Skippered charter in the UK- legal hoops?

[Sea Change]

In the endless quest to figure out what I'm going to do when I grow up, the idea of running my own skippered charter business on the west coast has popped in to my head.

Yes I'm sure it's never going to be the best ROI, that's not what I'm after. I like sailing, I like chatting to tourists, I don't need to squeeze every last penny out of my time or capital.

I've done a fair bit of commercial marine work before- crewed on one of the St Kilda boats, was skipper on a 40pax motorboat here on Skye for a few seasons, also spent several years fish farming, driving and maintaining all sorts of vessels.

Legally, what would be required to operate a business in the UK? I'm assuming I'd need the following:
- UK flagged vessel (SSR, Pt1?)
- MCA coding
- insurance
- suitable commercially endorsed ticket (currently only have DS, I'd probably look to do YM)

Would be interesting to hear from anybody who has been involved in this sort of thing.

 

[Tranona]

Nothing too daunting regulations wise. Biggest challenges are finding a boat that will attract punters and attracting said punters. Skippered charters not particularly popular in UK unless "character" like the several Pilot cutters or niche focussed like bird watching. You need 4-6 berths which means minimum 40-45'. Modern AWBs dominate the bareboat market because they are easy to sail and can take 6 making group sharing viable and need for skipper/mate less.

 

[srm]

Legally, what would be required to operate a business in the UK? I'm assuming I'd need the following:
- UK flagged vessel (SSR, Pt1?)
- MCA coding
- insurance
- suitable commercially endorsed ticket (currently only have DS, I'd probably look to do YM)

Yes, you have summed it up. I would suggest YM offshore as a minimum for insurance and client confidence. YM instructor +RYA sailing school may extend your business offerings; certainly it got me some extra clients.
I ran my own skippered charter boat before compulsory coded vessels came in. The market was smaller then and I got some cruises on the west coast, (including a couple out to St Kilda) but being based in Shetland found that the west coast of Norway was more popular with the readers of my ads in Yachting Monthly. (Pre-internet back in those days).
More recently, after retiring, I did some skippered cruises for a bare boat charter company when they were asked to provide a skipper.
One problem you may find is the short sailing season in your area as it limits earnings. Perhaps linking with local land based tour businesses to offer day/half day/sunset sailing trips might help. Have done some skippering here in the Azores for these type of trips when the company's self sail boats were not otherwise booked.
Having an interesting/classic boat plus offering special interest cruises may help as @Tranona suggested. If you look at "Classic Sailing" Home Yes, you can join an adventure sailing holiday. Unique experience suitable for beginners or previous sailors. most of their boats (gaff and square rigs) seem to get fully booked very quickly, especially the one offering RYA courses on a gaff cutter.

 

[Sea Change]

I'd be hoping to offer punters the attraction of a local guide with in depth knowledge about the area, lots of stories etc, I've got fairly extensive birding knowledge too.

As to the boat... I was leaning towards one of the later Moodys out of brand loyalty... cockpit living doesn't really feature in my plans anyway...

Ideally I'd have a single cabin somewhere for myself to free up space for guests.

 

[srm]

cockpit living doesn't really feature in my plans anyway...

Understandably, but a deck saloon/large wheelhouse with good visibility from seating areas could be an advantage allowing charterers sheltered comfort and a view. I remember watching an otter hunting in the anchorage while having my lunch sitting at the cabin table in my Prout catamaran. Something I would have missed in many other boats.
Having noticed your "signature" how about landscape sketching/painting or photography cruises?

 

[Sea Change]

Having noticed your "signature" how about landscape sketching/painting or photography cruises?

I'm afraid you've taken me a bit too literally there

Casting an eye around on Google it seems like skippered charter isn't terribly common/popular, and tends to be an add-on to a bareboat package.

I wonder why that is? I'd be offering to get people in to the lesser known nooks and crannies, rather than simply hopping from one marina to the next.

 

[dunedin]

Stravaigin is perhaps the best recent example of somebody doing this very actively, and hopefully successfully - Home Page

Corryvreckan was perhaps the best example until their recent retirement

Need to add good website to your list of requirements

 

[Sea Change]

Need to add good website to your list of requirements

I know a guy...

 

[Sea Change]

I think social media presence could be a big thing here. Andy Schell (59⁰N) has done very well, his podcast is effectively free advertising for his skippered charter business, and he's now running a fleet of three boats and employs enough people that he is able to take time away from the business. I wouldn't be dreaming of anything on that scale myself.

The rough idea would be for me to singlehand the boat, and the itinerary would depend to some extent on crew capabilities. Starting from Skye puts St Kilda in reach.

SWMBO would stock the freezer with good hearty home cooked meals, taking a bit of pressure off me. She'd also handle bookings and general admin.

In my head, a 90s Moody 44 would be a lovely boat to do this on... a friend has one and it's a great boat. But I'd be quite open minded. Not convinced that a boat designed for the Med is right for this sort of thing, even though most of the current bareboat charter fleet seem to be AWBs.

 

[ylop]

Casting an eye around on Google it seems like skippered charter isn't terribly common/popular, and tends to be an add-on to a bareboat package.

I wonder why that is? I'd be offering to get people in to the lesser known nooks and crannies, rather than simply hopping from one marina to the next.

I think it depends why someone would come on a trip with you?

1. Someone who has never sailed before and has plenty of cash (skippered charter is expensive!) perhaps more likely to book onto one of the mini cruise lines for a luxury experience.

2. Someone who has sailed enough to know they want tranquility over diesel engine hum - might as well do a course - after 2 weeks they’ll be able to rent bareboat.

3. Someone who is an experienced sailor probably just do bareboat. The wisdom of a “guide” might be useful but the pilot books are a lot cheaper and don’t come with the risk of the skipper being annoying!

4. Someone who wants something truely memorable - books on one of the classic boats.

BUT…

there are people like Rubicon 3 (based down south but were in Oban last week) who seem to offer a “package” that is not quite “skippered charter” but is at least presented as something more interesting than that. They do offer training on top - but worth remembering even if you don’t become an RYA school you can still offer “mile builder” experience opportunities.

Perhaps not what you are looking for - but I’ve always been surprised that nobody did flotilla charter in Scotland (AFAIK) and also that perhaps many “visitors” whether chartering or bringing their own boat might benefit from a “guide” but who also has technical skills to sort out silly engine problems, fouled anchors etc. in the same sort of way that flotilla leaders do…. To be honest though a cabin rib would probably be a better tool for this!

If by “more modern” moody you mean “post Hanse” than you might have a market for people who are worried about the weather. If you mean something older than that - I think people chartering a yacht have expectations of modern comforts. If your target market is people who want to experience that sailing feeling for the first time and get involved in pulling some ropes etc then cockpit living probably is the order of the day.

One issue to consider is if you break the boat and are out of action for 2-3 weeks and someone has booked an expensive holiday around it you better have a good plan!

Final thought - if you want to make life easy for people then you might want to think about travel arrangements, that might bring you into package holiday regs (I’m not sure?) but offering to have taxi transfers from Glasgow/Edin airport would be a huge selling point for international, or potentially even “south of England” travellers. That also means you can plan trips which are not circular and that might also attract customers who could not get a bareboat like that.

 

[Tranona]

I'm afraid you've taken me a bit too literally there

Casting an eye around on Google it seems like skippered charter isn't terribly common/popular, and tends to be an add-on to a bareboat package.

I wonder why that is? I'd be offering to get people in to the lesser known nooks and crannies, rather than simply hopping from one marina to the next.

It is very hard to make an economic economic case to run a suitable boat and attract enough people willing to pay a decent price. Worth looking at the link to see what the "competition" offers. Many of the activities they offer can be accessed on day trips from shore based accommodation at lower cost. there is a distinction between this sort of activity and most skippered charter. As you say a skipper is often an add on to a bareboat where the focus is on sailing and the charters want professional help. the focus with the water activity, rock hopping diving bird watching is on the activity and the boat is just a vehicle.

I was involved in some research a few years ago with our tourist people on just this subject and some of thee findings were that most who had tried to run such activities were not expecting to make a full time living, never mind make a return on the investment in the boat. Often a husband and wife team, retired or semi retired (ex forces common) with an existing boat and the aim was to cover costs and enjoy the lifestyle. Few expected it to be a long term activity. Biggest challenge was finding clients in what is a very niche market.

This lifestyle may of course suit you, particularly if you enjoy the company of a small group of people in confined spaces who need to be fed, watered and kept busy for a few days before being replaced by another group!

 

[srm]

My experience is very out of date, but I can relate to the comments above by @Tranona. I worked during the winter ashore and decided what I wanted to do for the summer, broke it in to 2 week cruises and advertised in January. On a good season expenses were covered and perhaps a new bit of kit for the boat. It was not a viable/sustainable business as a stand alone project, not helped the short Scottish and Norwegian seasons.

I sort of knew Doug and Mary Lindsey, having sailed on their first skippered charter boat, Gay Pandora when I finished university. Met Doug many years later at an instructor conference when he had recently sold his first Corryvreckan and had the second built. At that time he had qualified as YM Instructor to provide an add on to the business. He did not say how he funded the new boat, but from the figures he was mentioning I assumed he had substantial capital from outside the charter business. Having been in the business so long they would have had a good client base, probably with some repeat business and referrals but still advertised all year round. I don't know how Corryvreckan has been run in more recent years, but Doug and Mary ran the boat in a similar manner to your ideas, with excellent fresh food cooked on board by Mary.

You will need a boat suited to west coast conditions that will also provide interesting sailing for those who want to handle the boat. I have skippered a biggish AWB on the north and west coasts (bare boat charter but requested a skipper) and was not impressed with its handling in a southerly F7-8 and short steep seas off Stornoway. After a day gale bound the crew wanted to go out for an afternoon sail. It showed up the limitations of a fine bow and two double bedrooms in the stern.

Is the ex-BT Round the World Race boat still running charters from Stornoway? Must say that if I was doing it again I would look fro a boat that offered something special or different by way of sailing experience. My McGruer designed 8 metre cruser /racer attracted some clients with its sleek hull and long overhangs. Others came specifically to sail the west coast of Norway or out to St Kilda.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

The Moody 44 if the price and condition is good would be a good choice because of the extra cabin. Sleeping in saloons and sharing cabin space is less attractive these days to customers.

Understand your initial coding requirements, follow up coding requirements and associated costs, annual requirements and mid term costs and renewal costs, it all adds up. Establish berth days to break even and work from that. Consider what certifying authority you will use e.g. RYA, Lloyds, YDSA. The RYA have few surveyors in Scotland, although one is up your way and is very good. Surveyors can be pernickety, they work from to the MCA requirements and will interpret as required for safe operation. Have a buffer of funds to fix things that they decide are absent or not up to scratch; do your research. Currently you need paper charts and for them to be corrected up to date.

Make sure you can pass the medical before committing - I have an OPITO offshore medical and that is not accepted, you will need an ENG1 (UK Seafarers) or ML5 (Certified by your doctor). If there are any contra indications the medical will not be approved and a case will have to be made to the certifying authority doctor who may issue restrictions, they are getting tough on BMI. You also need professional practises and responsibilities (PPR) training, online, lots of suppliers, which is easy enough, as is First Aid with the requires sea element (hypothermia and drowning stuff), you may have to do hygiene certificate course to prepare meals on board and handle food - easy to do and all local councils offer guidance on where to sit the course (a day) - not mandatory but some councils require this. You need to have a DSC VHF radio licence, many old codgers never upgraded to the DSV VHF licence, this will be checked.

You need a training manual, basically the instruction book that has the the various instructions for your boat for operating equipment but importantly, emergency response e.g. actions in the event that the gas alarm sounds, MOB, helicopter rescue, fire et cetera. This can be checked for vessel specific instructions, they can also be bought as generic books. Certification: Gas, liferaft, lifejackets, fire extinguishers all annual except liferaft based on OEM requirements. I have my rigging inspected annually as a matter of course, although that is not required. Maintenance log is strongly recommended, a drill log is also required to show that drills are done - a drill log book is better than navigation / general log book entries. You will have to demonstrate how to recover an MOB into the boat - this is done by actually recovering a MOB from alongside or at anchor using the kit on the boat, videoed and the video presented to the surveyor - this is a recent requirement.

Social media is a must these days, a web site by itself is no good, so you need to develop those skills.

good luck.

 

[Sea Change]

It is very hard to make an economic economic case to run a suitable boat and attract enough people willing to pay a decent price. Worth looking at the link to see what the "competition" offers. Many of the activities they offer can be accessed on day trips from shore based accommodation at lower cost. there is a distinction between this sort of activity and most skippered charter. As you say a skipper is often an add on to a bareboat where the focus is on sailing and the charters want professional help. the focus with the water activity, rock hopping diving bird watching is on the activity and the boat is just a vehicle.

I was involved in some research a few years ago with our tourist people on just this subject and some of thee findings were that most who had tried to run such activities were not expecting to make a full time living, never mind make a return on the investment in the boat. Often a husband and wife team, retired or semi retired (ex forces common) with an existing boat and the aim was to cover costs and enjoy the lifestyle. Few expected it to be a long term activity. Biggest challenge was finding clients in what is a very niche market.

This lifestyle may of course suit you, particularly if you enjoy the company of a small group of people in confined spaces who need to be fed, watered and kept busy for a few days before being replaced by another group!

Thanks, nothing there truly that surprising.
This project wouldn't be about maximising my income, it would be about doing something I enjoy and which I hope plays to some strengths and skills.

Perhaps I have been influenced by the abundance of skippered charter businesses on my travels- plenty in both the Med and the Caribbean. And of course the high profile, high latitude, outfits like Skip Novak, John Kretschmer, and Andy Schell have no shortage of customers lining up. But I'm not anticipating anything quite that adventurous.

I see people cruising through north west Scotland and they all visit the same places, which are rarely the best, most interesting, or most scenic. We have a very rich history and I'm sure having a skipper/guide would greatly enhance what people could gain from the experience. There's more to this coastline than simply the marinas!

I've worked as skipper and guide on day trips before, and I do enjoy the social side of it. I could of course just do the obvious thing and buy a fast motorboat to the people on day trips, but that's hard to get excited about.

 

[Sea Change]

My experience is very out of date, but I can relate to the comments above by @Tranona. I worked during the winter ashore and decided what I wanted to do for the summer, broke it in to 2 week cruises and advertised in January. On a good season expenses were covered and perhaps a new bit of kit for the boat. It was not a viable/sustainable business as a stand alone project, not helped the short Scottish and Norwegian seasons.

Can I ask why you chose two weeks? That's a big chunk of somebody's annual holiday budget. I'm assuming one week would be more likely to generate interest, although obviously it limits me to the nearby sections of the west coast. I'm thinking St Kilda would be popular when possible, and otherwise going up or down the Uists would offer a few hundred beautiful anchorages, hills to climb, beaches, a few bars etc. It's also prime cetacean watching territory (as I'm sure you know).

You will need a boat suited to west coast conditions that will also provide interesting sailing for those who want to handle the boat. I have skippered a biggish AWB on the north and west coasts (bare boat charter but requested a skipper) and was not impressed with its handling in a southerly F7-8 and short steep seas off Stornoway. After a day gale bound the crew wanted to go out for an afternoon sail. It showed up the limitations of a fine bow and two double bedrooms in the stern.

I currently sail an older centre cockpit Moody, and there's a lot about it that I like. I'd need some persuasion on an AWB. If money was no object I'd probably be looking at some kind of expedition style yacht.

Is the ex-BT Round the World Race boat still running charters from Stornoway? Must say that if I was doing it again I would look fro a boat that offered something special or different by way of sailing experience. My McGruer designed 8 metre cruser /racer attracted some clients with its sleek hull and long overhangs. Others came specifically to sail the west coast of Norway or out to St Kilda.

Nope, he sold up after about five years. I don't recall ever seeing him advertise though, it was all very low key, surprising given the size of boat and overheads that came with that. SWMBO got to St Kilda with him one year when they had extra berths available.

 

[Sea Change]

The Moody 44 if the price and condition is good would be a good choice because of the extra cabin. Sleeping in saloons and sharing cabin space is less attractive these days to customers.

Yup, I was thinking it could be quite flexible- two doubles and the bunk cabin. Same layout as our 39, but much more modern and nicer inside. I'd assume that the bunk cabin would normally be for me, with space to stow things, but it offers the option of me switching cabins and giving those bunks to two people who are not a couple.

Understand your initial coding requirements, follow up coding requirements and associated costs, annual requirements and mid term costs and renewal costs, it all adds up. Establish berth days to break even and work from that. Consider what certifying authority you will use e.g. RYA, Lloyds, YDSA. The RYA have few surveyors in Scotland, although one is up your way and is very good. Surveyors can be pernickety, they work from to the MCA requirements and will interpret as required for safe operation. Have a buffer of funds to fix things that they decide are absent or not up to scratch; do your research. Currently you need paper charts and for them to be corrected up to date.

Make sure you can pass the medical before committing - I have an OPITO offshore medical and that is not accepted, you will need an ENG1 (UK Seafarers) or ML5 (Certified by your doctor). If there are any contra indications the medical will not be approved and a case will have to be made to the certifying authority doctor who may issue restrictions, they are getting tough on BMI. You also need professional practises and responsibilities (PPR) training, online, lots of suppliers, which is easy enough, as is First Aid with the requires sea element (hypothermia and drowning stuff), you may have to do hygiene certificate course to prepare meals on board and handle food - easy to do and all local councils offer guidance on where to sit the course (a day) - not mandatory but some councils require this. You need to have a DSC VHF radio licence, many old codgers never upgraded to the DSV VHF licence, this will be checked.

Thank, I'm most of the way there- I've previously been commercially endorsed as a skipper on both tour boats and fish farm work. My ENG1 has lapsed now but shouldn't be a big deal to get another.

You need a training manual, basically the instruction book that has the the various instructions for your boat for operating equipment but importantly, emergency response e.g. actions in the event that the gas alarm sounds, MOB, helicopter rescue, fire et cetera. This can be checked for vessel specific instructions, they can also be bought as generic books. Certification: Gas, liferaft, lifejackets, fire extinguishers all annual except liferaft based on OEM requirements. I have my rigging inspected annually as a matter of course, although that is not required. Maintenance log is strongly recommended, a drill log is also required to show that drills are done - a drill log book is better than navigation / general log book entries. You will have to demonstrate how to recover an MOB into the boat - this is done by actually recovering a MOB from alongside or at anchor using the kit on the boat, videoed and the video presented to the surveyor - this is a recent requirement.

Social media is a must these days, a web site by itself is no good, so you need to develop those skills.

good luck.

Yup all of that is familiar from the tour boat stuff I was doing a few years back.


This is very much hypothetical just now. We're still committed to liveaboard cruising (our boat is still in the Caribbean) so it's really me trying to think of what I might do with myself when we get back home on a more permanent basis.

 

[ylop]

The rough idea would be for me to singlehand the boat, and the itinerary would depend to some extent on crew capabilities. Starting from Skye puts St Kilda in reach.

SWMBO would stock the freezer with good hearty home cooked meals, taking a bit of pressure off me. She'd also handle bookings and general admin.

Does SWMBO know that your semi-retirement plan is for you to swan around the beautiful west coast whilst she is stocking the freezer making meals to suit the increasing number of dietary requirements in between answering the phone (or much more likely Insta, WhatsApp, Facebook) etc.

 

[srm]

Can I ask why you chose two weeks? That's a big chunk of somebody's annual holiday budget. I'm assuming one week would be more likely to generate interest, although obviously it limits me to the nearby sections of the west coast.

I ran the boat from 1980 to 1989 based in Shetland, so transport for crew changes was more difficult to organise then and (other than the last couple of years in Lerwick) only went in to a marina, (near Bergen to drop off crew who cut their booking short) the once. Two week blocks were on the Norwegian coast with crew changes usually in Bergen. First cruise of the summer started in Lerwick and last one ended there. Likewise St. Kilda from Shetland was a two week cruise to give some flexibility - and no guarantee we would get there. I did one two week trip to Norway and back as the crew were based in Shetland. I also had a few four week bookings in Norway but would not recommend accepting such long blocks as they all resulted in some friction.

I also did everything from evening sailings for a local club through weekends and shorter cruises to meet client requests. However, the two week blocks seemed to work quite well as we could explore quite a bit, or on one trip cross the Arctic Circle to Lofoten. If staying in UK waters then one week, as you suggest, could be more attractive as people need to get there and back as part of their holiday.

Now I think about it the handful of cruises I did more recently for the bare boat company were also two week bookings, or weekends.

I get the regular emails from Classic Sailing (I like the boat pics) and was surprised to see how short most of their UK based cruises are, so it would be worth doing some serious market research as ideas and expectations have changed.

 

[Tranona]

In my head, a 90s Moody 44 would be a lovely boat to do this on... a friend has one and it's a great boat. But I'd be quite open minded. Not convinced that a boat designed for the Med is right for this sort of thing, even though most of the current bareboat charter fleet seem to be AWBs.

AWBs like the Elan in the link and also the bareboat charter fleets are popular because a) they are available, b) they are brilliant for the job and c) most people expect the sort of boat they can't afford.. Offering a 40 year old boat would need with it something that is not available from competitors. There are so many small niches and what you offer has to appeal to 4-6 people, often strangers who are happy to pay the price for what you offer. For some it is being on something different like the heritage boats, others hard sailing on the sort of boat you could never own, others the boat is a platform for another activity.

This debate takes me back to when I first bought a "big" boat where my original choice was a Moody to do the slowly sail to the Med bit and then base there for retirement. Part of the research included chartering a Moody 37 in Greece and quickly we agreed it was not suitable, even though it was a good liveaboard for a couple, it was a PITA with 6 on board in holiday mode. The following year we chartered a Bavaria 42 and the rest is history - bought a Bavaria. One of the key factors on modern boats with 4 + holiday makers on board is the larger more sociable cockpit and boarding from the stern (with shower if they fancy a dip!).

 

[benjenbav]

I don’t think the OP’s plan works. There are not enough folk willing to pay for the privilege of being cooped up in a manky auld yacht with a complete stranger. Those that want skippered charter will also not want to act as crew for the skipper and there are likely to be a host of legal issues if the OP tries to mix and match passenger and crew roles and anything goes wrong.