Smallest viable boat advice

[wanzap1]

Hi Gang,

Unfortunately another "which boat" thread, but looking for some advice.

Whilst I love my current boat, the cost of ownership vs reward ratio is beginning to become untenable and I am resenting spending thousands of pounds per year on marina fees, cranage & maintenance, for 3 or 4 weeks of summer sailing. So I am considering doing a serious downgrade.

Having pondered it, in order for it to be worthwhile I would need to downsize to smallest boat possible that meets the following:

• Stress-free trailer to and from the slip - will be in the water all summer on a swing mooring - fin keel no real issue.
• Simple to step mast
• Smallish outboard
• low maintenance
• Can handle summer sailing between N.Ireland and West Scotland (clyde & Islay).

I looked at an Achilles 24 & Anderson 22 - whilst they would meet my sailing needs, they are still quite "big" - I think the chore of launching and recovery would make me lazy. Something in the 19 - 20ft range would be much more manageable, but not sure if they would meet my sailing needs.

I'd love you thoughts on boats like:

Prelude 19 fin keel
Hunter Europa
Hunter Horizon 21
Kingfisher 20+


Or am I dreaming? I know small boats have made epic voyages, but I dont want my sailing to be surviving - an F5 of wind over tide in the North Channel can be pretty horrible!

First hand knowledge would be very welcomed.

 

[garymalmgren]

I guess you have heard the saying, "The best boat is someone-elses boat"

It might sound like you are leaching , BUT I have three friends who sail with me and can use my boat almost anytime they want.
It turns out to be not that often.
They help with fees and maintenance. too.
My point is, do you have a friend with a boat who is entering the same situation as you?
It works for me.
Boat sharing!
gary

 

[Tranona]

Hi Gang,

Unfortunately another "which boat" thread, but looking for some advice.

Whilst I love my current boat, the cost of ownership vs reward ratio is beginning to become untenable and I am resenting spending thousands of pounds per year on marina fees, cranage & maintenance, for 3 or 4 weeks of summer sailing. So I am considering doing a serious downgrade.

Having pondered it, in order for it to be worthwhile I would need to downsize to smallest boat possible that meets the following:

• Stress-free trailer to and from the slip - will be in the water all summer on a swing mooring - fin keel no real issue.
• Simple to step mast
• Smallish outboard
• low maintenance
• Can handle summer sailing between N.Ireland and West Scotland (clyde & Islay).

I looked at an Achilles 24 & Anderson 22 - whilst they would meet my sailing needs, they are still quite "big" - I think the chore of launching and recovery would make me lazy. Something in the 19 - 20ft range would be much more manageable, but not sure if they would meet my sailing needs.

I'd love you thoughts on boats like:

Prelude 19 fin keel
Hunter Europa
Hunter Horizon 21
Kingfisher 20+


Or am I dreaming? I know small boats have made epic voyages, but I dont want my sailing to be surviving - an F5 of wind over tide in the North Channel can be pretty horrible!

First hand knowledge would be very welcomed.

They are all very different boats. Suspect, as usual there is a conflict between your expectations and what is possible with boats that meet your "ease" criteria. As you say people do all sorts of things with small boats, but if you are coming down from a substantial cruiser you will likely find any +/-20' boat very limiting in your cruising grounds, particularly moving from one side of the channel to the other. Talking to a fellow club member last week who has just downsized to a 21' from 28' and he said the biggest consideration was that he would no longer be able to go cross channel (from Poole) and recognise his sailing area was now just around the harbour and maybe along the coast. Trade off is lower cost, effort for maintenance and ability to just get in and go more often.

 

[wanzap1]

They are all very different boats. Suspect, as usual there is a conflict between your expectations and what is possible with boats that meet your "ease" criteria. As you say people do all sorts of things with small boats, but if you are coming down from a substantial cruiser you will likely find any +/-20' boat very limiting in your cruising grounds, particularly moving from one side of the channel to the other. Talking to a fellow club member last week who has just downsized to a 21' from 28' and he said the biggest consideration was that he would no longer be able to go cross channel (from Poole) and recognise his sailing area was now just around the harbour and maybe along the coast. Trade off is lower cost, effort for maintenance and ability to just get in and go more often.

Tranona - you've hit the nail on the head! I read about people circumnavigating the UK in tiddlers - but I'm not sure that makes for enjoyable summer cruising. I fear I'm chasing a unicorn!

 

[Mark-1]

Tranona - you've hit the nail on the head! I read about people circumnavigating the UK in tiddlers - but I'm not sure that makes for enjoyable summer cruising. I fear I'm chasing a unicorn!

As owner of a Corribee my suggestion would be ask yourself: Where are you going to put wet oilies? Is there a comfortable place to sit back and relax, both inside and out. Could you spend 12 hours on it in rain at Anchor with no shore access?

People say small boats are like camping, but they're not like camping - they're like camping when you can't get out of the tent.

Crouching in a cramped space gets old pretty quick, and then you find yourself choosing dry days and choosing to use marinas rather than anchor so you can get off and stretch legs which is quite limiting.

I personally wouldn't remotely worry about its ability to sail in adverse conditions - it's just a case of whether you want to be on it in those conditions!

Having said that, the advantages of small boats are very obvious and you're clearly aware of them.

 

[wanzap1]

As owner of a Corribee my suggestion would be ask yourself: Where are you going to put wet oilies? Is there a comfortable place to sit back and relax, both inside and out. Could you spend 12 hours on it in rain at Anchor with no shore access?

People say small boats are like camping, but they're not like camping - they're like camping when you can't get out of the tent.

Crouching in a cramped space gets old pretty quick, and then you find yourself choosing dry days and choosing to use marinas rather than anchor so you can get off and stretch legs which is quite limiting.

I personally wouldn't remotely worry about its ability to sail in adverse conditions - it's just a case of whether you want to be on it in those conditions!

Having said that, the advantages of small boats are very obvious and you're clearly aware of them.

That's a really useful perspective Mark

 

[ylop]

• Stress-free trailer to and from the slip -

How much experience do you have towing and launching? Is your car suitable - without this "need" would you always have a car that's suitable?

• will be in the water all summer on a swing mooring - fin keel no real issue.

On that basis I would say that the launch and recovery are the least important to be trivial, because you will only do it once a year versus actually being comfortable on board. If the boat is trailer based there are lots of yards who have much more acceptable prices for tractor launching and trailer storage than using a hoist and cradle hire etc.

• Simple to step mast

Very subjective but I've never seen a mast that was simple. Some are easier than others, some have definitely been designed to be managable by two or even one person but no matter what that is a pain. If you want convenience like furling headsails and stackpacks then its more work when you take the mast down. If you don't have that convenience sails take up a lot of space.

• low maintenance

There's no such thing! Unless you want to charter and make it someone else's headache.

• Can handle summer sailing between N.Ireland and West Scotland (clyde & Islay).

Bigger is always going to be better for that! but it might contradict your small outboard desire?

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Have you thought about a Parker 21. Well built boat with good performance, design as a trailer sailor.
As you'd expect, space is limited, but it's quite possible for 2 to live on, especially if you have a cockpit tent.

 

[wanzap1]

How much experience do you have towing and launching? Is your car suitable - without this "need" would you always have a car that's suitable?

On that basis I would say that the launch and recovery are the least important to be trivial, because you will only do it once a year versus actually being comfortable on board. If the boat is trailer based there are lots of yards who have much more acceptable prices for tractor launching and trailer storage than using a hoist and cradle hire etc.

Very subjective but I've never seen a mast that was simple. Some are easier than others, some have definitely been designed to be managable by two or even one person but no matter what that is a pain. If you want convenience like furling headsails and stackpacks then its more work when you take the mast down. If you don't have that convenience sails take up a lot of space.

There's no such thing! Unless you want to charter and make it someone else's headache.

Bigger is always going to be better for that! but it might contradict your small outboard desire?

Hi Ylop, you've posed some great questions:

Towing would likely be a van or 4X4 - which I'll always have access to in some form.
I have a big yard, so would prefer to be able to take a boat home a reduce all storage costs. I own the swing mooring so its "free" (other than maintenance?).
I would step the mast using an DIY A-Frame - 2 man job for safety.
Yes the bigger the better is definitely better for comfort at sea - willing to compromise to meet other factors - but unsure as to where the balance should be??

 

[ridgy]

Are you thinking of putting said small craft on a summer mooring and taking it home in winter, or actual trailer sailing so tow, rig, and launch (and reverse) on each usage?
If it's the latter then that requires serious enthusiasm. I have a mate with a Lysander 17, a very modest boat, that I tow for him and it takes us 1.5 hours each way to launch and rig. It's a serious pain in the arse such we only do it twice a year for old times sake. Getting it strapped down for the road takes a good while.

I would work on reducing your current costs, there are cheaper yards and moorings around.

Lack of standing head room will give you backache in no time.

 

[wanzap1]

Are you thinking of putting said small craft on a summer mooring and taking it home in winter, or actual trailer sailing so tow, rig, and launch (and reverse) on each usage?
If it's the latter then that requires serious enthusiasm. I have a mate with a Lysander 17, a very modest boat, that I tow for him and it takes us 1.5 hours each way to launch and rig. It's a serious pain in the arse such we only do it twice a year for old times sake. Getting it strapped down for the road takes a good while.

I would work on reducing your current costs, there are cheaper yards and moorings around.

Lack of standing head room will give you backache in no time.

put on a summer mooring then taking home for winter

 

[Minerva]

As an outside choice, have you considered a trailerable catamaran such as a woods strider? I imagine riding out a gale in one for a couple of days would be akin to lying in a coffin for days in end, but potential for maintaining a decent cruising ground whilst having ability to take home for winter…

 

[Tranona]

Hi Ylop, you've posed some great questions:

Towing would likely be a van or 4X4 - which I'll always have access to in some form.
I have a big yard, so would prefer to be able to take a boat home a reduce all storage costs. I own the swing mooring so its "free" (other than maintenance?).
I would step the mast using an DIY A-Frame - 2 man job for safety.
Yes the bigger the better is definitely better for comfort at sea - willing to compromise to meet other factors - but unsure as to where the balance should be??

You don't say what your budget is or whether it is sailing performance or "comfort" that you are after. For example in the sub £5k market there is a world of difference between say an Anderson 22 and a Hurley 22. Both meet the take home in the winter bit but offer different cruising styles - big dinghy vs small heavyweight cruiser. An idea of your current boat and cruising style you are trying to replicate in smaller cheaper form might help with suggestions.

 

[KevinV]

I would say this, because I have one, but my requirements are close to yours, and I chose an (Atlanta Marine) Catch22 - they're not well known, but at 1400kg it's easily trailerable, sails beautifully, has 4 berths I fit in (I'm 6'3"), I can sit upright down below. Outboard in a well. I wouldn't describe lifting the mast as easy - definitely help required for that. Other mini-tonners are similar, definitely worth a look.

 

[DreadShips]

Yes the bigger the better is definitely better for comfort at sea - willing to compromise to meet other factors - but unsure as to where the balance should be??

Suspect you'd only discover that from your own experience - and how you find your sailing changing in response.

At the smaller, cheaper end you could buy something in decent nick and with a reasonable reputation, sail it for a year, and if it's too small there's still a market for the boat. Even if you don't get back what you paid you'll have banked the difference in savings elsewhere. And you'll have a better idea where the balance point is for you.

 

[Daydream believer]

No one has mentioned one of those MacGregor things which sail & have a 50hp engine to get home afterwards. A few turned to launch their boats for a rally at our marina one day & they all seemed to be having great fun.
Are second hand ones expensive? Seemed roomy. Towed behind volvos etc

 

[langstonelayabout]

If you take a look in the E Boats group on Facebook you will find a couple of reasonably priced E Boats (22’, lift keel) for sale with trailers. May be worth a look if you fancy a nippy boat that can live on a mooring and be fun to sail.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As an outside choice, have you considered a trailerable catamaran such as a woods strider? I imagine riding out a gale in one for a couple of days would be akin to lying in a coffin for days in end, but potential for maintaining a decent cruising ground whilst having ability to take home for winter…

I am an ex strider owner. 1st class boat all round, they’re actually not that bad down below. Sparkling perfofmance, good to windward if you choose a dagger board version. The most knots per £ on the market.

 

[Wansworth]

Looked at a possible purchase of 7 mfrs …..too small,although big enough when younger

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Looked at a possible purchase of 7 mfrs …..too small,although big enough when younger

I keep telling you a Strider would be perfect. 7.3 metres, shallow draught, party space in the middle, room for a loo. What are you waiting for