Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[rotrax]

Don't forget to check the latest posts by Prairie Made and Matt Malone on the origami boats site.
The rest of my critics have absolutely zero hands on experience in the subject of their criticism.

But, as Robin says, no one has criticised you or your steel boats, which are both no doubt excellent.

But you are suffering from severe tunnel vision.

Rubbishing boats which are not made from your favoured material does you no credit at all.

Thousands of boats made from GRP, alloy, timber and even as PWC's are ABS give satisfactory and safe service for many, many years.

The advantage of steel as a boatbuilding material, as you correctly point out, is its strength, ease of repair and freedom from leaks. But, with all due respect to a steel enthusiast, it is not the Universal Panacea of boatbuilding, whatever you might think.

In my direct experience, boats are like motorcycles. They dont very often wear out in private as opposed to commercial hands, but are abused and neglected to death.

Like these hundreds of GRP boats you can get for nothing.......................................................

 

[Robin]

Anecdotal I know but currently we have a salvage barge/crane working on the opposite bank of the ICW to us in Florida. It is picking up the wrecks after hurricane Irma On deck so far are two grp mobos, already on the barge, more or less intact after dragging ashore, one grp sailboat that was afloat but was simply abandoned after dragging with shredded sails and there is a hard chine steel sailboat that sank and has been on the bottom some time judging by the extreme growth visible.. Anecdotally the grp boats fared better.:highly_amused::highly_amused:

 

[rotrax]

Anecdotal I know but currently we have a salvage barge/crane working on the opposite bank of the ICW to us in Florida. It is picking up the wrecks after hurricane Irma On deck so far are two grp mobos, already on the barge, more or less intact after dragging ashore, one grp sailboat that was afloat but was simply abandoned after dragging with shredded sails and there is a hard chine steel sailboat that sank and has been on the bottom some time judging by the extreme growth visible.. Anecdotally the grp boats fared better.:highly_amused::highly_amused:

Robin-you must surely be mistaken.

I have it on good authority that Steel boats do not sink.....................................

 

[john_morris_uk]

Robin-you must surely be mistaken.

I have it on good authority that Steel boats do not sink.....................................

Indeed. And even when cruising off the beaten track you don’t need a life raft.

 

[Brent Swain]

Anecdotal I know but currently we have a salvage barge/crane working on the opposite bank of the ICW to us in Florida. It is picking up the wrecks after hurricane Irma On deck so far are two grp mobos, already on the barge, more or less intact after dragging ashore, one grp sailboat that was afloat but was simply abandoned after dragging with shredded sails and there is a hard chine steel sailboat that sank and has been on the bottom some time judging by the extreme growth visible.. Anecdotally the grp boats fared better.:highly_amused::highly_amused:

Yes ,if a boat is poorly painted it will rust thin and hole more easily.Simple solution, an adequate paint job.
When Bernard's Joshua ended up on a Baja Beach, a plastic boat landed on top and disintegrated .Joshua was not even holed, but had huge dents, which would have been huge holes, had she been plastic. She sailed on.
The claim that plastic is tougher than steel is ludicrous. Would you really build a wooden hull with plastic fastenings, rather than metal?
Whack a plastic hull with a steel pick axe ( plenty of plastic hulls littering our beaches around here)
Now try whacking a steel 3/16th plate with a plastic pick axe.
How tough are your plastic chisels, hammer , saw ,screwdriver, knives , wrenches and engine head bolts?
Most of the commercially made sailboats around here have only outside welding on the chines, cabin side tops , etc etc, mostly ground flush, leaving about the thickness of a beer can holding them together.
Paul mentioned one, an Amazon, dragging anchor , and gently bumping a mooring buoy, which caused the transom to break away from the hull.
No amateur would rely on such thin metal, or miss inside welding. Commercial builders become real expert at constantly pushing the line on how little they can get away with. They have to, to stay in business.

 

[Brent Swain]

But, as Robin says, no one has criticised you or your steel boats, which are both no doubt excellent.

But you are suffering from severe tunnel vision.

Rubbishing boats which are not made from your favoured material does you no credit at all.

Thousands of boats made from GRP, alloy, timber and even as PWC's are ABS give satisfactory and safe service for many, many years.

The advantage of steel as a boatbuilding material, as you correctly point out, is its strength, ease of repair and freedom from leaks. But, with all due respect to a steel enthusiast, it is not the Universal Panacea of boatbuilding, whatever you might think.

In my direct experience, boats are like motorcycles. They dont very often wear out in private as opposed to commercial hands, but are abused and neglected to death.

Like these hundreds of GRP boats you can get for nothing.......................................................

I have often stated that plastic is better for leaving in a marina and occasional use. I have never claimed steel as the "panacea" for all boats.Those are your words not mine. I must be right ,when the only way you can find something to criticize me with, is by putting your words in my mouth.
I have listed the benefits of steel , which you interpret as stating that listing ANY of the many benefits ,is stating that steel is the only answer to all boating needs.
Most of my clients have owned, and tried living aboard plastic boats, and want nothing to do with them, after experiencing the warm, dry comfort, and peace of mind of a good steel boat.
My steel boats have been constantly criticized and attacked by "plastic as the only option" type critics.
You say "NO ONE" has criticized them?
What rock have you been living under?
It is you who have tunnel vision.

 

[Brent Swain]

Lots of links to SAilnet , Facebook etc, worth a looksee if you have more time to waste.

Sailnet. aka Jack Hickson.

Oct 20, 2012 - Wonder what happened to this once formidable adversary:?: Although he brought out the worst of us with his hillbilly like reasoning for most things.

No change there then.



​

​

​

You remind me of a meeting of the Vancouver based Blue Water Cruising Association to discuss steel boats, I went to once. A guy in a pin striped suit ,and gold cufflinks ,selling quarter million dollar steel imitations of plastic boats, called "Amazons" was also there. Pin striped suit and gold cufflinks? He was definitely no hill billy .I was in my jeans and T shirt . Must be a hillbilly!
He lasted roughly 3 years, until a guy with a lawsuit for his Amazon having logitudinals tacked in with a half inch tack every 3 feet, instead of the 2 inch weld very 6 inches the contract called for, and no inside welds on most of the hull and cabin seams, and no inside epoxy under the foam, etc etc. caught up with him.He quickly declared bankruptcy and disappeared.
But...But... but, how can that be? He had a pin stripe suit and...and... and ... "GOLD CUFFLINKS?" And an office? And very "Professional "looking brochures! Not a hillbilly ! I thought only hillbillys in jeans did that sort of thing. But how did I get sucked in ?Surely pin striped suits and gold cufflinks say it all? Don't they?
After all, Bernie Made Off wore a pin striped suit ,and ..and ..and...gold cufflinks?
Meanwhile, I kept building boats, for many very happy owners, for decades after.
Don't let snobbery priorities cloud your judgement, and kill your cruising freedom.

What happened was a guy with no boat building hands on experience, no ocean cruising experience, or long term cruising experience of any kind, no living aboard, nor long term boat maintenance experience, had been using his very good self promotion skills to portray himself as a guru on things he had no hands on experience with. When I pointed out his lack of experience in the subject he was claiming to be a guru on, he had his groupies and himself attack every single post I made, anywhere on the net, regardless of content.
Rolleyes is one of them.
It got to the point where, on many sites, only those with zero hands on experience in steel boats was allowed to make any comment on them .
Fortunately, the origami boats site has kept them from sabotaging the discussion there, altho they have tried, many times.

 

[Brent Swain]

About 20 yachts overwintered in Puerto Williams in 2017... steel, alloy, grp, timber.....

The yachts in the charter trade to the peninsula , which are between 45 and 70 foot, are almost without exception steel or alloy. The one exception was an Ocean 60 that was down here for a few years.

Cruising yachts? ((EDITED BIT .... Cruising yachts going through the Channels ... not to the peninsula )) As many grp as metal and more alloy than steel.

One thing I have observed in recent years is a reduction in the number of Aust/N Am/ and UK yachts with the majority of boats being from continental Europe. Another observation.... of any single class Ovnis predominate these days.

Seems many Ovnis aren't insulated , one just returned last week from Montt having gone up through the channels in the autumn. She has no insulation. Not my idea of fun...

Me? Ive been in Pto Montt and southern Chile since arriving from NZ in 2004 - apart from a spell up around BA , a couple of Falkland trips and a trip to NZ and back in May 2014/ Feb 16.

My GRP Sealord has given a good number of smacks to terra firma in that time... hasn't fallen to bits and sunk yet...

Insulation makes a huge improvement in comfort and dryness on any boat, including plastic. Those who have used the spray foam kits, which look like a couple of propane bottles attached, say they are easy to use.Best to foam right down to the floor boards, but never the bilge.
Tried other forms of insulation. Not so good.

 

[Brent Swain]

For the last 36 I detailed, I found an extremely simple way to position the bulkhead and interior tabs. I tightened a piece of rigging wire from the waterline aft to the waterline at the bow, with a comealong. I measured and marked the longitudinal positions of the bulkheads with masking tape ,on the wire.
I then taped a dollar store laser to a square ,and with the laser 90 degrees to the wire , I pointed out the locations of the bulkhead tabs with the laser, while the owner marked their positions on the hull. Took mere minutes to mark out all the bulkhead tabs, extremely accurately, all 35 of them. This would work on any boat, including plastic or cold molded.
Kinda kills the argument for spending an extra year on frames, so you would have something to attach bulkheads to, to save minutes locating bulkhead tab locations.
A laser can be used in other positions for counter tops, etc, altho ,with such accurate bulkheads, a big square off them is good enough.
Much easier to bolt bulkheads in before foaming. Best mask them well, as overspray is hard to get off.

 

[Tranona]

Yes ,if a boat is poorly painted it will rust thin and hole more easily.Simple solution, an adequate paint job.
When Bernard's Joshua ended up on a Baja Beach, a plastic boat landed on top and disintegrated .Joshua was not even holed, but had huge dents, which would have been huge holes, had she been plastic. She sailed on.
The claim that plastic is tougher than steel is ludicrous. Would you really build a wooden hull with plastic fastenings, rather than metal?
Whack a plastic hull with a steel pick axe ( plenty of plastic hulls littering our beaches around here)
Now try whacking a steel 3/16th plate with a plastic pick axe.

Nobody is suggesting that one of the benefits of a steel hull is strength of the material against puncturing.

However your description of GRP hulls strength is so far from the truth as to be ludicrous. There may well be cheap, thin boats made in your part of the world, but that is not normal elsewhere and particularly in Europe.

I have already directed you towards the series of experiments carried out by Yachting Monthly to find out the vulnerability of GRP cruising boats to damage and incidents that might cause it to sink. Repeated hammering against the topsides with a 14lb sledge failed to puncture the hull. Many hulls now have aramid fibres such as Kevlar (used for bullet proof vests) incorporated in the composite layup in vulnerable areas such as the bows. This is in "ordinary" cheap boats such as the two Bavarias I have owned - not exotic expedition boats.

Every time you write about GRP you display your massive ignorance about how they are built. This of course leads the reader to the inevitable conclusion that anything you write has little value as it it is never based on evidence, always on anecdote and your distorted view of the world.

 

[Robin]

ENOUGH! ENOUGH ALREADY!:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:

I'm going to hibernate until the thread dies, hopefully before I do. There is no point in debating with drunks or brick walls let alone steel ones. Closed minds and deaf ears to anything other than repetitious preaching is counter productive in the extreme but the message just does not sink in even rust deep.

Local gas station has a bumper sticker that says 'on a calm night you can hear a Ford rust' I'm going to buy one to stick on my next (grp) boat.:biggrin-new::biggrin-new::biggrin-new:

Bye Bye Brent have a great Christmas up there on the top left coast.

 

[rotrax]

Merry Christmas all- including our deluded steel boat fanatic.

There are none so blind as those who will not see...............................................

I am also done here. As Robin says, you cant get sense from a brick wall.

After the holiday period I must address the seriously rusty bits of my steel boat-all around the portlights.

 

[Kelpie]

...and he still didn't answer my question...

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I don't think I have seen fire safety mentioned as a benefit of steel in this thread. Anyone fancy having a fire aboard your plastic boat in mid pacific?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I don't think I have seen fire safety mentioned as a benefit of steel in this thread. Anyone fancy having a fire aboard your plastic boat in mid pacific?

With respect, you're deluding yourself if you think you're going to survive a fire on any boat, steel or plastic....

In case of fire, if you can't put it out VERY QUICKLY, then the dinghy or life-raft is your only option.

I note that some people choose not to carry a life-raft.

And I agree with Robin.

Enough is enough.

 

[lpdsn]

A simple google of Brent Swain.

Wow, he's world famous: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/178877-shit-brent-swain-says/

And apparently banned from Sailing Anarchy. That is some achievement.

 

[Brent Swain]

With respect, you're deluding yourself if you think you're going to survive a fire on any boat, steel or plastic....

In case of fire, if you can't put it out VERY QUICKLY, then the dinghy or life-raft is your only option.

I note that some people choose not to carry a life-raft.

And I agree with Robin.

Enough is enough.

I had a fire on board last year, while underway. An exhaust pipe broke, and burned thru a 2x4, and burned a couple sq feet of foam. I sealed the boat airtight, and the fire went out quickly. Trying to fight a fire with the hatches open, at sea, is suicidal. My brother , a lifetime fireman, said he has seen fires in department stores, with plenty of combustibles around, go out quickly, as soon as it ran out of oxygen. Even a big department store didn't have enough oxygen to support the fire for very long ( as long as the windows don't break).
I said on to the next anchorage , no problem ! Better than ending up in a rubber ducky at sea, as some suggested I should have done. (" Wisdom" they call that!)
A friend had an oil stove overflow on a steel boat, and burn a couple of sq feet of foam and plywood, before running out of oxygen and going out, despite there being many gallons of stove oil spilled and unburned. The fire didn't even last long enough to burn thru the wooden hatches and plastic vents , right next to it.

 

[Brent Swain]

Nobody is suggesting that one of the benefits of a steel hull is strength of the material against puncturing.

However your description of GRP hulls strength is so far from the truth as to be ludicrous. There may well be cheap, thin boats made in your part of the world, but that is not normal elsewhere and particularly in Europe.

I have already directed you towards the series of experiments carried out by Yachting Monthly to find out the vulnerability of GRP cruising boats to damage and incidents that might cause it to sink. Repeated hammering against the topsides with a 14lb sledge failed to puncture the hull. Many hulls now have aramid fibres such as Kevlar (used for bullet proof vests) incorporated in the composite layup in vulnerable areas such as the bows. This is in "ordinary" cheap boats such as the two Bavarias I have owned - not exotic expedition boats.

Every time you write about GRP you display your massive ignorance about how they are built. This of course leads the reader to the inevitable conclusion that anything you write has little value as it it is never based on evidence, always on anecdote and your distorted view of the world.

Yes boats built this side of the pond are abysmally weak compared to those built in England and Europe. I did replace a rudder and skeg on a steel Finot design which was abysmally designed. It was simply welded to 1/8th inch hull skin, with only tiny bits of flat bar inside. I built a new one, which ran right thru the hull plate and into the cockpit sole, giving it two point support. This is the only reliable way to get adequate strength from a high aspect skeg.
They have designed keels which fall off, so no surprise there.
Sail magazine had an article last year by Tom Cunliffe, a very experienced cruiser, called" Dream Boat or Derelict", which described the many pitfalls of plastic boats, rotten deck cores( which my plastic boat friends have all been struggling with) chain plates bolted to rotten bulkheads (ditto) bulkheads coming away from hulls( ditto), water coming in after a collision with a rock ( which many steel boats have no consequences whatever from), thru hull problems (a non issue on steel boats with welded in stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls), the list goes on.

 

[Robin]

NO further comment, .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t9ZJK-vc-I

 

[rotrax]

I had a fire on board last year, while underway. An exhaust pipe broke, and burned thru a 2x4, and burned a couple sq feet of foam. I sealed the boat airtight, and the fire went out quickly. Trying to fight a fire with the hatches open, at sea, is suicidal. My brother , a lifetime fireman, said he has seen fires in department stores, with plenty of combustibles around, go out quickly as soon as it ran out of oxygen. Even a big department store didn't have enough oxygen to support the fire for very long ( as long as the windows don't break).
A friend had an oil stove overflow on a steel boat, and burn a couple of sq feet of foam and plywood, before running out of oxygen and going out, despite there being many gallons of stove oil spilled and unburned. The fire didn't even last long enough to burn thru the wooden hatches and plastic vents , right next to it.

I cant imagine not hearing-and taking action to repair-a broken exhaust pipe before it caused a fire.

If it was leaking against a two by four timber long enough to set it alight, how come an experienced guy like you, with all your skills and sea miles, opinions on just about any subject, was deficient in this department.

I suppose that I am attuned to engine noises and mechanical defects. If an exhaust pipe broke while I was doing 150 MPH on the Isle of Man TT circuit and dragged on the track, it would soon chuck me off.

I heard a training boat leaving Falmouths Premier Marina, a Bavaria 34. It did not sound right, so I took a look. No water leaving the exhaust outlet. I called the Skipper and Instructor who turned the seacock on. He had given the job of checking the engine, drive belt, oil, seacock to a trainee. The trainee had turned the seacock off, not checked that it was on.

So, I can tell if another boats exhaust sounds wrong, but you could not tell YOUR own boats exhaust was defective.

All my faith in you has gone, like smoke on a breeze........................................................