Robin
Well-Known Member
This one a good example? 
Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Imagine yourself looking at rusted through plating on your steel boat, realising that the corrosion was so extensive that there was nothing to weld onto within easy reach, and wishing you’d bought a GRP boat that didn’t rust.
Emotive arguments can work both ways Brent.
In the extremely unlikely event of me ending up treading water because of some catastrophic failure of the hull of my GRP boat, it will be only for the few seconds my life raft takes to be launched automatically by the Hamar release and inflate itself.
Whereas I can confidently say EVERY steel boat ever built suffers from corrosion to a greater or lesser extent. It has to be continuously monitored and dealt with.
Wisdom is all about assessing the risk and ensuring it’s managed appropriately.
Steel is lovely and strong but it’s not perfect and throw away emotive comments don’t help your cause.
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rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
This shows the damage to a boat that had a whale breach on top of then in Cape Town.
This is a pic of GRP boats next to my mooring in Durban after the storm hit
This is a pic of GRP boats next to my mooring in Durban after the storm hit
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Why does this thread keep going round in circles?
99% of boat users are perfectly well served by production GRP boats which need minimal maintenance, are very forgiving of long periods of neglect, are cheap, light, easy to work with and repair, and perfectly adequate for the kind of sailing that most people do.
If you want to go off the beaten track, high latitudes, self sufficient multi-year cruising, then yes a steel boat looks quite compelling.
Is it just me, or is there a whiff of superiority about these steel boat advocates? Almost as though anybody who doesn't liveaboard and cross oceans is somehow not really a sailor at all, and therefore not entitled to their opinion about what hull material suits them best.
A bit like people who do the school run in a Chelsea tractor... yes their Range Rover might be a good all terrain expedition vehicle but it's a b*tch to park in Tesco...
99% of boat users are perfectly well served by production GRP boats which need minimal maintenance, are very forgiving of long periods of neglect, are cheap, light, easy to work with and repair, and perfectly adequate for the kind of sailing that most people do.
If you want to go off the beaten track, high latitudes, self sufficient multi-year cruising, then yes a steel boat looks quite compelling.
Is it just me, or is there a whiff of superiority about these steel boat advocates? Almost as though anybody who doesn't liveaboard and cross oceans is somehow not really a sailor at all, and therefore not entitled to their opinion about what hull material suits them best.
A bit like people who do the school run in a Chelsea tractor... yes their Range Rover might be a good all terrain expedition vehicle but it's a b*tch to park in Tesco...
Tin Tin
Well-Known Member
That's my impression too. And I mistakenly thought that such a feeling of superiority was reserved for catamaran owners.
Anyway, since I was responsible for starting all this nonsense, here's an update: we've put in an offer (subject to survey) on a GRP boat.
Our offer was accepted, and provided the survey goes well, we should be taking possession of our 'new boat' early in the new year.
Robin
Well-Known Member
That's my impression too. And I mistakenly thought that such a feeling of superiority was reserved for catamaran owners.
Anyway, since I was responsible for starting all this nonsense, here's an update: we've put in an offer (subject to survey) on a GRP boat.
Our offer was accepted, and provided the survey goes well, we should be taking possession of our 'new boat' early in the new year.
Congrats. Just make sure to avoid waters where whales are rampant and B.S ( No not BS, B.S the steel PR man) abounds:biggrin-new:
GHA
Well-Known Member
Completely agree !! :encouragement:
D
Deleted member 36384
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YBW forum user Brent Swain may or may not have a vested interest. There is a Brent Swain associated with selling CDs and books on steel boatbuilding, origami method to be specific. The same pattern of behavior exists on other forums such as Sailing Anarchy and I think Boat Design Net and Cruising Forum, if I remember correctly but could be wrong. It could simply be an attempt at getting search engines to priorities products or posts when folks use search engines for steel boat information, especially design and build. The YBW forum pops up quite often at the top of Google searches when sailing matters are searched for. Of course, Brent Swain, is just a user name and may have no relationship at all with any actual person called Brent Swain or a seller of CDs and books; YBW user called Brent Swain might only be a steel boat enthusiast.
It is simple, if frequent readers of the thread see a post by Brent Swain and they believe the subject has already been discussed, then do not answer it. The thread will soon drop off the bottom.
However, in my early days of sailing I was full on for a steel boat. If nothing else, for me, the thread has raised an early conviction, but wholly unsuitable for the type of sailing I do, in steel again. Early retirement is looming and son wants to sail around the world via the capes (a loose idea that might just take root). Personally, Brent Swain posts, even if it is a ploy, are harmless in the grand scheme of things, it is also entertaining as well as a bit educational. What's not to like about that!
Brent Swain
N/A
Yes , the 99% of boat owners who leave their boats in marinas over 90% of the time , are well served by plastic boats, which are far superior to steel; for that particular use .
My posts are in response to the instant disinformation campaigns , which automatically spring up, anytime anyone advocates steel as a long distance cruising boat material, consisting of attacks and disinformation from those who have absolutely no hands on, decades long experience with building ,maintaining crossing oceans in and living aboard steel boats.
Of all my critics on BD,net , only one had any steel boat experience, and only he had any cruising experience in one , that being limited coastal cruising only. On sailing anarchy none had any, leaving it as a steel boat debate by those who knew almost nothing about the subject. Ditto sailnet.
Despite my having built ,lived aboard, maintained and crossed oceans in steel boats for over 4 decades, people who have done absolutely none of the above, keep telling me that I have got it all wrong!
And some keep believing them!
One would be wise to first determine the amount of long term, hands on experience ones source of advice on steel boats has, before believing his criticism of someone with decades of such hands on experience.
One of my main critics, a designer , charges his clients $175 an hour for advice on something he know almost nothing about, and has zero hands on experience with.
It is precisely following such advice which causes almost all the problems mentioned with steel boats. For the benefit of steel boat cruisers, I cant let their disinformation cost people their boats and cruising dreams, unchallenged, and uncorrected, as some keep suggesting I should.
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Brent Swain
N/A
This shows the damage to a boat that had a whale breach on top of then in Cape Town.
This is a pic of GRP boats next to my mooring in Durban after the storm hit
That steel boat survived ,which no plastic boat could have.
I wes recently told of a plastic boat which was instantly crushed by a similar incident.
Whale populations around here have been growing, rapidly.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is so untrue. The vast majority of boats including those used by long distance cruisers are made of GRP.
A small minority, mainly those who wander into the more hazardous parts of the world have a preference for steel.
Your unwillingness to recognise this leads you to bombard forums with untrue negative comments about the suitability of GRP for this use, despite the many years of hands on experience by people pointing this out to you.
Sound familiar?
Suggest you look in the mirror to see yourself doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.
Your advocacy of steel seems to be qualified by saying boats must be built your way using your designs and construction methods. However the majority of steel boats are not built that way, so invalidating your claims of superiority just because they use steel.
Constant repetition of the same claims does not make them true.
Brent Swain
N/A
Stating the facts is helpful to those who have the wisdom to see them
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
You only acknowledge things as ‘facts’ if they agree with your rather distorted view of the world and boats suitable for long term cruising. Instead of making you look wise, I suggest your one dimensional viewpoint as epitomised in your answers to my latest post is making you look foolish.
Making emotional appeals about hypothetical situations in mid Pacific isn’t a compelling case. When you stand back for a moment, you realise how silly the argument is. Your claims about how remarkably corrosion and maintenance free your boat is doesn’t square with my experience of steel boats nor others I’ve sailed with or heard of. (Isn’t it inconvenient to you that I’ve sailed lengthy passages on steel boats over the years, but it still hasn’t left me convinced they’re the most wonderful thing ever.)
Brent Swain
N/A
Tell the one surviving member of the Sleavin family that what she experienced was "hypothetical" or tell that to the the guy who had his boat sink under him after hitting a whale ,or the many others who had their boat sink under them ,or the survivors who had friends and family members lost at sea. Tell them that one is better off in mid ocean in a life raft, than in a slightly dented steel boat.
Many steel boat owners don't feel the need to have a life raft, as the chance of holing is extremely minimal. I never have.
It is you who have plastic myopia ,in your claim that a plastic boat is ones only reasonable option.
Yes, steel is more sensitive to screwups ,which are needlessly, far to common.
( largely, thanks to advice from those who have not figured it out yet).
That is the fault of the screwups, not the material.The fact that you only have experience with screwups, is not the fault of steel, as a building material.
I recently saw a steel boat which was solid rust from 6 inches above the waterline ,a boat which was much younger than mine. I have zero rust there.
The difference? Much much thicker epoxy, on super clean steel.
If you are having rust problems,then you are doing something wrong ,period!
Figure it out, and get it right, and you will have few problems.
Not being dead is worth far more than all the steel boat maintenance I have done over the last 4 decades ( Couple of hours a year ,average) as is the huge increase in peace of mind, while underway.
Many plastic boats rarely leave the marina, because it simply is not worth the stress of knowing you cant afford to bump things hard.
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Robin
Well-Known Member
Such blatant (advertising?) bias is not worth reading Even if some of it has merit you have killed your case stone dead by your non stop preaching:disgust:. When you listen to nobody why should anybody listen to you? When looking for another live aboard boat I had up to now excluded no materials, no designer no builder, I kept an open mind, but that has now changed and steel is completely off the list, well done and thanks for narrowing my list :encouragement:.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
The only interesting thing left in this thread is my amusement at Brents utter inability to either read my posts or understand them.
First of all, I've never said that plastic is the only reasonable option. I can see the value of steel construction, but I can also see its limitations. I can also see the value of GRP construction, but can also see its limitations. Another way of expressing Robins point of view is to say that people who are so one track minded that they lose sight of all other peoples point of view and continue to trot out the same old arguments, have lost their argument a long time ago.
Secondly, going to sea on Ocean passages without a life-raft is not something I would be suggesting or recommending or contemplating for one millisecond. First of all it would have been illegal on some of the boats I have been sailing as they were commercially coded and inspected. Even without the legal necessity, you've no idea when a flange or weld is 'possibly' going to give way. Plenty of steel boats have looked really smart and good, but under the (multi layers) of epoxy, there's a failure about to happen when they hit that semi-submerged container and being without a life-raft on an ocean crossing is not something I'd contemplate. Its foolhardiness to the point of stupidity in my humble opinion.
Trotting out the occasions when GRP boats have sunk is not a compelling argument but Brent keeps trying. Give it up Brent. People know better because there are thousands of boats sailing round the world made of GRP that don't sink in the way you describe. I freely acknowledge the risk of sinking, but I manage the risk on my current boat in ways already described. For high latitude sailing, in remote places, a well found steel boat has a lot going for it. Its not without its potential problems, but some people don't seem to want to admit that!
What I am not prepared to do is for someone who profits from the sale of his books and work on steel boats to continue to post blatant misinformation and allow it unchallenged. If Brent produces a BALANCED argument, perhaps he will be taken seriously? On his current track record I'm not holding my breath.
First of all, I've never said that plastic is the only reasonable option. I can see the value of steel construction, but I can also see its limitations. I can also see the value of GRP construction, but can also see its limitations. Another way of expressing Robins point of view is to say that people who are so one track minded that they lose sight of all other peoples point of view and continue to trot out the same old arguments, have lost their argument a long time ago.
Secondly, going to sea on Ocean passages without a life-raft is not something I would be suggesting or recommending or contemplating for one millisecond. First of all it would have been illegal on some of the boats I have been sailing as they were commercially coded and inspected. Even without the legal necessity, you've no idea when a flange or weld is 'possibly' going to give way. Plenty of steel boats have looked really smart and good, but under the (multi layers) of epoxy, there's a failure about to happen when they hit that semi-submerged container and being without a life-raft on an ocean crossing is not something I'd contemplate. Its foolhardiness to the point of stupidity in my humble opinion.
Trotting out the occasions when GRP boats have sunk is not a compelling argument but Brent keeps trying. Give it up Brent. People know better because there are thousands of boats sailing round the world made of GRP that don't sink in the way you describe. I freely acknowledge the risk of sinking, but I manage the risk on my current boat in ways already described. For high latitude sailing, in remote places, a well found steel boat has a lot going for it. Its not without its potential problems, but some people don't seem to want to admit that!
What I am not prepared to do is for someone who profits from the sale of his books and work on steel boats to continue to post blatant misinformation and allow it unchallenged. If Brent produces a BALANCED argument, perhaps he will be taken seriously? On his current track record I'm not holding my breath.
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Mr Cassandra
Well-Known Member
You don't post on Climate change as "Delfin" by any chance?
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Boats built from steel are very well suited for some conditions, and for some among us who have a morbid fear of hitting a pointy rock or being attacked by a whale.
I know this happens-the poor fellow who lost his lovely HR off Biscay was in my house recently collecting a used genny I sold on the "For Sale" Forum. A collision with a whale loosened the keel enough to have leakage too severe for the pumps to cope.
Another, older model of HR with an encapsulated keel, perhaps a different outcome.
I would bet that more steel boats are being fixed up wordwide percentage wise than boats in other materials. My own steel boat requires serious work around the badly designed windows. I must make the decision to do the job properly or fake it up for sale-its a cheapy so not worth spending loads of time and money.
My reasons for believing the above are simple.
Seawater, atmosphere and steel equals rust!
Agreed, it CAN be easy to fix. It can also be a bloody nightmare!
You see, we are not all perfectionists who can build a steel boat that only needs two hours maintainence each year, unlike a certain superhero on this subject...........................................
I know this happens-the poor fellow who lost his lovely HR off Biscay was in my house recently collecting a used genny I sold on the "For Sale" Forum. A collision with a whale loosened the keel enough to have leakage too severe for the pumps to cope.
Another, older model of HR with an encapsulated keel, perhaps a different outcome.
I would bet that more steel boats are being fixed up wordwide percentage wise than boats in other materials. My own steel boat requires serious work around the badly designed windows. I must make the decision to do the job properly or fake it up for sale-its a cheapy so not worth spending loads of time and money.
My reasons for believing the above are simple.
Seawater, atmosphere and steel equals rust!
Agreed, it CAN be easy to fix. It can also be a bloody nightmare!
You see, we are not all perfectionists who can build a steel boat that only needs two hours maintainence each year, unlike a certain superhero on this subject...........................................
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
I believe the White Star Line used to have a similar philosophy.
Brent Swain
N/A
Your suggestion that listing the advantages of steel is "advertising"suggests that I am the only one on the planet designing and building in steel. Is that why you equally "Advertise "plastic boats?
Your suggestion that, when someone who has 9 Pacific crossings in his wake ,most of it in steel, is still enthusiastic about the material, after 4 decades , is reason to reject it, is mind boggling, anti logic, as is your suggestion that one would be better off going by the advice of those with no such steel boat experience.
There are plenty of people who are just as enthusiastic about plastic ,wood , aluminium ,etc. Do you consider their enthusiasm for the material, reason to reject it?
That really doesn't leave you many options, does it?
If I believed other building methods, designs, and materials were better, I would use them, as would you.
I don't see you declaring that what you believe in is wrong, as you suggest I should.
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