co256
Well-Known Member
Doubtless Entrenched Brain will be back tonight to haunt you as the ghost of shipwrights past...
Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).
- Thread starter Tin Tin
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
A spark flew up his trouser leg
And I wonder if a moderator can think up a suitable next line.
.... and burned him on his left kneecap?
Does that scan and rhyme properly enuff 4 u?
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Brent stood on the burning deck,
His stick welder all a quiver
He gave a cough, his earth fell off
And floated down the river.
His stick welder all a quiver
He gave a cough, his earth fell off
And floated down the river.
Brent Swain
N/A
How does the fire get roaring hot with no oxygen? My wood stove doesn't even do that.
If that is a possibility, then why didn't my boat do that?
If as you claim, what I did wont work, then why did it?
How do you consider seaworthy, a boat which cant be easily sealed?
I had 2 cowl vents , and two more six inch vents, and the hatch to close, to seal her. Took seconds.
After arriving in the next anchorage, I waited the entire afternoon before opening her up, ready to close her instantly, should there be a problem.There was none.
Keep it simple, for seaworthiness.
99% of steel boat owners I know, consider their steel hulls to be their life raft. Many have huge amounts of ocean cruising experience.
Not the case with non metal boats.
Are you in the liferaft selling business, or just trying to discourage those who cant afford the huge expense of a life raft from considering going cruising?
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Brent Swain
N/A
Those who did it by the
"Approved by the self proclaimed experts" here, had their boats gutted.
What I did worked, with minimal damage. Doing it by your recommended way, never has.
This reminds me of a story heard about the Fukashima earthquake and tsunami disaster. School children who followed what they had been told, "line up and wait for instructions from the "Authorities", all died . Those who ignored them and ran up the hill, all survived.
Better to be wrong and alive, than dead right!
Why is it that, whenever the subject of steel boats comes up, so many posts become incredibly childish?
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Brent Swain
N/A
On Vendee Globe boats, the sliding hatch and drop boards have mostly gone the way of the dodo bird ( hair brained arrangement anyway)!
Brent Swain
N/A
Some steel boats suffer from corrosion in a big way, some suffer very little . The difference is; get it right and you wont have much trouble.Get it wrong and you will. So, if you have big corrosion problems on a steel boat, you are doing things wrong( maybe your source of advice has no experience with success). Get your advice from someone with a steel boat who obviously has it figured out, not from plastic boat salesmen.
Being in a rubber ducky boat in mid Pacific is a much bigger problem than a couple hours maintenance a year.
Amazing, how many will criticize steel maintenance ,with its huge safety advantages, yet do exponentially more maintenance work on something as functionally useless as varnish on the outside of a boat
Brent Swain
N/A
This winter I have heard many Coast Guard reports of big docks floating free. We sometimes have log booms break up, up to 3 ft diameter, 40 ft long logs.
Further north, reports of uncharted rocks are a regular occurrence.That is why plastic boaters here are usually afraid to sail at night . I do most of my winter sailing at night, with no worries, have done so for decades. Plastic boaters have no concept of sailing with such freedom and peace of mind, having never actually experienced it.
Further north, reports of uncharted rocks are a regular occurrence.That is why plastic boaters here are usually afraid to sail at night . I do most of my winter sailing at night, with no worries, have done so for decades. Plastic boaters have no concept of sailing with such freedom and peace of mind, having never actually experienced it.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
[URL="http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6288561#post6288561"]
[/URL]Show me where I've suggested that you immediately abandon your boat and take to the liferaft.
Any seaman worth their salt knows that you step UP into the liferaft as a last resort as the ship/boat sinks underneath you.
Or in the case of a steel boat as it becomes too hot to stand on the steel with the fire roaring away inside. Any decent seaman knows that a properly built boat is well ventilated and although its POSSIBLE to seal much of the ventilation off, its also time consuming and slow. I've got several dorades and water resistant ventilators on my boat and the screw on caps to seal them off are stored below. Bit tricky to seal off the ventilation when you've just been beaten back by the flames, smoke and heat if you can't access below decks and you certainly daren't risk opening a hatch and introducing a large volume of air and inducing a fireball flash back.
Better to have the option of a liferaft as a final resort that listen to extremely dangerous advice from someone who is making it clearer and clearer that he is a liability at sea. I don't mean to be unkind, but some of your suggestions and guidance are risible and dangerous.
Tell us about any firefighting courses you've done....
I also strongly suspect that the yacht that burned out its interior in San Franscico was ashore. Or are you going to claim that every seacock was shut?
I think you will find that JM is.
Sort of :encouragement:
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by john_morris_uk
[URL="http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6288561#post6288561"]
Show me where I've suggested that you immediately abandon your boat and take to the liferaft.
Any seaman worth their salt knows that you step UP into the liferaft as a last resort as the ship/boat sinks underneath you.
Or in the case of a steel boat as it becomes too hot to stand on the steel with the fire roaring away inside. Any decent seaman knows that a properly built boat is well ventilated and although its POSSIBLE to seal much of the ventilation off, its also time consuming and slow. I've got several dorades and water resistant ventilators on my boat and the screw on caps to seal them off are stored below. Bit tricky to seal off the ventilation when you've just been beaten back by the flames, smoke and heat if you can't access below decks and you certainly daren't risk opening a hatch and introducing a large volume of air and inducing a fireball flash back.
Better to have the option of a liferaft as a final resort that listen to extremely dangerous advice from someone who is making it clearer and clearer that he is a liability at sea. I don't mean to be unkind, but some of your suggestions and guidance are risible and dangerous.
Tell us about any firefighting courses you've done....
I also strongly suspect that the yacht that burned out its interior in San Franscico was ashore. Or are you going to claim that every seacock was shut?
I think you will find that JM is.
Sort of :encouragement:
That’s very funny. (And not helpful to Brent)
What is true (and more relevant to this discussion) is that until a few weeks ago I gained most of my income from my work as a professional sailor in power and sail craft.
It won’t make any difference to some of the dangerous assertions made by Brent, that I sincerely hope most people will completely ignore, but rather than being some self proclaimed ‘expert’, I assess skippers (in his language ‘Captains’) for their ticket to command vessels up to 200 tonnes and 25 metres LOA. A main part of their examination includes assessing safety. Of course the MCA and RYA obviously are jumped up amateurs compared to Brent.
The exam is a practical exam at sea not some oral board or written paper. I also teach boat handling and teach and examine ocean (as in astro) navigation. Whilst I can be patient with someone who is one tracked, when they start to make claims that are downright dangerous, then I become very worried indeed.
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Your description (and experience you recount) of fires is very revealing about how little you know about fires and firefighting.
No I’m not in the life raft selling business.
It’s extremely poor advice to suggest you don’t carry a life-raft regardless of what your hull construction is. Perhaps you can point to any authority on safety at sea that agrees with your assertion that a steel boat is your best life-raft?
I appreciate that some impecunious sailors take the risk, but that’s their choice. It’s not a recommendation.
solent clown
RIP
I now understand why this chap has not been banned. He is the unfortunate figure of fun for thousands and does not even realise it. That is a shame for him, and for everyone else, as his obvious experience and expertise is lost in his comedic ranting.
I am not a boatbuilding expert, but I know just about all there is to know about steel and fabrication. I know about issues with corrosion and fatigue that are near impossible to broach in land based vehicles and structures without constant maintenance, and even then nothing is forever. I love the idea of a metal boat, but I could not be doing with the reality of having to have the whole interior removeable to be able to inspect and maintain the hull, and all the work just to keep it from turning into a colander. Then again, I am a relative novice sailor, and not considering ocean voyages. We are however dead set on a liveaboard as soon as the last of our children have flown the nest. That will be plastic.
Incidentally, as part of our daily lives, and by way of experiment, my wife and I have abandoned the house, and we live in a large STEEL shed complex at the bottom of our garden. we have a log burner, and hot water from it's back boiler, and almost everything runs off 12v and an invertor. We are still properly sorting things like insulation. It is very hot in the summer, and very cold in the winter - the log burner heats it fine, but was very greedy. The only way to make it efficient was to insulate fully the whole building, walls and ceilings. This made a huge difference, and got rid of condensation. I imagine you would have to do the same on a steel boat - That is where my worries come in too. Doubtless Mr Swain you have a magic solution which might be interesting to hear if only you could moderate your tone and present your arguments as your point of view based upon experience, and not a negative defensive rant wrapped up in insults.
I STARTED READING THROUGH THIS THREAD FOR GENUINE REASONS AS LIVING ABOARD IS A LONG TERM GOAL FOR US. Why not use your experience to help ? I might be the Solent Clown, but it seems you are the man running his own circus. Instead of being the ringmaster of chaos, why not just calm down a bit my brother from across the pond. Sailing is a common interest, so why not show some common courtesy, and most of all, some common sense.
By the way, have you ever made a steel dinghy?
I am not a boatbuilding expert, but I know just about all there is to know about steel and fabrication. I know about issues with corrosion and fatigue that are near impossible to broach in land based vehicles and structures without constant maintenance, and even then nothing is forever. I love the idea of a metal boat, but I could not be doing with the reality of having to have the whole interior removeable to be able to inspect and maintain the hull, and all the work just to keep it from turning into a colander. Then again, I am a relative novice sailor, and not considering ocean voyages. We are however dead set on a liveaboard as soon as the last of our children have flown the nest. That will be plastic.
Incidentally, as part of our daily lives, and by way of experiment, my wife and I have abandoned the house, and we live in a large STEEL shed complex at the bottom of our garden. we have a log burner, and hot water from it's back boiler, and almost everything runs off 12v and an invertor. We are still properly sorting things like insulation. It is very hot in the summer, and very cold in the winter - the log burner heats it fine, but was very greedy. The only way to make it efficient was to insulate fully the whole building, walls and ceilings. This made a huge difference, and got rid of condensation. I imagine you would have to do the same on a steel boat - That is where my worries come in too. Doubtless Mr Swain you have a magic solution which might be interesting to hear if only you could moderate your tone and present your arguments as your point of view based upon experience, and not a negative defensive rant wrapped up in insults.
I STARTED READING THROUGH THIS THREAD FOR GENUINE REASONS AS LIVING ABOARD IS A LONG TERM GOAL FOR US. Why not use your experience to help ? I might be the Solent Clown, but it seems you are the man running his own circus. Instead of being the ringmaster of chaos, why not just calm down a bit my brother from across the pond. Sailing is a common interest, so why not show some common courtesy, and most of all, some common sense.
By the way, have you ever made a steel dinghy?
SlowlyButSurely
Well-Known Member
Just when I thought this thread was fizzling out it's gained a new lease of life.
John - just about every authority I have ever heard venture an opinion since the 79 Fastnet has recommended staying on the boat as being the best course of action.
And another benefit of steel for the cruising sailor: it's more bullet proof than plastic.
John - just about every authority I have ever heard venture an opinion since the 79 Fastnet has recommended staying on the boat as being the best course of action.
And another benefit of steel for the cruising sailor: it's more bullet proof than plastic.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
You are completely correct to say stay with the boat unless absolutely necessary to abandon. Hence my saying earlier that the usual phrase is 'step UP into the liferaft as the boat sinks beneath you.
However, perhaps you can cite any authority that also says there's no need for a liferaft?
Thought not...
And steel boats are only bullet proof in hollywood films. It may be 'more bullet proof' but having been in war situations I'm not a fan of being 'a little bit shot'.
solent clown
RIP
Amen to that brother.
SlowlyButSurely
Well-Known Member
Brent Swain is the authority that says a liferaft is not necessary!!
This banter is quite fun but I think the serious point is that if you have a robust vessel that is less likely to be sunk by a whale or sunk from beneath you by gunfire then you are more likely to survive the experience. Whether you carry a liferaft is up to individual judgement of the risks. And yes I knew people who have had both of these experiences.
This banter is quite fun but I think the serious point is that if you have a robust vessel that is less likely to be sunk by a whale or sunk from beneath you by gunfire then you are more likely to survive the experience. Whether you carry a liferaft is up to individual judgement of the risks. And yes I knew people who have had both of these experiences.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Knew a guy on a steel boat in Trini who had dents in the top sides from bullets after an incident off Venezuela
His boat was definitely bullet proof in places, same boat was bashed up and down the quay in whatever that hurricane that went south was, Ivan was it?
Many hours of welding & bashing & painting before getting back to the anchorage, plastic boat would have been on the bottom within an hour.
So back to where we were really, steel is of little interest to almost everyone on here, but to the very few that venture farther and can use a welder & grinder & paintbrush it has some qualities head and shoulders above plastic.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Knew a guy on a steel boat in Trini who had dents in the top sides from bullets after an incident off Venezuela
His boat was definitely bullet proof in places, same boat was bashed up and down the quay in whatever that hurricane that went south was, Ivan was it?
Many hours of welding & bashing & painting before getting back to the anchorage, plastic boat would have been on the bottom within an hour.
So back to where we were really, steel is of little interest to almost everyone on here, but to the very few that venture farther and can use a welder & grinder & paintbrush it has some qualities head and shoulders above plastic.
The trouble is that I completely agree with you. I’ve sailed thousands of miles on steel boats plus all the time I’ve spent on and under the sea on rather bigger steel ships and boats.
It’s the stupidly xenophobic utterings that I jib against. Steel is not the panacea against all our problems but is one option in the boat builders and designers available materials.
I think its the way that Brent thinks steel's good qualities trump all others options for boat building that's the real issue along with his idea that all the problems associated with steel are easily solved (they most certainly aren't!)
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
Completely agree, similar to what I have been saying through this thread.
Problem for our steel enthusiast is reality. Unless you can have a new steel boat built and wait while the process is carried out, build one yourself or purchase a used one, you wont find one as easily as in other materials.
GRP, Aluminium, timber, all readily available.
The distinct advantages which BS implies re steel, I-and most others interested-can agree with.
But to suggest that ALL GRP boats are crap and not fit for purpose other than sitting in Marina's is so wrong it has been corrected by many experienced sailors and owners.
The unfortunate part is that BS will not accept facts that dont meet his extremely narrow outlook.
One thing I will say, and I suspect I will not be contradicted, is that if one of the major boatbuilders built and sold Steel yachts in large numbers, they would need a bloody big warranty department!
I have just used Oxalic Acid to-as they say in Belfast- take the bad look off the portlight areas of my steel boat. Temporary fix, all the vertical staining has gone, paint not too bad, but the cut edge where the portlights were cut is badly corroded. The builder should have put the perspex on the outside, so not leaving a trap for seawater to lurk.
Oh well-off we go again, lots of work on the horizon..............................
Brent Swain
N/A
You know all there is to know about steel boats, without having ever owned, lived aboard, built nor sailed one, anywhere, yet you know more about them than someone who has single handed across the pacific 9 times, owned two, lived aboard , designed and maintained steel boats for over 40 years, and put together over 3 dozen of them, including circumnavigators, all highly successful?
Now that makes YOU the definition of a clown!
Try heavily epoxying the inside of your steel shed, then giving every sq inch of steel a thick layer of spray foam. Live in it for a while, and experience the huge increase in comfort . Then tell us how you plan to scrape all that foam and interior out at regular intervals, to check the steel under it, and then refoam and rebuild your interior each time.
If you go for a plastic boat, spray foam the inside, right down to the floor boards, but not the bilge. Cover every sq millimeter of plastic and metal ,or it will drip condensation like a leaky faucett. The difference in comfort and reduction in fuel needed to heat it will be huge. Several of my clients have come from living aboard condensation soaked, stock plastic boats, and have said the difference in comfort was huge . They have owned houses most of their lives , and said their boat is the most comfortable home they have ever lived in. If yours is not, then you are doing something wrong. It can be.
One young lady living on a stock plastic boat, said the underside of her foredeck is raining condensation, and she cant glue foam insulation up until it dries... in spring!
I hear the spray foam kits, which look like two propane bottles connected together, are easy to use, and affordable.
To work well, a wood stove has to be airtight, and thus controlable. Here in BC it is standard equipment on most live aboard boats . Scrap 1/8th inch stainless makes the best wood stoves.
I have built an origami aluminium dingy , a great dinghy, with only two problems. The high price of scrap aluminium made it get stolen. Corrosion was another problem .
Einstein said
"The problem with smart people, is they sound like crazy people, to stupid people."
I am sure a six year old, listening to a nuclear physicist give a lecture on the subject ,would find what he says, pretty funny and comical. Ditto would some one who hasn't a clue on the subject of steel boats, listening to someone with my decades of hands on experience, do likewise.
No one else here, or on other sites, has any where near my decades of hands on experience on this subject. Most of my critics have almost zero, and their posts are made up of old wives tales, and myths from plastic boat salesmen.
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