Some mothers do have 'em..

[Marsupial]

Do any of you remember when the MV Tricolor sunk just off Dunkirk - December 2002?

Stay with me it is relevant

The boat was among three that collided in the same position within a couple of months, the coast guards positioned 4 picket boats around the wrecks while the salvage crews did their stuff.

We were in Dover marina or the English channel most weekends with the VHF on Ch16 as you do.

"Ship approaching . . . . . you must alter your course now, you are on collision course with a wreck" or words to that effect, this message gets repeated many many times with more urgency and each with no response.

We then hear muffled explosions from the wreck site, as the picket boats fire maroons at the bridge of said vessel.

Mayday mayday, this is MV . . . . at . . . . . we are under attack!

Picket boat, "now we have your attention sir would please alter course immediately you are about to hit a wreck" or words to that effect.

 

[jerrytug]

Classic!
(serious question):where can I buy some maroons?

 

[Sandy Bottom]

+1, getting to the stage of firing flares means a cock-up on both sides.

Fancy ensigns are an indication of financial status, nothing to do with seamanship.

Does that include the Blue Ensign flown by the Sea Cadets?

 

[bigwow]

I think the OP should go for some target practice, fired two shots and missed with both :encouragement:

 

[Seajet]

Does that include the Blue Ensign flown by the Sea Cadets?

Yes, considering there are supposed to be experienced adults in charge; a simple and obvious course alteration is the usual answer, not firing pyrotechnics at each other no matter how tempting it may be !

 

[Norman_E]

I think the OP should go for some target practice, fired two shots and missed with both :encouragement:

If I had intended hitting him with the second flare I would have done, he was close enough.

Shiny Shoe (and a few others) I suggest you re-read your ColRegs, particularly section 17 (a) (i) & (ii). My duty under (i) was to maintain my course and speed, which I did. I then did what was required under 17 (a) (ii) to avoid a collision, as my attempt to wake up the other boat had failed. Note that section 17 (a) (ii) does not expect or authorise the stand on vessel to take avoiding action before it becomes apparent that the other vessel is not taking action. Right up to the point where I turned away the motorboat could easily have turned to avoid me, had anyone been keeping watch. (I could not in fact see that there was nobody on watch until the boat had passed me, nor could I see its ensign until then.)

For those who think that I should have altered course when the motor boat was half a mile away, think again. Here it is quite normal that such boats do not alter course until quite close, generally about two cables or less. Very often all they do is slow to let you pass ahead, which makes the change in apparent bearing happen quite slowly.

 

[Vara]

+1, getting to the stage of firing flares means a cock-up on both sides.

Fancy ensigns are an indication of financial status, nothing to do with seamanship.

cobblers, to wear my Blue costs me £10 pa fee, hardly the realm of the plutocrat.

 

[capnsensible]

Ive got a blue ensign for my Moody 33.

Im thinking of changing my job title to 'Oligarch'.

 

[Seajet]

cobblers, to wear my Blue costs me £10 pa fee, hardly the realm of the plutocrat.

Cobblers to you, sunshine; why do you wear a blue ensign if not for financial posing ?

 

[Vara]

Cobblers to you, sunshine; why do you wear a blue ensign if not for financial posing ?

The whole of this post has been deleted as I do not wish to bother the moderators with my original carefully crafted reply.

However suffice it to say that there were references to front bottoms and the output of the McCains factory.

 

[capnsensible]

Cobblers to you, sunshine; why do you wear a blue ensign if not for financial posing ?

The warrant for my Blue Ensign was issued by the Royal Naval Sailing Association. I like to think that I wear the ensign with a sense of pride in my previous RN service.

I would very much enjoy to wear it for 'financial posing' coz then I would have wealth!

Anyway, the Superyachts that I see almost daily are generally registered in the UK and fly the Red. Does that make you a wongad poser too??

 

[onesea]

.. But how do they get blue ensigns?

Just before 1 PM today I was sailing on a port tack beam........ saw a motorboat fine on my port bow about three or four miles off...... I kept watch on it as it was on a steady bearing........ I was making about 6.5 knots and the motorboat considerably more....... At about a mile range it was clearly on or very close to collision course with me, but never showed any deviation in course. I fetched my flare gun and when it was about two cables away I fired a white flare. I then had to luff up hard to port to avoid collision, as any turn to starboard would then have just had me rammed broadside on. Had I held course he would have hit my port bow. I fired a second flare just before the boat passed about a boat length behind me (as I had turned onto a close hauled course to maintain way).....

The Facts, vessel approaching on near constant bearing fine on your port bow, under sail you are stand on vessel... You state it was clearly apparent to you that he was not altering course. Not personally being aware of the geography can you say if it is possible that you had the sun behind you which would make seeing you and your signal flares even more difficult? Even if the sun is high the reflection on the water can make it difficult to see.

With a few cables (2 cables is less than 500m, which really is not very far) distance you fire rocket flare... This will hardly be visible when on the way up if the "lookout" is inside and and only be visible briefly on the way down due to wheel house deck head above.

You then made a bold alteration of to course PORT, TOWARDS the vessel.

By the time you fired the second flare he was behind you?

Can I suggest your lesson learned should be:

1) DO NOT turn toward a vessel once it is at close range, most seamen will naturally turn to Starboard given a rush decision, you have stated you had been monitoring the situation for some time. The correct action should of been to alter to starboard and if necessary Gybe to put him on your Starboard quarter.

This would:
i) Decrease the relative speed of the two vessels by a considerable amount.
ii) Mean if the other vessel did make alteration to starboard he would have a smaller target to hit.
iii) In the event you did jybe, the change of shape of sails would make it very apparent that you had altered course.
iv) You state that up until the moment you altered he could of altered to avoid you, what if that alteration had of been to Starboard?

2) Flare guns are of little use for attracting attention at close ranges unless it is dark, even then some one has to be looking to you fired the rocket to ensure its location.
The flare gun might even of disturbed the look out from seeing you as he looked for the source.

3) Distances at sea can be very difficult to judge, even more so of a night. On hot/ clear days you can get small amounts of refraction that make judging distance's even harder.

4) If you suspect risk of collision exists monitor the vessel closely, going below even for a short period of time to say get a flare gun can take deceptively long. The situation can change significantly in this time. He may of even thought you where not keeping a look out and come close to investigate (it happened to me I passed friendly wave out of the forward hatch as changed my daughters nappy, the nappy being waved raised a smile ).

Given the same scenario in my mind there are 2 ways out:
1) VERY early in the situation follow that wind shift you detected and head up, or even decide that the wind will veer later in the passage and modify my passage plan to allow me to head a little closer to the wind. Either way putting him on your Starboard bow could remove the risk of collision.

2) If I was feeling belligerent and decided to stand on (SWMBO hates it when I do that) I would make sure I had time to jybe in AMPLE time. Given the situation I would probably have made a round turn in a way of showing my dislike (hence 90% of the time I would go for option no 1).

3) Reduced speed to allow more time to asses the situation (again this would remove risk of collision), this option is also in the rules somewhere...

Sorry if you think you where teaching him a lesson I do no think the man in the motorboat learned anything other than sailing boats will give way...

Its a sad fact like on the road the tube or where ever else there are idiots, under sail and motor.

 

[Frankie-H]

Cobblers to you, sunshine; why do you wear a blue ensign if not for financial posing ?

This has got to be one of the most inexperienced threads I have read and you comment Seajet beggers belief. The reason for wearing any club flag is that you can be recognized and, more often than not your club will be your local or social centre. Your friends will able to identify you by your flag. It has nothing whatsoever to do do with 'financial posing'. Certainly some of the very well known, senior clubs, will cost more than others and some will attract more affluent members.

The red ensign is, sadly , becoming more and more of a flag of convenience. There is no guarantee that a British registered yacht is British owned. This is more and more relevant as you get to the Med and further afield.

In my very personal experience stupidity is not confined to mobos or to nationality. I have seen and been subject to stupidity from many nationalities and as many sailing boats as mobos.

If you are going to disobey the colregs, you should do so early and obviously but the question is how early and which way do you turn. If you turn against a 'give way' vessel you might very easily be turning into danger. I would suggest that many of those who criticize have never been in this situation. By far the most important course of action is to try and attract the attention of the approaching vessel by whatever means is available to you. Radio is normally fairly useless as, in these waters there are hundreds of boats milling about. 'Vessel approaching' or 'Vessel in position' will be meaningless. They will probably not have their radio on and will certainly not know their position to any degree of accuracy. A flare, preferably a red one during the daytime , is a very acceptable warning. (I personally would prefer a 12 bore with some of the idiots about)

Those who do not see the need to fly any ensign, plainly speak through total inexperience or they never sail in international waters. The ensign of you registered country is a legal requirement in international or other country's waters.

 

[Robin]

Cobblers to you, sunshine; why do you wear a blue ensign if not for financial posing ?

My (defaced) blue ensign was flown only when in company with other club members or if they might be around as in local cruising, otherwise I wore an old faithful red ensign that actually flew better in a light breeze as it had no heavy embroidered insignia ( a dolphin) to weigh down the fly. I'm still a proud member of that YC, Parkstone YC in Poole, and fly the club burgee here in Florida as well as having another one in the form of a decal stuck on the transom. These days as our current boat is US registered we can sadly neither wear a blue nor a red, but must wear the US stars and stripes, which probably makes me a real plonker in the stupid ensign wars stakes.


I really do not understand how this inverted snobbery has got such hold in so many otherwise logical minds.

Actually these days I would feel much more of a pariah for daring to own up to carrying a Delta anchor on the bows when it clearly should be immediately ditched for a Rocna/Spade/ mantus, to be in with the 'in' crowd in internet fora.

:disgust:

 

[Norman_E]

I must say that I am getting a bit fed up with comments from people who did not experience the situation. I turned to port for two reasons, firstly at the time I turned there was no risk that the oncoming boat would pass to port of me on its present course, but a risk of either collision or a very close pass to starboard. Secondly by turning to port I could maintain speed and therefore steering ability, provided I did not overdo it, whilst a downwind turn to starboard would have very quickly reduced my speed or caused a gybe and left me a sitting target. (The true wind was well behind my beam on my original course, and apparent wind just a bit behind 90 degrees). The motorboat was still ahead of me when I fired the second flare low ahead of his bow. My white flares are not the big white rockets, but are cartridges shot from a plastic gun that fires them to a lower height than the rocket type even if you aim them high. They burn very brightly and are highly visible even on a sunny day like yesterday. Neither boat had the sun ahead of it. My estimates of the distances involved may be a bit short as I usually find that objects at sea are actually further away than I think. When approaching a coast and preparing to tack a look at the plotter with the cursor placed on the shoreline often reveals that it is twice as far as I would have guessed.

 

[onesea]

I must say that I am getting a bit fed up with comments from people who did not experience the situation...

Sorry your right I was not there only you where there, so obviously you only and have the right answer.

No one in this forum has been in as similar situation. Even those who routinely sail in busy waters where you are dealing with multi boat situations, traffic often dense enough that firing a flare at low trajectory would probably result in hitting another boat with it.

Certainly if I got into a situation where I was reduced to firing flares to indicate my position I would be questioning how I let the situation develop, not worrying about what flag he was flying....

 

[JumbleDuck]

They join clubs & buy a warrant.

I suspect that many of them just buy the flag. I doubt if anyone ever checks.

 

[bigwow]

I suspect that many of them just buy the flag. I doubt if anyone ever checks.

Would that work with a white one? I quite fancy flying one of those.:encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

This has got to be one of the most inexperienced threads I have read and you comment Seajet beggers belief. The reason for wearing any club flag is that you can be recognized and, more often than not your club will be your local or social centre. Your friends will able to identify you by your flag.

Won't they recognize your boat?

 

[onesea]

Would that work with a white one? I quite fancy flying one of those.:encouragement:

I thought they kept those for the anti war type people you know the peace protesters and that kind