Sextant shortage

[VO5]

Sorry, only just come back to this thread due to real life activities.

Taking delight in the sheer mastery is obviously an enjoyable past time, I have no problem with that. But it doesnt mean the YM course is diminished by it being taken out of the syllabus.

I was trained to locate faults to within 3 miles in submarine cables over 2000 miles long, using a 50 year old light beam galvanometer. Also to identify which thermionic valve was faulty in a repeater thousands of feet below sea level. All very interesting and useful stuff at the time, but technology and life has moved in leaps and bounds since then.

Yes it would be fun to have the chance again, but I am not treating with disdain all the bright young engineers who can now click a mouse a few times to do all the work for them, and wouldn't know what on earth I am talking about.

Apologies if you are one of the majority who havent got a clue what I am talking about.

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Yes it does.

If you are the master of a vessel all this knowledge is not just useful, you may find occasions when it is utterly crucial. Then there is no time to refer to textbooks or for hand wringing in a crisis.

Let me tell you about my experience.

When I studied at Merchant Navy College for a Yachmaster Ocean Ticket, the standards were duantingly strict by comparison to today. My tutors were three extra masters, who were meticulous in their duty of care to every student right across the syllabuses, Chartwork, Pilotage, Navigation, Meterology, Magnetic Compass, Seamanship, Rule of the Road, Signals, etc.,

As the then syllabus of studies included Square Rig, they had advance knowledge that the examiners in Dock Street in London, having served their time under canvas were particularly fussy about candidates whose studies included sail.

Normally the oral exam was expected to take an hour and a half in all the other examining centres round the country, except for London. There, the candidate expected to face a bristling old sea dog with a model of a fully rigged 4 masted barque on a table to one side.

When all the questions in the oral syllabus were satisfied, out came the dreadnought....

One was expected to be able to name every jib, staysail, topsail, course and studding sail, explain how and why they were rigged, including details of spars and masts both wooden and metal, then to name all the standing rigging fore and aft and athwartships, then all the running rigging, including halliards, topping lifts, sheets, braces, both wire and rope...and then...for the icing on the cake...to point to each belaying pin for each rope. Why ? Because they had to be known and recognised in the dark.

Once having overcome this considerable hurdle, the examiner would the proceed to ask very detailed questions about sail and rig management, when reefing, going about by tacking, wearing ship, putting her in irons and whatnot.

One left the examination room with the pass chitty and one's knees knocking together I kid you not.

Has one ever sailed the Cutty Sark or HMS Victory ? The answer is no.

What is the benefit?

The benefit is in the tradition of imparting to British Sailors a full knowledge beyond that which would normally be considered necessary but priceless none the same. Absolutely priceless.

I am forever obligated to having enjoyed the priviledge of having nbeen correctly taught by such knowledgeable, strict, experienced and dedicated seamen. It causes me to fly my Red Duster with pride in their memory.

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[VO5]

I will just reiterate a point I made earlier. The old Board of Trade Yachtmaster required NO sea time, nor did it require the candidate to demonstrate any boat handling skills or ability to command a crew.

The fact that the Astro section required a few skills that are no longer tested does not make the olds-stager a better seaman.

I will nail my colours to the mast:

A person who passed the BoT Yachtmaster with the MINIMUM skill set would not be fit to command a rowing boat on the Serpentine. A fast-track RYA yachtmaster with the minimum qualifying experience still has a lot to learn but should be capable of taking a crew to sea safely.

Before you flame me for this be sure to read the whole of this post.

Yes, I have read the whole of this post.

Now I am going to explain something to you of which you are obviously unaware, otherwise you would not offer the comment you are offering.

The standard for the Yachtmaster syllabuses right up to 1980 or thereabouts in comparison to today were kept what might seem with hindsight to have been extremely high.

There is avery good reason for this.

This syllabus was intended to serve a dual purpose. The first purpose was to educate yachtsmen

The second purpose was to have a reserve of properly trained sailors who could be called upon to serve the country in case of need in times of war, commanding tugs, patrol boats, minesweepars, recovery vessels, minelayers, cable layers, hydrographic vessels, etc.,

As the Royal Navy has its own protocols and its own method of working ships it was not necessary to have sea time as on induction the Royal Navy would separately put Yachtmasters through their own hoop, so to speak.

It was considered more important than going out for a jolly on the solent.

It is this jolly on the solent that clouds the issue.

The issue being the whole thing today is not what it used to be.

As a consequence, at the expense of jollys, real traditional and thorough seafaring education in all its aspects is neglected, and because of the dumbing down process, it has also become politically incorrect, or even unacceptable to either recognise or to even complain, I respectfully submit.

 

[bilbobaggins]

As said before, 'respek'!

Just what do the qualifications of 'Master Mariner' and 'Extra Master' mean to yotties today? Do we have even half an understanding of the implications, that such an individual is judged by his peers, in depth of knowledge and experience, as 'master of his trade'? That such an individual's judgement, in his field, is to be held in properly-earned respect? And that while far less qualified opinion may be heard, here and there, out of courtesy, it is not to be heard from a similar degree of earned respect?

Do we really believe a callow 'zero to hero' RYA Yachtmaster is of similar competence and standing to a Master Mariner? Do we really accept that, by the simple addition of a first aid certificate and a medical exam, such an individual somehow becomes suitable to shoulder Commercial and professional responsibility for your or my children on the sea?

Accidents waiting to happen.....?

 

[DavenHelen]

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Yes it does.

If you are the master of a vessel all this knowledge is not just useful, you may find occasions when it is utterly crucial. Then there is no time to refer to textbooks or for hand wringing in a crisis....
...
One was expected to be able to name every jib, staysail, topsail, course and studding sail, explain how and why they were rigged, including details of spars and masts both wooden and metal, then to name all the standing rigging fore and aft and athwartships, then all the running rigging, including halliards, topping lifts, sheets, braces, both wire and rope...and then...for the icing on the cake...to point to each belaying pin for each rope. Why ? Because they had to be known and recognised in the dark.

...

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Doesn't quite tally. I can understand the advantages of Celestial Navigation, but surely, Tall Ship Rigging is an interest (nowadays) rather than a necessity.

 

[bilbobaggins]

....but surely, Tall Ship Rigging is an interest (nowadays) rather than a necessity.

Now you're going to have members of the Old Gaffers Association crawling out of the woodwork!

Haven't we upset enuff 'old gaffers' for one day...?

 

[VO5]

As said before, 'respek'!

Just what do the qualifications of 'Master Mariner' and 'Extra Master' mean to yotties today? Do we have even half an understanding of the implications, that such an individual is judged by his peers, in depth of knowledge and experience, as 'master of his trade'? That such an individual's judgement, in his field, is to be held in properly-earned respect? And that while far less qualified opinion may be heard, here and there, out of courtesy, it is not to be heard from a similar degree of earned respect?

Do we really believe a callow 'zero to hero' RYA Yachtmaster is of similar competence and standing to a Master Mariner? Do we really accept that, by the simple addition of a first aid certificate and a medical exam, such an individual somehow becomes suitable to shoulder Commercial and professional responsibility for your or my children on the sea?

Accidents waiting to happen.....?

I forgot and omitted and I will explain further.

A master Mariner is a certificated captain under the Merchant Navy Act.
There are three grades.
Master Home Trade.
Master Foreigngoing.
Extra Master.

The last is a vry high academic degree on top of the Master Foreigngoing Certificate. When they give up seafaring they accept academic, consulting, research, examining, management posts and so on. They are the Eminence Grise of the Merchant Marine.

All the Board of Trade Examiners were retired Extra Masters.

You can understand the calibre of examiner just from my comment.

The Oral Exam was an event that all candidates regarded with monstrous trepidation, right across the board, cadets, 2nd Mates, Chief Officers and Masters, because the expected grilling was formidable.

I have seen the previous candidate who was sitting in my class for Master Home Trade, leave the building, having been failed, in tears, a grown man, not a wimp at all, so you can imagine what it was like.

It was formidable but not unfriendly as the examiners were aware of their status, and the effect the mere thought of what they faced would have on candidates.

So it would start as a form of informal interview, in which the examiner would try to put the candidate at ease and then proceed to find out the extent of the candidates seagoing experience in different yachts and would genuinely show an interest in the intricacies of rig, seakeeping qualities, etc.,
This would go on for about five minutes. They would try to suss any weak spots in advance of the grilling proper.

These old boys were very experienced and deeply knowledgeable so it would have been if not difficult, well nigh impossible to get a fib past them, as they would pounce in the most minor detail in this preliminary discussion to get a feel of the candidate before they proceeded to unleash with increasing intensity the extent of their detailed and meticulous inquisition.

Then they would end this by studiously ticking a long checklist and making the pronouncement as follows:~

"Young man, I have a grave responsibility....and my responsibility is to ensure...that you are a fit and proper person....to take women and children to sea...and I am satisfied that you are...so...here is your slip...with which you can go and get your ticket.....Well Done".

Reply : "Thank You Sir".

 

[VO5]

Doesn't quite tally. I can understand the advantages of Celestial Navigation, but surely, Tall Ship Rigging is an interest (nowadays) rather than a necessity.

Is it ? It just goes to show doesn't it ?

One of the questions with regard to Square Rig that I remember was:~

"How would you wear ship (meaning a fully rigged ship) in a force four wind ?"

The correct reply is:~

"One does not wear a ship in a force four wind Sir"

The examiner asks "Why not ?".."Give your reasons"

Reply:~

"It is neither prudent nor seamanlike Sir, because certainly, as the mizzen mast does not have a backstay, there is risk of snapping the mizzen mast....and...in a worst case scenario...bringing down the major part of the rig as well".

You might ask how this might apply today, might not you ?

The answer is that there are vessels sailing today without backstays.

Ask the owner of a Gaff Rigged Vessel whether this is sense or not..

 

[VO5]

As a footnote, there are three types of Gybe.

A controlled Gybe, A n Uncontrolled Gybe and A Hudson River Gybe.

I am sure many of you are familiar with the first two but not the third.

In the third example, this is a monoevre skilfully excercised by our American cousins and derives from its use in the river of that name.

The vessel is allowed to run free with the mainsheet full extended.

The helm is put hard over, fast, away from the wind.....because it involves a fast turn in excess of 180 degrees using combination of helm and tide.

The boom comes across.....but......by the time the sail fills again all the power has been lost, so it works!

But don't try it please.

 

[DavenHelen]

Now you're going to have members of the Old Gaffers Association crawling out of the woodwork!

Haven't we upset enuff 'old gaffers' for one day...?

I was rather thinking of the:-

fully rigged 4 masted barque

 

[bilbobaggins]

I was rather thinking of the:-

I know, but....

 

[VO5]

Humm...

 

[BrickSailor]

Perhaps worh noting, though, that the fallback options for aircraft are also electronic: inertial systems for "navigation" and VOR/DME for "pilotage". I am pretty sure that 747s don't carry sextants or crew who could use them.

In my day job we have two GPS systems and two or sometimes three inertial systems, supplied from five separate power sources. As you say we do not carry sextants, but we do keep a plot running that can be used to continue using DR until coming in range of land-based aids.
I once had to revert to that level between Greenland and Canada. The First Officer was a youngster with the ink still wet on his licence on his first transatlantic trip; he found it a bit traumatic!!
Until we have that level of redundancy on a small boat, I will keep my sextant to hand. Although as our Hobbit friend can testify, I rarely stray too far from a snug bar these days and so rarely use it!

Under the old system there was maintained in place a carefully structured method of teaching this subject properly to Royal Navy standard

The Senior Service, along with many other government organisations, are of course world renowned for doing things in the simplest and most straightforward manner despite there being more complex methods available.

I'm afraid VO5, that while I agree that many of today's qualifications (not just RYA ones) are being "dumbed down" to the point of uselessness, tales of having to name square rig components merely fuel the argument that the old syllabus was hopelessly out of touch with reality. After all, how far back do you take it? Perhaps real navigators shouldn't rely on mechanical (let alone electric!) chronometers - astrolabe and rutter may be the Gold Standard.....

 

[snowleopard]

Do we really believe a callow 'zero to hero' RYA Yachtmaster is of similar competence and standing to a Master Mariner?

A master's ticket requires years of sea time in addition to the exams.

The BoT Yachtmaster required none. Anyone could, and some did, obtain a yachtmaster's ticket with next to no sea time.

 

[snowleopard]

The vessel is allowed to run free with the mainsheet full extended.

The helm is put hard over, fast, away from the wind.....because it involves a fast turn in excess of 180 degrees using combination of helm and tide.

The boom comes across.....but......by the time the sail fills again all the power has been lost, so it works!

But don't try it please.

Don't try it? I do it all the time! Perfectly safe as long as you don't have any stays to get in the way.

 

[Mark-1]

"I have a grave responsibility....and my responsibility is to ensure...that you are a fit and proper person....to take women and children to sea...and I am satisfied that you are...so...here is your slip...with which you can go and get your ticket.....Well Done".

I can't help but wonder if I would have been made of the right stuff for the Merchant Navy of yesteryear.

 

[VO5]

A master's ticket requires years of sea time in addition to the exams.

The BoT Yachtmaster required none. Anyone could, and some did, obtain a yachtmaster's ticket with next to no sea time.

Don't make us laugh.
Your argument is meaningless.
Read what has been explained to you with care.
If you do not understand what has been explained to you read it again until you do.

I have had two experiences with RYA Yachtmasters, one in the Channel Islands, with this moron at the entrance of St Peter Port in Guersey arguing blind with port control he was at the entrance to St Helier.

The other incident occured in the proximity of Concarneau.
This was in response to a distress call. As my vessel was the nearest I quickly replied requesting a position. The reply is unrepeatable in polite society.

 

[dolphin]

VO5 !

i am a little bit confused, with all my respect, to mr VO5, attitude !

for the simple use of sextant, the mr VO5, contribute almost 20 posts and everyone which have tried to help the others, how to use, this old method of position fixing, was .........!

i have one very simple question to mr VO5, in case some boatowners are on short budget, like me, how they can learn and practice the sextant if they can not fulfill below requirement

qte
You need to have the complete kit for it which is:~

A really good sextant, preferably fitted with light to read the arc.
Two mechanical stop watches for day use.
Two luminous stop watches for night use.
A chronometer. Mechanical or Elrectronic.
A copy of Nories or Burtons.
The Admiralty Almanack for the current year.
Foolscap paper.
unqte

i am not against to have the best one from the market but this do not help the others !
know, how to use, and how the stuff work is more important for me!

ok, i dont have a high cost sextant but cheap one without the light to read the arc
(one hint for you - i can find the sextant error)
i dont have Two mechanical stop watches for day use.
i dont have Two luminous stop watches for night use.
i dont have A chronometer. Mechanical or Elrectronic.
i dont have A copy of Nories or Burtons.

i have only radio, wristwatch, almanach for the current year & sight reduction tables ! and one more very important item - star finder))))

if we are in the middle of the atlantic, i bet, that the mr. VO5, with all the above fancy things, can not find his position, using the sextant for star observation, because, he forgot that he need to identify the stars before to commence!
without the stars, there is no position fix !

just to explain - the stars, are usually worked before sunrise and after sunset or at the time, when the dark or the lights are comming, the time is very short and if the stars for observation are not pre-scheduled by azimut and altitude, the work is impposible !

for all those that like to learn something for using the sextant, please have a look on my first posting - this is how to use the sight reduction tables for marine navigation !
have a look at introduction - a lot of usefull stuff!
beware of the sight reduction tables for air navigation - you can use these tables also but they are for time of 5 years if i am not wrong!
additional to the tables, one need to know, how to use the almanah, to identify the sextant error, correction of the observed altitude and how to add and substruct!

just try to convince everyone - this is not a difficult stuff to learn !

with best regards


www.neatcss.com

 

[bilbobaggins]

Hello, 'Bricksailor'!

It's good to note you're still sometimes around the 'land o' the leel'...

And as for....

Until we have that level of redundancy on a small boat, I will keep my sextant to hand. Although as our Hobbit friend can testify, I rarely stray too far from a snug bar these days and so rarely use it!

It's more than a little probable that Himself has, tucked away in his flight bag, a well-thumbed ICAO Publication containing the Right Ascension and Declination of every pink suchi house, Black Sheep Bar and 'brown cafe' between Camaret and Copenhagen!

 

[bilbobaggins]

This was in response to a distress call. ....The reply is unrepeatable in polite society.

May one inquire whether you added to his distress by suggesting, in a thoroughly professional way, that he do precisely the same thing to himself?

 

[Saguday]

What an astonishing thread.