Sextant shortage

i am a little bit confused, with all my respect, to mr VO5, attitude !

for the simple use of sextant, the mr VO5, contribute almost 20 posts and everyone which have tried to help the others, how to use, this old method of position fixing, was .........!

i have one very simple question to mr VO5, in case some boatowners are on short budget, like me, how they can learn and practice the sextant if they can not fulfill below requirement

qte
You need to have the complete kit for it which is:~

A really good sextant, preferably fitted with light to read the arc.
Two mechanical stop watches for day use.
Two luminous stop watches for night use.
A chronometer. Mechanical or Elrectronic.
A copy of Nories or Burtons.
The Admiralty Almanack for the current year.
Foolscap paper.
unqte

i am not against to have the best one from the market but this do not help the others !
know, how to use, and how the stuff work is more important for me!

ok, i dont have a high cost sextant but cheap one without the light to read the arc
(one hint for you - i can find the sextant error)
i dont have Two mechanical stop watches for day use.
i dont have Two luminous stop watches for night use.
i dont have A chronometer. Mechanical or Elrectronic.
i dont have A copy of Nories or Burtons.

i have only radio, wristwatch, almanach for the current year & sight reduction tables ! and one more very important item - star finder:)))))

if we are in the middle of the atlantic, i bet, that the mr. VO5, with all the above fancy things, can not find his position, using the sextant for star observation, because, he forgot that he need to identify the stars before to commence!
without the stars, there is no position fix !

just to explain - the stars, are usually worked before sunrise and after sunset or at the time, when the dark or the lights are comming, the time is very short and if the stars for observation are not pre-scheduled by azimut and altitude, the work is impposible !

for all those that like to learn something for using the sextant, please have a look on my first posting - this is how to use the sight reduction tables for marine navigation !
have a look at introduction - a lot of usefull stuff!
beware of the sight reduction tables for air navigation - you can use these tables also but they are for time of 5 years if i am not wrong!
additional to the tables, one need to know, how to use the almanah, to identify the sextant error, correction of the observed altitude and how to add and substruct!

just try to convince everyone - this is not a difficult stuff to learn !

with best regards


www.neatcss.com


Of course it is not difficult to learn.....IF.....(which is the smallest word in the English Language but possibly the most importasnt)...if..it is taught properly.

You would have learnt, if you had gone to navy college, to identify a handful of stars suitable for observation at night, you would have been taught how to spot them, even through gaps in clouds.

You would have learnt how to calculate the approximate sextant angle in advance of shooting them and roughly which direction they would lie in.

You would have been made to become familiar with star maps, not necessarily all of the major 57 navigational stars and all the planets but at least for you to have a workable menu.

Therefore my dear fellow Mr VO5 in the middle of the Atlantic, or in any other part of the world for that matter, would not have this problem as he carries a picture of the major navigational stars which are easily recogniseable not on a map but in his head, so therefore you are thanked for your concern but you would have lost your bet.

If you do not wish to acquire all the kit I list which is the "classical" requirement or as you may wish to call it, there are other alternatives.

I read a very interesting account of a young man who crossed the Pacific single handed without a sextant or a chronometer or even stop watches but by using a star map for the southern hemisphere and a length of string with a weight at the end.

He would lie on his back in his boat at night and identify which star was in his zenith and from this calculate his latitude. As he was sailing west to east all he did was keep going until he reached land. This article was published in a major British yachting magazine of several years ago, but I do not recall which one.

Actually sailing east or west without a sextant (except to observe the altitude of Polaris) is not difficult. The difficulty arises if the course is anything but 270 - 090. This is because longitude cannot be calculated with a sextantalone, (as the users of the backstaff, and the octant, the grandaddy of the sextant already knew).... but it can with the use of a chronometer, using an almanack.

This is why the Board of Longitude offered a prize of £16,000 to whosoever could solve the problem of finding Longitude at sea, and it was won by Harrison, who invented a timepiece of sufficient accuracy to be able to fulfil the criteria including that of an even rate (of loss or gain).

The Sextant error is a different topic and deserves a chapter all of its own.

I presume you are talking of errors relating to the arc itself and not the other ones.

Errors on the arc.

The rule is, if its on, its off
and if its off its on.

Meaning, if the error is on the arc, subtract to get a corrected reading.
If the error is off the arc, then add to obtain a corrected reading.

For horizontasl bearings no corrections are necessary.

When observing the sun, do not forget to put in place the shades first !
Do not manhandle the sextant by picking it up by the index arm !
 
Last edited:
May one inquire whether you added to his distress by suggesting, in a thoroughly professional way, that he do precisely the same thing to himself?

:D

No I did not. I managed to get out of him a description of what he could see.
As this was past civil twilight he could see lights obviously.
I got him to count the flashes and to tell me how far apart they were by using handspans.
I was able to get an idea of where he was roughly.
There was a French Navy Corvette nearby. I engaged them in VHF En Francais, and they went to their assistance, immediatement ! Voila !:D
 
I have had two experiences with RYA Yachtmasters, one in the Channel Islands, with this moron at the entrance of St Peter Port in Guersey arguing blind with port control he was at the entrance to St Helier.:eek:

The other incident occured in the proximity of Concarneau.
This was in response to a distress call. As my vessel was the nearest I quickly replied requesting a position. The reply is unrepeatable in polite society.:eek:
So now at last we have smoked out your agenda. You have come across a couple of yachtmasters who did something wrong so you are making a case that all yachtmasters who passed under the RYA scheme are incompetent idiots and all those who passed under the BoT were competent seamen.

It seems that in fact it is you who can't be bothered to read anyone else's posts. I will say it again. The BoT exam required NO SEA TIME AT ALL. People who passed it might have a fine academic knowledge of traverse and ex-meridian tables but the exam did NOT test their practical skills. Many were undoubtedly good seamen but SOME WERE NOT.

Well, I'm always happy to have a debate but I'm bored with trying to get my point of view heard by a closed mind so I won't bother any more.
 
So now at last we have smoked out your agenda. You have come across a couple of yachtmasters who did something wrong so you are making a case that all yachtmasters who passed under the RYA scheme are incompetent idiots and all those who passed under the BoT were competent seamen.

It seems that in fact it is you who can't be bothered to read anyone else's posts. I will say it again. The BoT exam required NO SEA TIME AT ALL. People who passed it might have a fine academic knowledge of traverse and ex-meridian tables but the exam did NOT test their practical skills. Many were undoubtedly good seamen but SOME WERE NOT.

Well, I'm always happy to have a debate but I'm bored with trying to get my point of view heard by a closed mind so I won't bother any more.

You are correct in the statement with regard to seatime for the old Ocean Ticket. But you overlook completely what I have very clearly imparted to you.

I will repeat it again.

The examiner would interrogate the candidate at the beginning of the Oral Exam to assess the candidate's capability and experience level.

Bear in mind these examiners were not youngsters. They were retired mariners with square rig experience, and they were all Extra Masters. Do you understand that so far ? Because if you do not, as I am very patient and diligent, I will continue to explain it to you until you do, to your benefit and to my satisfaction.

And these gentlemen were appointed by the Board of Trade as they were considered to be the most qualified, the most competent and the most experienced to be able to examine ANY candidate of whatever rank, RIGHT UP TO THEIR OWN. Do you understand that so far, because if you do not, I shall start again until you do.

And these Examiners, you understand, were really experienced and deeply knowledgeable sea dogs that it was IMPOSSIBLE to pull a fast one on as they had seen and heard and experienced if not everything, then very nearly everyuthing that can be experienced. That is why they were chosen as examiners, to weed out unsuitable candidates. Does that make it more clear or must I explain it again ?

Once we have understood that, there is something else to understand.

A ticket could not be granted unless there was a pass in all the written papers and the orals.

A fail in the orals meant the candidate had to wait six months to take it again.

But the partial pass had an expiry date, and from memory it was two years.

It therefore meant that a candidate who did not satisfy an examiner could be penalised by being quite legitamately failed repeatedly until the seagoing experience could be satisfied, so it is not as you blandly imply, but far more complex.

You are not able to smoke out any agenda, because there is none, but you are succeeding in persisting in implying that I am saying something I am not.

Something wrong you say ?

You mean it is acceptable to park a ketch at the entrance to St Peter Port and argue with Port Control they are in St Helier ?

You mean it is acceptable behaviour not to understand what a request for a position means?

When you pontificate about practical skills what exactly do you mean by it ?

Do you mean the use of electronic gadgets or do you mean working out where an angry and drunken skipper is to be found in a tricky bit of coast and to orchestrate his rescue efficiently ?

What exactly are you implyiong by your bluster ?

I am now going to tell you about another incident that appeared in Yachting Monthly several years ago, similar.

Somewhere on the South Coast, the coastguard intercepted a distress call.
When they requested a position, the reply was "I am the Managing Director of so and so". Enough said.

I welcome intelligent debate. I do not tolerate silly circular contradiction for the sake of it. Judging by the number of posts it would seem the the odds are you contradict a lot of posters here, but I will not alloiw you to try it on with me, particularly because I am right.

Now let's see...to what would you attribute these anomalies...arguing with Port Authorities or getting lost at sea or not knowing how to respond to a call requesting a position?

Don't you think there is a very strong chance all these three have something in common ?

What could they have in common ?

Over reliance on electronics that fail ?
Inability to navigate without electronics ?
Inability to read a paper chart ?
Inability to work out a DR position ?
Inability to work out an EP ?
Inability to work out a fix ?

What could it be ? It seems obvious to me. It must be that they were taught, but whether they were taught properly is another matter.

And that is what happens when these things are dumbed down.

For this reason I do not subscribe to syllabuses being pruned the way they are nowadays because inevitably the kind of confusion that arises is the result.

The syllabus, I will tell you, is not only pruned on Navigation. The same is the case for Magnetic Compass and Electricity, The Meteorology Syllabus, The Syllabus for Chartwork and Pilotage. Soon there will be nothing left and one day sailing will be done by robots, if not sooner.:eek:
 
Last edited:
You mean it is acceptable behaviour not to understand what a request for a position means?

I'm curious.

How did you get from receiving a request for assistance, which presumably included a position, to a blazing row? How did you find out he was drunk? How did you get to examine his yachtmaster cert to ascertain it was one of the inferior modern ones? Why didn't the French frigate not answer the call if they were nearby? Had they been at the wine themselves?

Getting just the fragments of the story is most irritating.
 
I'm curious.

How did you get from receiving a request for assistance, which presumably included a position, to a blazing row? How did you find out he was drunk? How did you get to examine his yachtmaster cert to ascertain it was one of the inferior modern ones? Why didn't the French frigate not answer the call if they were nearby? Had they been at the wine themselves?

Getting just the fragments of the story is most irritating.

OK. This chap had bought a motorboat. There had been some drinking and frolicking on board. There was no blazing row. The call was made by a frightened crew member interrupted by the owner who was not sober. The crew member was very inexperienced but was sober. The owner was not. The owner had a day skipper cert. A day skipper cert is a modern cert., not a BOT Cert. As the call was very loud I pounced on it first.
I managed to get an idea of where they were and at this juncture the VHF traffic was intercepted by a French Frigate, to whom I then passed the details and an approximate position and then they took charge.
 
suggestion

good morning to all !

i agree completely with the post of snowleopard #83 ! no sence of arguing more !

as the interest of using the sextant is obviously very great and not so easy understandable for many, what i would like to suggest, for some of the winter's weekends, is to prepare and arrange a short introduction internet course/discussion, whatever you like to call it, for practical use and position fix, using the sextant!

what i have in mind:
- sextant - how to use and error finding
- VERY BRIEF theory for horizontal and equatorial systems or how are the stars positions
and indentified on the sky - needed to understand, why you will need the declination for
example, your approximate position, your time and etc
- star finder - identifying the stars before star observation
- using of sight reduction table for marine navigation
- calculation the position line
- plotting the position line on chart or on separate paper
- determining the position
- sun, polaris, distance from known shore object
- some tricks and hints

please note, this is NOT a preparation for a yacht master examination, but just shearing my knowledge of position fixing using the sextant!
after this one, you will be able to fix your position at open sea using the stars!

of course, this will be not free of charge - everyone may contribute, what he like, when he like and where he like, without obligation - the choice is yours ! :)

i need some preparation in advance as one things is to know, how to do the things and completely different is, how to show the others, what you know !

please let me know if you think that this is workable, is someone interested and any suggestions are welcome

thanks and wish you a nice day
regards



www.neatcss.com
 
good morning to all !

i agree completely with the post of snowleopard #83 ! no sence of arguing more !

as the interest of using the sextant is obviously very great and not so easy understandable for many, what i would like to suggest, for some of the winter's weekends, is to prepare and arrange a short introduction internet course/discussion, whatever you like to call it, for practical use and position fix, using the sextant!

what i have in mind:
- sextant - how to use and error finding
- VERY BRIEF theory for horizontal and equatorial systems or how are the stars positions
and indentified on the sky - needed to understand, why you will need the declination for
example, your approximate position, your time and etc
- star finder - identifying the stars before star observation
- using of sight reduction table for marine navigation
- calculation the position line
- plotting the position line on chart or on separate paper
- determining the position
- sun, polaris, distance from known shore object
- some tricks and hints

please note, this is NOT a preparation for a yacht master examination, but just shearing my knowledge of position fixing using the sextant!
after this one, you will be able to fix your position at open sea using the stars!

of course, this will be not free of charge - everyone may contribute, what he like, when he like and where he like, without obligation - the choice is yours ! :)

i need some preparation in advance as one things is to know, how to do the things and completely different is, how to show the others, what you know !

please let me know if you think that this is workable, is someone interested and any suggestions are welcome

thanks and wish you a nice day
regards



www.neatcss.com

Well I do not agree with Snowleopard post 83# at all.

I have said so very clearly and now I am going to say it even more clearly.

The current syllabuses of study for yachtmasters as set by the RYA are dumbed down rubbish, a disgrace for a great seafaring nation like this one to have to endure.

Your idea is a good one.

If you need constructive help, just ask.:D
 
When I'm in the office, I really enjoy reading and ocasionally contributing to threads on this forum. It's almost on a par with listening to Sir Terry Wogan in that it informs, entertains and amuses.

I've been out for a couple of days and logged-on at lunchtime today. The thread started so well but has deteriorated beyond belief. In the cold light of day there appears to be some exceptionally strong opinions and quite a few rude and disparaging comments made to others. Not very respectful, quite sad, really. Perhaps wise if I don't open this thread again.
 
I did the YM ocean astro course some years ago, but just for fun. It seemed a dying art and quite irrelevant to the future, so I wanted to learn it before they stop teaching it.

GPS is the way everybody navigates nowadays, oceanic, offshore, coastal, even in the blooming harbours these days. Having redundancy and backup is essential though, but even a cheap battery powered HH can do that. I would have thought more detailed knowledge of ocean weather patterns, GPS, rough weather sea handling, sources of weather info around the worlds oceans, global tidal patterns, etc, would be more relevant nowadays than using a sextant.
 
Oceanfroggie- Bingo !

I think that at 'Ocean' level what should be taught is selfsufficiency and that would of course include Bilbos sextant.
AND mateyVs appreciation of a comfortable working knowledge of the stars ,

AND with perhaps some reference to the subtler arts of navigation using natural phenomena as well, and why not..

I myself btw am a moderately crup/indifferent navigator but I usually get there one way or another and usually not first!

Does the RYA teach at Ocean level scenarios like-'OK lightning has struck, you have lost all things electrical in the boat and possibly have new unknown compass errors. Now get on with it...''

And '' OK you have just lost your rudder and unfortunately the boat immediately broached and downflooded the companionway and took out the radios.. Get on with it..''

I wonder if people who might have something useful to add are simply put off when this b000dy forum goes plain mean and self defensive, again and again?
 
GPS is the way everybody navigates nowadays ...having redundancy and backup is essential though, but even a cheap battery powered HH can do that. I would have thought more detailed knowledge of ocean weather patterns, GPS, rough weather sea handling, sources of weather info around the worlds oceans, global tidal patterns, etc, would be more relevant nowadays than using a sextant.

While I agree with the majority of what you say above, redundancy is not achieved by having another one of the same. There are significant concerns about whether and how long the present ageing Navstar constellation of satellites can be kept running. Half of them, when last I looked, have degraded to 'single point of failure mode'. They were never designed to last as long as they have - just consider when the GPS service first was declared 'operational and available' - and they won't last forever, or even much longer. After that, what?

In the meantime, a big solar flare could knock out over half the GPS satellites up there. A big electrical storm between you and the 'birds' your machine wants to use can block or distort the signals. So also can deliberate and unwitting interference. There's lots of that. Ask OfCom....

A professional navigator knows that NO navaid is infallible. S/he also knows the limitations, how to check, and how/when to drop into 'reversionary mode' practices so no-one is hazarded. That's what a pro gets paid for.

An essential part of that is being able to use 'reversionary' techniques AND having the necessary kit on board. Regulatory bodies around the world are currently assessing whether E-LORAN ( page down ) will do the 'redundancy' job.

In the meantime, for transocean sailors, astro is relatively cheap, relatively accessible, and relatively robust. If you can't be ar*** to learn how yourself, and consider you need to take the capability along, then PM me. I'm cheap, I have my own 'sun gun', and I need a sunny holiday..... :D
 
Last edited:
Oceanfroggie- Bingo !

I think that at 'Ocean' level what should be taught is selfsufficiency and that would of course include Bilbos sextant.
AND mateyVs appreciation of a comfortable working knowledge of the stars ,

AND with perhaps some reference to the subtler arts of navigation using natural phenomena as well, and why not..

I myself btw am a moderately crup/indifferent navigator but I usually get there one way or another and usually not first!

Does the RYA teach at Ocean level scenarios like-'OK lightning has struck, you have lost all things electrical in the boat and possibly have new unknown compass errors. Now get on with it...''

And '' OK you have just lost your rudder and unfortunately the boat immediately broached and downflooded the companionway and took out the radios.. Get on with it..''

I wonder if people who might have something useful to add are simply put off when this b000dy forum goes plain mean and self defensive, again and again?

Very much agree, 'BluBoatie' !

The idea behind this OP's thread - and others - is to encourage just the kind of interesting exchange of information and considered views that we've been getting.

Unfortunately, it also seems to encourage the 'fools and horses' to jump in, too. And that's deeply frustrating. I've been wondering how we could paint some red lines across the forum, two swords' width apart, like in the House of Commons.

We really don't need the irascible and pig-ignorant in here. We have 'The Lounge' for that.... :D
 
In haste cos the sun is over the yardarm ( somewhere..)

Speaking of pig ignorance, sir, I confess that ''I Aear cân ven na mar'' wasn't in any syllabus that I sailed close to..

Dare I ask...
 
The crew member was very inexperienced but was sober. The owner was not. The owner had a day skipper cert. A day skipper cert is a modern cert., not a BOT Cert. .

dayskipper really is beginners stuff (i speak as one who has it) and only claims to qualify you to skipper a small yacht by day in familiar waters. the fact they could see lights suggests they had gone a bit beyond this.
 
Well I do not agree with Snowleopard post 83# at all.

I have said so very clearly and now I am going to say it even more clearly.

The current syllabuses of study for yachtmasters as set by the RYA are dumbed down rubbish, a disgrace for a great seafaring nation like this one to have to endure.

Your idea is a good one.

If you need constructive help, just ask.:D

I'm up for it! Especially if V05 is teaching.....Loved the comments about being qualified to "take women and children" to sea. Hey, some of us even take ourselves to sea these days (think Laura Dekker / Guppy passes on both counts). Seriously though, sounds great fun.
 
Top