Single hand a Jeanneau 409/419?
- Thread starter dune16
- Start date
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
The 419 is built with various options, it's standard slab reefed with a 106% genoa. In mast furling reduces mainsail area, the 140% genoa option adds it back again.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
If performance is as important as easy handling then I'd go with the 106 jib and a fully battered main with a stack pack, my current boat has a 106% jib with an option for a 140% and as far as I know not one boat in the uk has had the latter specified.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
OK, if ease of handling is important, why not the furling main ?
dune16
Well-Known Member
Maybe I am trying to spec the impossible. I want a boat to get me up to speed single handing but then I also don't want to handicap performance later down the line. No going back when specing inmast furling so perhaps I just need to go with the standard sail plan and persevere with mastering the drills to single hand it. Practice makes perfect...
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
There is NO good reason not to have the in mast furling. No one on here will come up with a valid reason, other than dated opinions and heresay based on 1970's in mast furling systems. Why do you think the majority of charter boats are in mast ?
Tom Cunliffe slagged in mast and in boom furling for decades. His current boat came with in boom furling and he intended to change it at the end of the season. He found he really liked it and has kept it. Old prejudices die hard.
doug748
Well-Known Member
No great shock that a lot of in mast furling systems are sold with family cruisers. Just as few are seen on J yachts.
You get three performance hits; smaller sail area, a flat cut sail and extra weight aloft. On a 40ft boat this is not a killer but you won't be seeing racers with them in the near future.
PS
Those big sails are hard work but it is doable, sail with a reef, or two, in whilst you find your feet
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pvb
Well-Known Member
Are you planning to race? If not, ignore performance considerations and go for easy, fuss-free, drama-free, safe, sail handling systems which both you and your family will appreciate. The odd half-knot here or there makes little difference on most passages.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Fine, but then putting a massive overlapping genoa on It then makes sailing far harder work.....
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pvb
Well-Known Member
And rather upsets the balance.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
While the overall sail area is slightly smaller the useable sail area is arguably greater, and certainly more flexible. Despite the flat cut it is quite possible to get shape by using the outhaul. There is no weight penalty aloft on a purpose designed rig and the stability is exactly the same.
So more old wives tales from somebody who seems to have no real experience of modern boats.
So more old wives tales from somebody who seems to have no real experience of modern boats.
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doug748
Well-Known Member
The sails are flatter and smaller and the rig will be heavier by dint of the furling gear itself and the furled item as you reduce sail. Furling a conventional sail has the happy benefit of increasing stability.
These things are in the nature of the device they cannot be wished away. Huffing and puffing about old wives tales is of no account, it is a matter of Physics.
These things are in the nature of the device they cannot be wished away. Huffing and puffing about old wives tales is of no account, it is a matter of Physics.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The rig is not heavier. The section of the mast on a furling rig is smaller and lighter. You seem to be thinking of the add on systems where weight aloft was increased and may have had an effect on stability. The sail is flatter but as I tried to explain (but you ignore) can have its shape adjusted and more importantly you are not limited to 3 arbitrary mainsail areas but can adjust the sail area to suit the conditions - just as you can with a furling jib. Appreciate that is difficult to understand for somebody who only has experience of fixed reef points. You need a different mindset to sail a boat that has a different way of adjusting sail area.
Do you seriously think that all the clever people who design these boats don't know what is involved, nor that the thousands of people who choose to buy this system don't know what they are doing when they make their choice of rig?
You really should come out of the past and try a modern boat then you might understand why other people make a different choice from you.
doug748
Well-Known Member
More repetition and speculative blather. Thanks, but I am content that those that want to understand do so. Particularly the OP who has made it clear he is inclined towards the faster system.
Quote:
"Tom Cunliffe slagged in mast and in boom furling for decades. His current boat came with in boom furling and he intended to change it at the end of the season. He found he really liked it and has kept it." PaulRainbow
Just so. furling systems have a lot of advantages not least in looking after the sail and tidying up the windage and clutter at the boom of an arrangement with lazy jacks and the rest. Boom furling holds many of the aces; a workable roach, horizontal battens, weight in the right place and a easy fix in the case of mechanical problems. It may well be the way forward for private owners.
Quote:
"Tom Cunliffe slagged in mast and in boom furling for decades. His current boat came with in boom furling and he intended to change it at the end of the season. He found he really liked it and has kept it." PaulRainbow
Just so. furling systems have a lot of advantages not least in looking after the sail and tidying up the windage and clutter at the boom of an arrangement with lazy jacks and the rest. Boom furling holds many of the aces; a workable roach, horizontal battens, weight in the right place and a easy fix in the case of mechanical problems. It may well be the way forward for private owners.
ashtead
Well-Known Member
Can anyone advise why we don't see more in boom furling systems offered as while I believe X boats fit they seem the only one? Is it just down to cost ? I have always resisted in mast options and happy with main and stack pack but curious on in boom systems . I have only sailed with one on a Dutch steel yacht which was slow to store on the powered fuller but is the resistance just down to this issue ?
pvb
Well-Known Member
There are probably lots of reasons, least of which is cost. In-boom furling requires the boom to be very precisely positioned otherwise it won't furl cleanly. It's no good if you want to furl downwind. It requires a large and very heavy boom, which some see as a safety issue. When furling, tension needs to be maintained on the halyard, which can be difficult for singlehanders. And, of course, you still have to haul the weight of the sail aloft every time, which some older buyers aren't keen on.
doug748
Well-Known Member
I understand you can get real problems if you don't furl with the boom at 90 deg to the mast, this can be overcome with fixed or semi fixed kickers but then sail trim is not so flexible.
I think boats designed for the Med charter trade will continue with vertical furling which is sorted, inexpensive and the downsides are not a particular priority of charterers. It is very easy to damage a slab reefed sail by inexpert reefing which the in mast probably overcomes, another plus factor for operators. I guess furling booms will continue to be relatively expensive until they become popular.
I think boats designed for the Med charter trade will continue with vertical furling which is sorted, inexpensive and the downsides are not a particular priority of charterers. It is very easy to damage a slab reefed sail by inexpert reefing which the in mast probably overcomes, another plus factor for operators. I guess furling booms will continue to be relatively expensive until they become popular.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
With respect to the OP, he doesn't really know what he wants, he's been swayed towards slab reefing by people who are stuck in the dark ages. Who in their right mind would spec a brand new family cruiser with slab reefing when the could have a mainsail system as easy as roller furling headsails ? It won't be a faster system, it'll be a stuck in the marina with all of the other floating caravans, if it's more work than it's worth.
Enough decades have past for in boom reefing to "catch on", it isn't going to happen. In mast has been developed into a simple, safe and reliable system.
TQA
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That is not the case in my little corner of Caribbean paradise. Both Moorings and Sunsail now offer most of their fleet with slab reefing even the floating condo cats come with slab reefing. .
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
I think it's the case in the Med.
