Sextant shortage

[Deleted member 36384]

Who gives a flying f*** what the RYA think?

If you need astro, learn to do it.

If you don't, don't.

Simples.

I agree as an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor (Commercial), except that their syllabus is a minimum that should be covered on any course offering an RYA Certificate (of course).

There are better ways to learn Astro than the RYA Yachtmaster Ocean shore based course. There are good books that allow self tuition.
There is no substitute for actual sights, I used a cheepo sextant for years taking Vertcal Sextant Angles for coastal navigation - a method I particularly favour for fixing the yachts position. The VSA is a good way to get good practice at using the Sextant - even if its only to get used to balance and two handed sextant control!

Before my first Ocean passage I would faff about at home bringing stars and the sun down to roof tops, fields and hill side horizons. This was a good way of getting a feel for how fast the sun moves at mid day and judging the dwell point, and actually trying to find a bloody star at after twilight. This is the hard part not the arithmetic.

A previous poster talks about using templates for your calculations - it can take the fear of missing something out if you use a good template. Eventually the template becomes redundant.

For those who may be worried that its difficult to learn, its not - its easy. A bad teacher can fill your head with a load of nonsense which you don't need to know.

I attended the Yachtmaster Ocean course and came away a bit miffed. I picked up a book and learned more faster.

 

[VO5]

Sorry to read you are having some difficulty keeping up with the times. I hope you don't drop your sextant over the side ..... or spill coffee on you log tables .... or your slide rule snaps.

Oh, sorry, you are up with the times after all using a computer to communicate with others on this forum. Just as well, as the telegram service was phased out some years ago.

Don't you be so bloody rude.
Being ignorant is not a virtue, it is a curse. And the worst curse is to be ignorant and actually be proud of it, like you seem to be.
I prefer to navigate in the time honoured classical way because the sextant does not tell lies. I have on board GPS and all the other gizmos but do not rely on them. I take delight in the sheer mastery of being able to navigate by celestial observation out of sight of land by day and by night. You obviously do not understand this as it is beyond your frame of reference. That is your fault, not mine.

 

[VO5]

A little OTT I think

I took the YM Ocean exam in 1973 (I failed, my sun position put me in the middle of Dartmoor). I don't recall having to use ex-meridian tables so maybe things were changing even then.

I can't say 6 wpm of morse by light or 4 wpm of semaphore was ever a lot of use, then or since. The sight test to ensure you could distinguish red white and green lights really ought to still be in there but the biggest problem with the BoT exam was that you could get the ticket without even taking a rowing boat around the local lake.

I re-took the exam after the RYA had taken over and found it a much more demanding process.

I would say an oral exam with an experienced yachtsman interrogating you on planning and management of an ocean passage and your knowledge of world winds and currents, plus working sights under real conditions is a lot better assessment of one's ability to skipper a yacht across an ocean than being able to work out a haversine formula and show you can use Norie's.

The parts of the old syllabus that have been dropped have been replaced by things more relevant to today's world.

I doubt anyone who has sat a YM Offshore practical exam would agree that the RYA system is worthy of contempt.

It is all about collecting fees, for starters.

And to follow on, the whole syllabus has been watered down to comply with mainstream demand, rather than the pursuit of excellence.

The Board of Trade examination mechanism, for the written papers, the oral and signals were very strict and set to Royal Navy standards.

All this has gone out the window.

We were even taught compass adjustment on the Deviascope.

Wots that ? ...The great majority would not have a clue.


Great chunks have been taken out of the syllabus of studies.

 

[snowleopard]

Don't you be so bloody rude.

The attitude you displayed in your post richly deserves that type of reply. If you hold the RYA exam system in contempt, by implication you do the same for those who hold certificates awarded by that body. Having so lavishly insulted so many people on here, to imagine you will not get a robust response is, to put it politely, naive.

 

[VO5]

The attitude you displayed in your post richly deserves that type of reply. If you hold the RYA exam system in contempt, by implication you do the same for those who hold certificates awarded by that body. Having so lavishly insulted so many people on here, to imagine you will not get a robust response is, to put it politely, naive.

I do not hold RYA holders in contempt. Not at all. What I am saying it is a shame that the syllabus as a whole has been watered down to such an extent that many become confused as you can read in a neighbouring thread touching on this very topic.

Under the old system there was maintained in place a carefully structured method of teaching this subject properly to Royal Navy standard, which is no longer available today as the syllabus and the facilities to fulfil the syllabus to its complete extent, have been derelicted.

 

[timbartlett]

Even the fairly-esteemed writer of the RYA's Astro book - just launched - has recommended on these forums, to anyone considering an ocean passage, to 'get a GPS'. Fair enough. The Fellow goes on to suggest that a sextant ( and the know-how to use it effectively ) is better relegated to the role of an interesting toy. Hmmmm.

Maybe I'm being just a mite picky, but I don't think I ever described as sextant as an interesting toy. I do, however, remember describing a sextant as a fascinating piece of georgian technology that you can still use today for its intended purpose, and saying that you can't call yourself a Navigator unless you can do astro.
But I also think a GPS is quite a handy thing to have on board.
Fair winds
T

PS Thanks for the subtle plug for the book. I just wish I was getting royalties on the sales of sextants!

 

[VO5]

Maybe I'm being just a mite picky, but I don't think I ever described as sextant as an interesting toy. I do, however, remember describing a sextant as a fascinating piece of georgian technology that you can still use today for its intended purpose, and saying that you can't call yourself a Navigator unless you can do astro.
But I also think a GPS is quite a handy thing to have on board.
Fair winds
T

PS Thanks for the subtle plug for the book. I just wish I was getting royalties on the sales of sextants!

Yes, exactly.

 

[bilbobaggins]

... this horrific hidden agenda in place to dumb down, to disinform, to disempower, to disable and ultimately to make subservient.

I hold the old ticket since 1971,( Certificate of Competency, YACHTMASTER (OCEAN) ) It reads:~

YACHTMASTER OCEAN CERTIFICATE
A. Written Examination - Navigation (3 hours)

(a) To obtain the deviation of the compass by time azimuth of a heavenly body or amplitude of the sun by means of tables , diagrams, or any other method the candidate may select.

9b) The use of the traverse table to obtain the position at any time , given compass course and errors, the run recorded by log or calculated by time and estimated speed, the allowance for current and leeway.

(c) To find the latitude by meridian altitude of a heavenly body and to calculate the approximate altitude for setting on a sextant to obtain a meridian altitude.

(d) From the observation of a heavenly body near or out of the meridian to find the direction of a position line and a position through which it passes by direct calculation or by using any short method table.

(e) To obtain a position by the combination of any two observations with or without a run.

(f) The care of chronometers and other timepeices, rating and comparison, Radio time signals, time keeping at sea. Standard and local times, the time of rising, meridian passage, and setting of heavenly bodies.

Respek! "Cos you're worth it...."

This calls to mind the story of the gnarled ould fisherman-skipper from somewhere not far from 'Mowzl' who, for some strange insurance-related reason, had to go up to 'Lun'n' to get a Board of Trade Certificate for doing what he, his father, and his grandfather had been doing all their lives.

He was ushered into the dark wood-panelled interview room, carrying his cap, where a series of coloured 'ships' lights' were shown from behind sliding panels. Those, of course, he had known perfectly since his early schooldays.

The interview progressed, with the august Examination Board asking tougher and tougher perplexing questions, until "Tell me, my good fellow. What's the brightest light in the English Channel?"

"Why, zur, that be daylight, zur......."

 

[bilbobaggins]

Maybe I'm being just a mite picky....
"If you are navigating for pleasure and interest, buy a metal sextant."

OK, OK, that's another beer I owe you! Just tweaking tails, from a safe distance!

Nevertheless, There's certainly a gulf of awareness and, probably, capability between those who studied the old syllabus - and learned to use it - and those who didn't.

What troubles me just a little is the state of mind of some of those with a shiny new Yachtmaster ( Commercial ) certificate, who go outside VHF range, then have a real problem that wasn't in the syllabus. Or even those with an Ocean 'sustificate' who encounter an extra-tropical revolving storm north-east of the Azores, and are nonplussed - to put it mildly - 'cos that's not supposed to happen.

I suppose it's all down to personal attitudes. There's nothing to prevent yotties like us taking our knowledge and skills further than the RYA's programme. It's a matter of enthusiasm, prudence, and the willingness to learn something else. But Lord save me from those who have all the 'little bits of paper' and believe, in some mediaeval fashion, that waving their clutch of RYA Certificates at a gathering storm halfway across Biscay will somehow quieten the waters.

And their touching assumption that all those who set off across an ocean - or even down to the Azores or Canaries - make it to the other side.....

 

[Neil_Y]

I never did the course or exam but had the interogation after some long passages and submitted some sights and plots.

It was thorough, and it was clear the aim was too see if you were competent to take a yacht or vessel transocean. I think the shore based course (having known several people who have done it) is more of an introduction to the use of a sextant plus a bit of planning and routing.

The sextant is a very useful tool on any boat, gps's do fail. The coast of Northern Spain was my chance to test my navigation, after 36 hrs 250nm without gps (three failed) we closed (10nm) some high cliffs and only had a single lighthouse appearing occassionaly through the low cloud, the sextant and hand bearing compass gave me an accurate fix in a matter of minutes. There was no chance of any sun or star sights as the weather was horrible.

So get a sextant and try and use it a few times a year, it may prove vary handy one day.

Maybe I should start selling sextants?

 

[Poignard]

I remember crewing on an ocean crossing where the navigation appeared to be entirely conducted on a laptop. I'm not sure how this as done as the operation was veiled in secrecy, but after a few days out, the navigator suddenly produced a sextant and took some sights before disappearing below and spending a long time doing calculations and filling the waste paper bin with the results. Then the sextant was put away, never to reappear for the rest of the voyage.

In those days I was less considerate of people's feelings than I am now, and I asked the navigator how the results obtained from the sights compared with the electronics. Unfortunately I did not have the pleasure of receiving an answer.

 

[VO5]

Lat by Mer Alt of stars and planets is easy and takes say 10 mins.
Lat by Polaris is a doddle and takes ene less than that.
Noon fix depends on period of observation before and after the correct altitude is acertained, because it may involve plotting using a graph.
Ex mer is more extended and takes a fraction longer.
Long by chron takes 15 minutes or so
Long by sunrise and sunset takes 5 mins at the most.
all of these times are affected by how easy or difficult the interpolation may turn out to be.
Azimuths again are not difficult but again the interpolation is the part that needs particular care.
It is all a matter of practice. The more the art is practised the easier it is.
If it is not practised then it can go rusty.
The fear of it going rusty is probably what stimulates skilled navigators not to let go and just turn to electronics.
What you describe is a rusty navigator struggling to recover his lost art in the face of a failed electronic system.

 

[VO5]

There is a very nice clean looking Heath Hezzanith Sextant currently on offer at ebay if any of you are interested. I know this model well. It is very solidly built, very accurate, has a clamp that when you squeeze it,you can move the index arm freely, has a combined celestial telescope, in its own box. I had one like this when I started, then I traded it in and got myself a Carl Zeiss Yachtsmans sextant, less heavy, with light, which I use regularly to this day, it has zero error throughout the arc, perfect. I love it.

 

[VO5]

Then I had a mechanical 8 day gimballed chronometer in a box which I disposed of in 1989 and replaced it with a Patek Philippe electronic, which is fabulous, correct to one or two seconds a year. Perfect.

 

[VO5]

A further note:~
Do not be tempted to buy a miniature sextant. They were designed for Polar Exploration. They are unsuitable for marine use on a yacht because the motion makes for very difficult sight taking. Additionally there are lots of copies on offer, they are useless.
Also Verniers should be avoided - unless - you stumble on a really good one that hasn't been "cleaned" and has no error of side, index, or perpendiculaity.
It is false economy to buy cheap stuff. It is best to choose a respected maker and avoid bargains. Really good sextant fetch high prices. Be sure to have the instrument inspected by an expert or eximine it yourself.

 

[VO5]

...And never...never lift it out of its box by the index arm or look through it at the sun without the shades in place..

 

[Pete7]

Maybe I should start selling sextants?

Which brings us neatly back to the subject of the first post. A shortage of Sextants

I believe the hobbit has at least 3 and may be increasing his collection as we speak. Are we to see a repeat of the 1637 Dutch Tulip Bubble ? will ordinary folk be priced out of the market for sextants. Will pirates charge around the channel demanding "your sextant or your life". Qucik buy a sextant they are going up in price every week.

BB what have you started

Pete

 

[LONG_KEELER]

...And never...never lift it out of its box by the index arm or look through it at the sun without the shades in place..

I would love to learn how to use a sextant properly.

As I am primarily a coastal sailor with a limited budget it would seem that it would be a very expensive proposition.

Didn't the Vikings do pretty well without one though ?

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Bilbo, you're probably the chap to answer a question that's puzzled me ever since I discovered the bubble sextant. Why aren't all sextants bubble sextants? Surely it's easier and more reliable to use the bubble than trying to find a horizon in poor visibility?

I am absolutely useless with any sextant except, for some reason, a periscope sextant - a skill of limited use on most boats but I'm not sure if I'd want to lose the whole arcane "black arts" thing around it and I love the idea of a beautifully made piece of engineering - the good ones are things of beauty.

I'd have thought that someone would have incorporated a chronometer and electronic tables into one by now though, possibly even a star guide of some kind guiding you to the right celestial body. It shouldn't be that difficult to make it so the only input required is approx position and type of shot being taken and then press a button to log the time of the shot. It could even guide you through running shots.

 

[srm]

Have not been on the forum for a few days, but can not help adding my little bit here. Many years ago I had a go at Rob James at an instructors' conference. The RYA requirement of a 500 mile passage is plain daft for an ocean qualification, but they had just accepted a 300 mile passage across the North Sea as qualifying for YM Ocean . . . contempt does seem a reasonable word for my feelings at the time. Rob James did not seem to be very sure what the RYA actually wanted from its Ocean candidates. Perhaps things have changed.

Interestingly, I was still teaching use of sextant and astro to MN and fishing deck officer candidates: sun, planets, stars, and Polaris for compass error, right up to my retirement a couple of years ago. The MCA regard it as essential back up for the professionals, even if it is a bit quaint when you visit the wheelhouse of a fishing vessel or bridge of a modern MN ship.

For those of you who want to learn astro calculations I would suggest a pocket calculator and plug in the numbers from the almanac and sextant into the PZX formula rather than the RYA method with the Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation they are expensive (and having just posted two volumes off to a buyer also heavy). The only time I have used the Air Nav tables was when teaching RYA Yachtmaster Ocean shore based courses.

Use of the sextant can be picked up from a book while holding the instrument (well I did it this way while sitting under a tree in the grounds of UKHO in Taunton rather than admit I had never used one before) It then requires practice, and more practice.

As to buying a sextant - full size metal frame and big mirrors are probably best for small boat use.

Long before the electronic toys were invented that so many would be lost without I used to carry a sextant while coasting - it is a quick and easy range finder from light houses and other points of known height - cross the range with a compass bearing and it provided a fix from a single object . . . and if that does not make sense you need to go a bit deeper into the art of navigation than the RYA courses take you.

I happily use all the gizmos available, but they are only 'nice to have'. Its good to know that if all electronics fail I can still find my way home without outside help using simple instruments and techniques.

Have fun, there is an element of satisfaction in using a sextant.