread that BS is an expert on that too.

I do note, from that thread, that he is currently in BC-which I take to be British Columbia. This perhaps explains why he is so set on steel to the exclusion of all else. From Seattle all the way North there are plenty of Whales and floating logs.

I am familiar with the area, having sailed in Puget Sound, the San Juan's and around Victoria Island.

Brent's favourite material in the minority in that area. My direct experience of being there showed me that far more timber and GRP leisure boats are being used in that area than steel.

I dont care how long you have been sailing and using steel boats, maintaining them for only two hours a year, not needing a liferaft and putting fires out by shutting the doors.

Steel has SOME advantages.

It is undoubtedly very strong and less likely to hole.

Is it the best material to build a yacht from?

For some particular uses, perhaps yes.

For all yachts-most certainly not.

As about 96% (a pure guess) of boat owners choose other materials, BS might be flogging a dead 'un..........................................

 

[john_morris_uk]

Your description (and experience you recount) of fires is very revealing about how little you know about fires and firefighting.

No I’m not in the life raft selling business. (Quote)

What I did worked . What is your suggestion for putting that fire out, which would work better and more quickly than the few minutes it took me to put that fire out?
My brother, an ex- lieutenant in the Campbell River Fire Department, and a fire fighter most of his adult life, said what I did, sealing the boat, was the right thing to do. The quick extinguishment of the fire proved that!

The fact that it worked on your fire doesn’t make it the right technique to be adopted for all fires on (steel) boats. The fact that you put your fire out in that way was a good response on that occasion and will mean your brother says well done.

Your steel boat will sink just as readily as any other if a fire really gets a hold of the inside flammable material. It’s foolish to pretend otherwise and extremely dangerous advice to suggest otherwise to others.

I admire your single mindedness, but with respect it’s also your great failing.

 

[coenvanwyk]

I also admire Brent's single-mindedness, but went a different way. I also boilt in steel, because I am a bad driver. And a recent tornado here (inland water for the moment) proved a point: glass and double diagonal hulle that fell were damaged. Mine, steel, but not origami, did not fall, but even if she did the damage would have been neglegible.

Of course missions differ. This was a racing weekender, mine aspires to be a live-aboard coastal cruiser. But still...

 

[rogerthebodger]

I also admire Brent's single-mindedness, but went a different way. I also boilt in steel, because I am a bad driver. And a recent tornado here (inland water for the moment) proved a point: glass and double diagonal hulle that fell were damaged. Mine, steel, but not origami, did not fall, but even if she did the damage would have been neglegible.

Of course missions differ. This was a racing weekender, mine aspires to be a live-aboard coastal cruiser. But still...

View attachment 68173

Hi I see your boat is on the Vaal Dam and from what I see in your blog you built her in Pretoria.

Mine is in Durban at the Durban Marina and I fitted mine out on a friends plot in Kempton Park.

As I am sure you know we had a storm in Durban that wrecked and sunk a number of GRP boats but very little damage to mine.

I have known of Brent for some time and he does get peoples backs up due to some of his wild statement based on his single minded approach.

One think is that steel usage is not very common at a DIY material like here in South Africa and the US. We also don't have a very large local GRP boat building tradition. Most GRP boats built in South Africa are exported into the charter market and as of today less sold local.

 

[Robin]

Hi I see your boat is on the Vaal Dam and from what I see in your blog you built her in Pretoria.

Mine is in Durban at the Durban Marina and I fitted mine out on a friends plot in Kempton Park.

As I am sure you know we had a storm in Durban that wrecked and sunk a number of GRP boats but very little damage to mine.

I have known of Brent for some time and he does get peoples backs up due to some of his wild statement based on his single minded approach.

One think is that steel usage is not very common at a DIY material like here in South Africa and the US. We also don't have a very large local GRP boat building tradition. Most GRP boats built in South Africa are exported into the charter market and as of today less sold local.

He appears to have 'happened' onto a mainly UK forum having been exorcised elsewhere to the point of banning. He also appears not to recognise any other points of view than his own very polarised ones which is truly counterproductive Most of us can understand, even agree with much of his reasoning right up until he goes way over the top and then some more and simply annoys. If we were to do something similar in a forum in his locale with different subject matter, the outcome might well be the same and annoyance roles reversed.


Still Happy New Year to all, regardless of where what and how!:encouragement:. .

 

[john_morris_uk]

He appears to have 'happened' onto a mainly UK forum having been exorcised elsewhere to the point of banning. He also appears not to recognise any other points of view than his own very polarised ones which is truly counterproductive Most of us can understand, even agree with much of his reasoning right up until he goes way over the top and then some more and simply annoys. If we were to do something similar in a forum in his locale with different subject matter, the outcome might well be the same and annoyance roles reversed.


Still Happy New Year to all, regardless of where what and how!:encouragement:. .

Totally agree. The only reason I reply Is that I get worried that some innocent or newcomer to yachting will take his advice seriously. Some of it is good, but some of it is downright dangerous. Hopefully anyone reading the thread will have realised that (despite his self proclaimed expertise) his is not the gold plated standard of advice on all things boating.

Its a shame as he has some good experiences and advice to share.

 

[rogerthebodger]

He appears to have 'happened' onto a mainly UK forum having been exorcised elsewhere to the point of banning. He also appears not to recognise any other points of view than his own very polarised ones which is truly counterproductive Most of us can understand, even agree with much of his reasoning right up until he goes way over the top and then some more and simply annoys. If we were to do something similar in a forum in his locale with different subject matter, the outcome might well be the same and annoyance roles reversed.


Still Happy New Year to all, regardless of where what and how!:encouragement:. .

Robin & John

I agree with you both and my simple view is that no currently boat building material is perfice all have there advantages and disadvantages. The closest I have come across is cupro nickel but the cost is simply too much for even a custom built boat.

Most boats are semi mass produced these days and that leads to molding and GRP is the correct material for that together with is ability to endure with little maintenance required and even if neglected can be cleaned up very easy.

Steel, Aluminium, wood, ferro all have their supporters and all have pros and cons. Its an individual's choice and who am I to argue with that.

Brent goes too far.

Happy new year to all and keep safe in the current UK bad weather.

 

[Robin]

Andrew Simpson, one time sub-editor of PBO, friend, and well known Poole designer and Surveyor was a fan of epoxy coated cedar planked construction and built several boats that way including himself and others in his workshop at Davis's Yard Poole. There were several steel boats built in the yard there too, some even got finished. There was also a grp trimaran built from scratch but I never saw it fully fitted out, just the completed hulls and decking, before we moved yards to wintering at our yacht club Oh an IIRC there was a couple of ferro offerings also, one built by a farmer and from no doubt tax deductible materials, chicken wire , cements etc. . There were also many grp hulls professionally moulded but owner fitted out. My own miserable efforts were limited to wooden canoes ( first one kit built at age 12 in a friends stable) and an all wooden ski/runabout, built from a set of plans None of my meagre efforts were certified whale or fire proof, but then, since they were never damaged thus, perhaps they could be claimed as such Sadly all my pictures were non digital 35mm colour sides long since lost Other than that my skills have been limited to the restoration and/or correction of the work of others. across two wooden and 8 grp boats, 6 sail and two motor. I envy those with the determination to complete a major full boat building project from scratch especially using skills that I do not possess. I know my limitations.

 

[Quandary]

Well, that was a couple of hours of my life that I won't be getting back.
Where's the malt?

 

[GHA]

Short piece to get away from the bickering for a moment...

https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/12/29/which-is-the-best-boat-for-offshore-cruising/

[FONT=&quot]because what really matters is what kind of boat works for each of us, [/FONT]is safe for our intended purpose[FONT=&quot], and, most importantly, makes us happy. And there are nearly as many different answers to that question as there are cruisers.[[/FONT]/QUOTE]

 

[Brent Swain]

The fact that it worked on your fire doesn’t make it the right technique to be adopted for all fires on (steel) boats. The fact that you put your fire out in that way was a good response on that occasion and will mean your brother says well done.

Your steel boat will sink just as readily as any other if a fire really gets a hold of the inside flammable material. It’s foolish to pretend otherwise and extremely dangerous advice to suggest otherwise to others.

I admire your single mindedness, but with respect it’s also your great failing.

It really got hold of the foam, then went out.You say that it can keep on going, with no oxygen?
Ya sure!
The boats I mentioned being gutted by fire, were all in the water. None sank.
I like sealing rope ends by melting them with a match . Try soaking the end in water, then melting it with a match. No chance. Seems a similar thing happens with water in a hose, connected to the vast cooling ocean.

Some have a huge financial stake in people being misled to believe that plastic is their only option as a boat building material. That has cost a lot of lives. They don't like anyone who offers safer alternatives. They greatly outnumber those who do.
Dying at sea is "a great failing" as I would have, several times, ( many have) had I not been in a steel boat

 

[Kelpie]

Seeing as you are back, Brent, would you maybe consider my question to you:
You say that steel is cheap and the boats it produces are no slower than the alternatives. In fact I don't think you have suggested any particular downsides to steel as a boat building material.
So, why don't Bavaria et al build in steel?

 

[rotrax]

It really got hold of the foam, then went out.You say that it can keep on going, with no oxygen?
Ya sure!
The boats I mentioned being gutted by fire, were all in the water. None sank.
I like sealing rope ends by melting them with a match . Try soaking the end in water, then melting it with a match. No chance. Seems a similar thing happens with water in a hose, connected to the vast cooling ocean.

Some have a huge financial stake in people being misled to believe that plastic is their only option as a boat building material. That has cost a lot of lives. They don't like anyone who offers safer alternatives. They greatly outnumber those who do.
Dying at sea is "a great failing" as I would have, several times, ( many have) had I not been in a steel boat

So, Brent old chap-who is misleading purchasers?

I can tell, by your demeanour and posts on here that you will NEVER buy a new boat in any material.

There are none that would meet your exacting standards.

A little anecdote, many years ago, a very dear friend was holding forth on what was wrong with Japanese motorcycles.

Poor weather protection, complicated engines precluding home repair, no covers on the front and rear suspension components and lots of other stuff.

Among his audience was the Technical Manager of one of the big four Japanese manufacturers plus the Sales Manager of another.

He was asked a simple question " Have you ever purchased, or do you intend to purchase a new motorcycle? "

His answer was an unequivical" No "

" Waste of time listening to you then " came the reply.

A bit like Eddie Cochrans " Summertime Blues " " I'd like to help you son, but you are to young to vote " said the Congressman.

Dont do down boat purchasers, they are not easily misled. I am currently in NZ. Most leisure boats made here are in Aluminium or GRP. And very good they are too.

New Zealand and Finland are slugging it out to have the title of " Most boats owned per capita of population " Both countries have large boat building industries, Finland a Shipbuiling industry. AFAIK no production boat is available from either country in steel.

I wonder why.......................................Perhaps the very high quote to build one of your designs puts them out of reach for mere mortals without your passion for steel boats.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It really got hold of the foam, then went out.You say that it can keep on going, with no oxygen?
Ya sure!
The boats I mentioned being gutted by fire, were all in the water. None sank.
I like sealing rope ends by melting them with a match . Try soaking the end in water, then melting it with a match. No chance. Seems a similar thing happens with water in a hose, connected to the vast cooling ocean.

Some have a huge financial stake in people being misled to believe that plastic is their only option as a boat building material. That has cost a lot of lives. They don't like anyone who offers safer alternatives. They greatly outnumber those who do.
Dying at sea is "a great failing" as I would have, several times, ( many have) had I not been in a steel boat

Brent, in your fixation, it appears you don’t actually read what I write. Your emotional appeals about ‘dying at sea’ don’t help your cause either.

I’m also confused as to why you start harping on about “people being misled to believe that plastic is their only option as a boat building material.” As I’ve said before, show me where I’ve said that. I actually think steel can be an excellent boat building material, but it’s not perfect and it has many faults/problems.

What I am REALLY challenging is this ludicrous notion you are trying to put about that any fire on a steel boat can be easily contained and controlled by shutting all the hatches. Of course fires go out without a source of oxygen, but to start promulgating a myth that closing off the air supply is as easy as you suggest is dangerous and needs to be strongly challenged. Furthermore, suggesting that because of this magical property of steel to contain fires, and for welds to never break and the hull to never be compromised, you suggest that no liferaft is necessary is also dangerous nonsense.

 

[Robin]

Well, that was a couple of hours of my life that I won't be getting back.
Where's the malt?

Better open bottle another 'cos it ain't done yet! I used to enjoy rusty nails (Scotch and Drambuie) maybe could invent a new one called a 'rusty tub' (calm DOWN Brent, think of it as an epoxy coated chalice)

 

[solent clown]

Hey Mr Swain, it's a shame the firefighters aboard the USS Miami didnt think to take your advice, after all a nuclear submarine has airtight compartments, is built from the highest grade materials available, not grp or plywood. It still ended up scrap.