Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[rotrax]

I have seen beautiful looking mig and tig welds break, having very little penetration ,but never stick welds. Tig and Mig needs flat calm, dry conditions, and super clean metal, which is what makes a building site for an aluminium boat so expensive, altho one friend built a beautiful departure 40 in aluminium, outside, by picking only perfect conditions for welding .
Took him a long, long time.
Stick welding is extremely forgiving of conditions ,and can be done anywhere, with no chance of weld failure.It is also the cheapest. The first 36 I built was welded by a first time welder. It pounded for 16 days on a west coast Baja beach in up to 12 foot surf, and was pulled off thru 12 ft surf, with no weld failures of any kind.

Well Brent 'ol buddy, I'm just a humble Mechanic with a lot of expertise in Oxy Acetylene welding. I have trusted my life to welds I have made on race circuits all over the world.

Stick welding, done that, never had one of mine fail.

BUT I HAVE SEEN PLENTY THAT HAVE!

My old mate Jim Claridge welded most of Eric Broadly's Lola FI chassis in the 60's, including the special that John Surtees fitted with the Honda engine that won the F1 World Title for him.

That one was Nickel Bronze welded T45 steel tube, welded using the Calor gasfluxer which another mates Dad invented and sold to Calor.

Jims welding was tested at the Indianappolis Brickyard when Graham Hill won the Indy 500. Nickel Bronze welding was said to be inferior by the Yanks. Jim mitred and welded a 3/4 inch tube to a 1 inch tube. The yanks clamped it in a vice and shackled a winch to it. The steel tube failed before the weld-which the Yanks called brazing!

There is, as we all know, many types of welding. Apart from quality of material, the most important thing is the operator of the equipment.

Its time to stop digging Brent-the hole is already too deep..................................

 

[Brent Swain]

Well Brent 'ol buddy, I'm just a humble Mechanic with a lot of expertise in Oxy Acetylene welding. I have trusted my life to welds I have made on race circuits all over the world.

Stick welding, done that, never had one of mine fail.

BUT I HAVE SEEN PLENTY THAT HAVE!

My old mate Jim Claridge welded most of Eric Broadly's Lola FI chassis in the 60's, including the special that John Surtees fitted with the Honda engine that won the F1 World Title for him.

That one was Nickel Bronze welded T45 steel tube, welded using the Calor gasfluxer which another mates Dad invented and sold to Calor.

Jims welding was tested at the Indianappolis Brickyard when Graham Hill won the Indy 500. Nickel Bronze welding was said to be inferior by the Yanks. Jim mitred and welded a 3/4 inch tube to a 1 inch tube. The yanks clamped it in a vice and shackled a winch to it. The steel tube failed before the weld-which the Yanks called brazing!

There is, as we all know, many types of welding. Apart from quality of material, the most important thing is the operator of the equipment.

Its time to stop digging Brent-the hole is already too deep..................................

Yes , stating the facts observed over 4 decades of stee lboat building, designing cruising , maintaining and living aboard inevitably will collide with the statements of plastic boat myth pedlars , who's info is based on old wives tales from plastic boat salesmen .It would be a complete disevice to cruisers to let the false old wives tales overide 4 decades of such experience. Such falsehoods have already cost far too many lives.
You remind me of the critic on another site, who said:
"I haven't owned, cruised in nor built a steel boat, but I know all there is to know about them, because I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts."
Another, like you, said:
I welded up a lot of caterpillar parts, so I know all there is to know about building steel hulls."
A kid I trained , who later became a highly qualified, professional welder, said:
"When it comes to exaggerating and embellishing their importance and knowledge, and how critical it all is ,most welders are so completely full of crap."

 

[prv]

I have never seen single weld break on mild steel on small cruising boats, ever, including some horrendously bad welds.

I have seen beautiful looking mig and tig welds break, having very little penetration

There seems to be some inconsistency here...

In any case, the faulty welds on Mollymawk were stick welds, evident from the fact that as well as the very poor penetration they also had a lot of slag inclusion.

Pete

 

[Brent Swain]

There seems to be some inconsistency here...

In any case, the faulty welds on Mollymawk were stick welds, evident from the fact that as well as the very poor penetration they also had a lot of slag inclusion.

Pete

Nothing blows slag out like 6011, nor penetrates better.
You guys have metric equivalent to 6011.
Weld one side and grind from the other, until you hit solid metal, and use 6011 and you wont have any slag inclusion.
I saw a Roberts 35 which had extreme slag inclusion, some of the worst welding I have ever seen. She has been cruising for many years now, no problems. Even the worst welds are far stronger than plastic, or fastenings in wood.
Are you the Tasmanian Pete, who has been working on a Colvin Saugeen Witch for many years , to get to where I get in a couple of weeks?

 

[rotrax]

Yes , stating the facts observed over 4 decades of stee lboat building, designing cruising , maintaining and living aboard inevitably will collide with the statements of plastic boat myth pedlars , who's info is based on old wives tales from plastic boat salesmen .It would be a complete disevice to cruisers to let the false old wives tales overide 4 decades of such experience. Such falsehoods have already cost far too many lives.
You remind me of the critic on another site, who said:
"I haven't owned, cruised in nor built a steel boat, but I know all there is to know about them, because I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts."
Another, like you, said:
I welded up a lot of caterpillar parts, so I know all there is to know about building steel hulls."
A kid I trained , who later became a highly qualified, professional welder, said:
"When it comes to exaggerating and embellishing their importance and knowledge, and how critical it all is ,most welders are so completely full of crap."[/QUOTE


But I said nor implied none of the above.

I was taught welding by really good welders, backed up by Tech College theory.

You are the one who has now started knocking Argon and Tig welding, which, in certain circumstances is far superior to any other kind of welding.

You are stuck in a ever revolving loop of :- " If its not a steel boat its crap "

All boats are good.

Some are better than others.

I'll tell you one thing Brent-if I offered to swop my GRP motorsailer with your boat, you would be sorely tempted.......................................................

 

[Brent Swain]

Yes , stating the facts observed over 4 decades of stee lboat building, designing cruising , maintaining and living aboard inevitably will collide with the statements of plastic boat myth pedlars , who's info is based on old wives tales from plastic boat salesmen .It would be a complete disevice to cruisers to let the false old wives tales overide 4 decades of such experience. Such falsehoods have already cost far too many lives.
You remind me of the critic on another site, who said:
"I haven't owned, cruised in nor built a steel boat, but I know all there is to know about them, because I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts."
Another, like you, said:
I welded up a lot of caterpillar parts, so I know all there is to know about building steel hulls."
A kid I trained , who later became a highly qualified, professional welder, said:
"When it comes to exaggerating and embellishing their importance and knowledge, and how critical it all is ,most welders are so completely full of crap."[/QUOTE


But I said nor implied none of the above.

I was taught welding by really good welders, backed up by Tech College theory.

You are the one who has now started knocking Argon and Tig welding, which, in certain circumstances is far superior to any other kind of welding.

You are stuck in a ever revolving loop of :- " If its not a steel boat its crap "

All boats are good.

Some are better than others.

I'll tell you one thing Brent-if I offered to swop my GRP motorsailer with your boat, you would be sorely tempted.......................................................

Stock plastic boats here are a dime a dozen with many being abandoned or given away .I could buy half a dozen any time. All of my clients have owned them,and would never go back, after having experienced the safety, peace of mind and warm, dry, leak free comfort of steel.
So you claim that your plastic motor sailer experience makes you more qualified to give advice on steel boats, than someone with four decades of building, designing, crossing oceans in , maintaining and living aboard steel boats?
Your credibility is gone, non existent, on steel boats!
Yes, tig welds can be excellent, but are much easier to get wrong, and screw up than stick, and demand perfect conditions.
Yes, some boats are better than others ,plastic is better for leaving in a marina most of the time, occasional, part time sailing, steel for rough use, in less than perfect conditions, as a "way of life, full time" use.

 

[rotrax]

Stock plastic boats here are a dime a dozen with many being abandoned or given away .I could buy half a dozen any time. All of my clients have owned them,and would never go back, after having experienced the safety, peace of mind and warm, dry, leak free comfort of steel.
So you claim that your plastic motor sailer experience makes you more qualified to give advice on steel boats, than someone with four decades of building, designing, crossing oceans in , maintaining and living aboard steel boats?
Your credibility is gone, non existent, on steel boats!
Yes, tig welds can be excellent, but are much easier to get wrong, and screw up than stick, and demand perfect conditions.
Yes, some boats are better than others ,plastic is better for leaving in a marina most of the time, occasional, part time sailing, steel for rough use, in less than perfect conditions, as a "way of life, full time" use.

There you go again.

I am not supporting any boat is better stuff. I am just challenging your jaundiced opinion that if it aint steel its NFG.

My GRP motorsailer would cost in excess of of $300,000 US as is. Check them out.

Just done 1700 NM of challenging sailing around the South and West coasts of Ireland.

Two huge refrigerator cabinets, 40 litre freezer, 8KW Westerbeke Genset, 900 litres of fuel, Webasto heating, 600AH of AGM batteries.

She will do for me.

You keep plugging away old chap-like the Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses there is always the chance of a conversion...........................

And, as I have said to you several times, I also own a Hartley 32 in steel.

And, as an ex owner and maintainer of several steel hull and complete steel canal narrow boats, I do have some direct experience.

Last year in Evans Bay Boat Clubs yard two guys were working very hard on de-rusting their steel yachts.

They are obviously complete idiots for not speaking to you and getting you to design and build them a boat!

 

[Kelpie]

Grossly outdated building methods from the 50s has made steel non competitive ,price wise. A client had a quote from a commercial builder for one of my 36 footers, and was quoted $250K for just the hull and deck, which my methods have enabled me to do for around $17 K.
For what the vast majority of owners use a boat for , 3 weeks vacation , and the odd weekend ,plastic is definitely superior. For full time cruising as a way of life, often well off the beaten path, where steel is superior, the market is extremely tiny.

I'm finding your answer a bit hard to decipher- whose building method is outdated? Do you mean GRP, or steel designs that you don't endorse?

I hate to put words in people's mouths, but I'm going to take a stab at what you are trying to say, and it goes like this: steel boats can be built much cheaper than GRP ones, only if you have access to abundant free skilled labour. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

[rogerthebodger]

I'm finding your answer a bit hard to decipher- whose building method is outdated? Do you mean GRP, or steel designs that you don't endorse?

I hate to put words in people's mouths, but I'm going to take a stab at what you are trying to say, and it goes like this: steel boats can be built much cheaper than GRP ones, only if you have access to abundant free skilled labour. Is that what you're suggesting?

I gave you some of my views in post #206. Any comment.


As far a welding. I consider myself a reasonably competent welder and have welded all kind of structural steelwork. during my training it was stick or gas welding. now use tig for thinner stuff and stainless but stick for structural.

I know lots of people who can stick 2 bits of steel to gether but it strikes still to make a good weld with proper strength. This is why you can only use "coded" welders for specialised jobs.

Other than the skill of the operator for a proper weld you need the correct rods wit dry dry dry coating. any dampness will effect the weld. The other is a properly shaped joint.

I know of Mollymawk and where it was originally built. The quality of the average "welder" in South Africa is very poor and very little training is given. This is why I do all my own welding and I get it wrong some times but I always remove the slag and inspect weld after so I have have got it wrong I can grind it out and re weld the joint.

This skill costs money and particularly when welding for some one else. This is again why "coded" welders must be used at a higher pay grade.

As far as mi and tig are concerned welding outside in windy conditions will blow the protective gas away from the joint and there damage the joint not ideal when building a boat outside as most non professional steel boats are build.

Brent does need to stop digging and accept that not every one will agree with his point of view and just agree to differ.

 

[prv]

Nothing blows slag out like 6011, nor penetrates better.
You guys have metric equivalent to 6011.
Weld one side and grind from the other, until you hit solid metal, and use 6011 and you wont have any slag inclusion.

You started this by claiming that steel boat welds never fail. I gave you three examples where they did. Address that before trying to change the subject.

Are you the Tasmanian Pete

No.

Pete

 

[prv]

I know of Mollymawk and where it was originally built. The quality of the average "welder" in South Africa is very poor and very little training is given.

Supposedly the person who originally built Mollymawk was better known as a rabbit breeder. He built and sold a number of hulls, though. Presumably they all have faulty welding.

Pete

 

[john_morris_uk]

You started this by claiming that steel boat welds never fail. I gave you three examples where they did. Address that before trying to change the subject.



No.

Pete

Its a bit like they never rust - except when they do they weren't treated properly.

Oxymoronic...

 

[Kelpie]

I gave you some of my views in post #206. Any comment.

Well I was hoping that I would get an answer from the man himself.
You're saying that for big production runs, rather than one offs or DIY builds, steel boats are more expensive to produce than GRP ones (I don't know if BS agrees with that).
I'm sure you are right. But equally, the majority of people, and that includes the users and readers of this forum, are perfectly happy with GRP. If steel costs more, then you need to settle for a smaller or older boat for the same money. Not a good tradeoff for those of us who don't expect to be mowing down whales on regular basis.

 

[Brent Swain]

I will answer that one.

One time boats were built of wood which is very labour intensive requiring quite a lot of skill

Then boats were built of ferro cement where the skill for the steel frame construction was also labour intensive but required a lower skill level until the plastering

Then came GRP construction over a simple frame like ply construction but requires skill and was labour intensive.

Then the molded GRP construction which required skill and labour to make the mold but then the hulls cam be made quite quickly with a lower skill level. This reduced the cost of construction as it could be made in a "production line" type factory.

Today complete GRP boats are produced quite quickly and at a lower cost due to production line techniques being used as the car industry made cars a lot cheaper with limitations customisation.

Steel cones into the "jobbing" type construction when it is not easy to mass produce and becomes a low volume construction and thus more costly.

Also today we have gone away for the DIY boat construction as was the case in my younger days and people want it all and want it not and as less inclined to do out a build it themselves.

This is in my view why GRP boats are very popular.

As for steel boat construction. It requires quite a high level of skill and heavy lifting equipment for a boat of amy size. It also needs equipment that at one time was not in the normal DIYers tool kits now its lesser so. As a time served degreed mechanical design engineer I find it easy and have the skill from my long years in mechanical engineering. Not all people have that.

Its also human nature to defend you choose when "attached" as Brent has in effect. I view is it your choice and it not up to me to change your mind and in fact it could be considered offensive of me to try to change your mine all I do is point out my reasons for my choice then its up to you to consider then in terms of your own context.

Brent unfortunately in my view does do a bit too for some.

My methods require very little in the way of equipment ,and no heavy lifting equipment. I have rarely had lifting equipment on the over 3 dozen boats I have put together, and haven't missed it. A simple buzzbox welder, a cutting torch ,some comealongs, angle grinder, hammers and a hydraulic jack are most of whats needed. Most of my clients say, after building one, they could easily do the next one themselves. No ,it doesn't take lot of skill, but those who have a lot of skill try to constantly put their knowledge on a pedestal.
My methods drastically reduce the amount of skill required, to get a fair and seaworthy boat.
Most of my clients come away with a good knowledge of metal fabrication, which has ended up in careers for some.
2 days to put a hull together, and a week to do the shell, hull ,decks ,cabin, cockpit ,wheelhouse , keel, rudder and skeg, with only two people working on it, only one with extensive metal working experience ,is not exactly "labour intensive."
Don't think any two people could put together a fair plastic hull in that amount of time without ,or including building the mold.
Bob Perry gave the cost of a mold for a 37 footer as $300K.
A big lump sum, for a one off, or a few off ,plastic boats.
The alternative, some kind of male mold, is a huge amount of labour intensive, and very unpleasant grinding and filling.
Steel for a 36 shell is around $9,000, a fraction the cost of materials for a plastic boat.
The reason mass production of steel boats has not caught on, is the fact that they cling tenaciously to 1950's building methods, plastic is better for what 90% of boats are used for , 3 or 4 weeks a year cruising, and sitting in marinas the rest of the time, a small market for full time, way of life style cruising boats , and massive promotion of "plastic as the only option."
Meta of France has come as close as anyone to mass production of steel boats.
Sorry for the delay in my responding , but having a life beyond the internet, I don't have the time to weed thru all the posts on any subject. I value cruising ,hunting and fishing far more.
(Silly me!)

 

[gertha]

A simple google of Brent Swain.

 

[Robin]

A simple google of Brent Swain.

Lots of links to SAilnet , Facebook etc, worth a looksee if you have more time to waste.

Sailnet. aka Jack Hickson.

Oct 20, 2012 - Wonder what happened to this once formidable adversary:?: Although he brought out the worst of us with his hillbilly like reasoning for most things.

No change there then.



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​

​

 

[rogerthebodger]

Lots of links to SAilnet , Facebook etc, worth a looksee if you have more time to waste.

Sailnet. aka Jack Hickson.

Oct 20, 2012 - Wonder what happened to this once formidable adversary:?: Although he brought out the worst of us with his hillbilly like reasoning for most things.

No change there then.



​

​

​

As some one who has been involved in structural steel design and manufacture with as you all know owning a steel boat I have been interested in Brent's "easy construction method" but only found pictures of finished boats.

I just found this site that does show construction of a 35 ft sail boat in quite an amount of detail.

Basicly it a frameless type construction in a similar to the stitch and tape method developed by jack halt and barry bucknell in designing of the mirror dingy in 1962/3 I think. The only difference is that the steel plates are progressively pulled together and tack welded in to the full shape is formed and the joines fully welded.

As has been said before the quality of the weld is the utmost importance and not anyone can in my view do proper welds and was the case with boat Mollymawk that had a bad weld split when it hit a reef.

Welds can be inspected using ultrasonic crack detection equipment for finding inclusions but the average builder will not have that kind of equipment. Mig is a better type of welding for the less experienced as there is no possibility of slag inclusion. Mig is less suitable for outside welding as any air movement could disrupt the shielding gas.

This is the web site and there seems to be lots of pictures linked to in the text.

http://www.sv-mom.com/construction.html

Out of interest this power cat was built by a friend in GRP in a similar by laying out flat sheets with lap joints to form the basic shape of the hulls then glassed inside to join the sheets together. I started building a little dingy using again flat sheets

Steel boat kits are available with the shaped steel panels laser cut to shape by a similar stach welding method. I have also seem kits available stitch and tape laser cut plywood boats mainly cats.

One comment I read in the above web site was all the tabs that needed to be made and welded to the hull/deck for attachment of the internal wood work. This is not required with framed (old method) and I don' t think Brent includes this in his construction times. You cannot compare home built and factory built steel boats as the home built will not include labour and all the other costs in running a structural steel fabrication shop. I agree hat a one off mold for a GRP boat is just as costly but most GRP of the type most sailed today boats have some kind of production run so the mold cost is proportioned over the production run.

Brent you are not comparing apples with apples and how many people today would have the time and inclination of available space in the UK to construction their own boat from a GRP hull let alone a pile of steel as shown in the above site.

 

[Brent Swain]

A simple google of Brent Swain.

Don't forget to check the latest posts by Prairie Made and Matt Malone on the origami boats site.
The rest of my critics have absolutely zero hands on experience in the subject of their criticism.

 

[Kelpie]

You never did reply to my question: why don't the mass volume builders use steel?

 

[Robin]

Don't forget to check the latest posts by Prairie Made and Matt Malone on the origami boats site.
The rest of my critics have absolutely zero hands on experience in the subject of their criticism.

the 'criticisms' you see mostly relate to your constant preaching of a one sided monologue decrying anything except steel boats as being unsuited for anything more than mere marina weekending. You might not realise but you truly are your own worst enemy, because of your flat out refusal to listen or consider anything other than your own views. Discussions and debate will always result in differences., but go absolutely nowhere when one side gets so firmly entrenched as to be simply ignored Sorry if that is unkind.. but it is true. All boats are a compromise and information is king not dictation.


Happy Christmas regardless :encouragement: