geem
Well-Known Member
If you aren't going to have a lithium fire because it has never happened, what is the technicality?
Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)
- Thread starter davethedog
- Start date
billskip
Well-Known Member
If an insurance company requires a declaration and you fail to comply, that becomes a technicality when a claim is made. This, as said before, is about compliance with the insurance companies requirements not about the batteries reliability.
What you seem to be saying is "don't worry about your insurance " the battery won't cause a problem. Proving all your theories in court after the fact could take years if the insurance is going to challenge your claim, doesn't matter what anybody says it matters what the insurance companies say ,they have the money, you want the money, what I'm saying is conform to the insurance t's&c's because it could be the difference between a full payout or a significantly reduced one leaving you to find the shortfall.
It doesn't matter how you think it works, what matters is how it will work, and if you have to start court proceedings there is obviously something serious at risk, why didn't the insurers just pay up ?why is one having to resort to court proceedings?
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
UK consumers can go to the financial ombudsman free of charge, the service also tends to take a greater interest in ‘fairness’ then a court might do.
Insurance
billskip
Well-Known Member
This maybe so, but why is it necessary to go to the Ombudsman?
If you have left a loophole because your mate on ybw says it'll be OK, it's obviously not OK if you end up with a dispute.
Even the Ombudsman has guidelines and it's not a very quick process, which could still end up a settlement leaving you at a loss.
billskip
Well-Known Member
From your link...
The insurer might argue that if you had given true answers, they would have acted differently. As a result the insurer might:
- want to charge more for the policy
- retrospectively apply a restriction to the policy – which may mean any ongoing or future claim might be declined
- settle a claim proportionately
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
The point about the FOS is that UK consumers can have their case reviewed by an independent third party without the risk of legal costs nor finding themselves being worn down by an opponent with far greater resources at their disposal.
They helpfully publish previous decisions on line should you wish to learn more
billskip
Well-Known Member
I have consulted the Ombudsman in the psst and am fully aware, but thanks for posting it up because if it saves one person from difficulty or financial loss its a win.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Don't get the point of the last load of posts. Why not just insure with a company that doesn't restrict your DIY LFP installation ?
billskip
Well-Known Member
There isn't really any point, but it's possibly not always easy to find an alternative, or wait till the policy expiry.
Not everyone wishing to install lifepo4 has their boat in uk water...
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Same point as the anti lithium crowd banging on about danger. None at all.
billskip
Well-Known Member
Yep same point about nothing at all, it's a forum.....
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
Getting back to more useful stuff, ie a list of insurers who will or won't cover LiFePO4 installations with or without DIY installation, I have now changed my insurance from Haven Knox-Johnston Specialist (won't accept DIY installation) to Craftinsure (who will accept DIY installation, as long as it follows manufacturer's recommendations etc etc ie it has to be done properly which is fair enough, and is what I would do anyway regardless of the insurance requirement, because surprisingly I care about my boat and my life). Conveniently, my boat insurance renewal happens at the start of September, so I just took out the new insurance to start at my renewal date, and the old insurance will lapse. Doing the switch mid term might incur extra costs eg cancellation fees etc. The Craftinsure premium is £80 more, but I consider that tolerable since I will save a lot more than that by doing a DIY installation.
Perhaps others with positive and negative experiences of trying to get LiFePO4 cover could provide details of their experience. It seems to me that naming (and shaming when it applies) really is a very practical way of getting insurers to consider their position on such matters.
Craftinsure are 'interesting' in that instead getting you to fill in a very long tedious and boring form to get a quotation, they only ask for the minimum of information. I presume they have whittled down the questions to those that they think really do affect risk, probably making a lot of assumptions along the way, and dumped the rest. In any event, it does make getting a quote relatively easy. Do be aware however that they haven't totally dumped the bogeymen clauses, After you have accepted the quote, but before paying, you have to agree to a raft of conditions, including but not limited to a recent (within five years) survey if the vessel is over 20 years old, and a 24 hour limit on single handed sailing (which as it happens is better than HKJ Specialist, where the limit is 18 hours). The may be another LiFePO4 requirement, to have a 'lithium' fire extinguisher on board, but this only came up during the web chat, it is not in the policy documents, and I am not sure how binding it is. If it is, there are affordable (but probably meaningless) ways of complying.
Curiously, as noted in a previous post, although I have changed broker (and policy name), it looks like the service provider (money man in the middle?) and certainly the underwriters, are the same. I have no idea why the same underwriter has a different approach to risk depending on the broker. Perhaps it is all part of their 'statistical calculation of risk', which comes up with a different answer depending on which way the wind is blowing when they set down the policy details. Truly, no mere mortal can ever hope to comprehend the workings of an underwriting mastermind equipped with a 'statistical calculation of risk' calculator.
Perhaps others with positive and negative experiences of trying to get LiFePO4 cover could provide details of their experience. It seems to me that naming (and shaming when it applies) really is a very practical way of getting insurers to consider their position on such matters.
Craftinsure are 'interesting' in that instead getting you to fill in a very long tedious and boring form to get a quotation, they only ask for the minimum of information. I presume they have whittled down the questions to those that they think really do affect risk, probably making a lot of assumptions along the way, and dumped the rest. In any event, it does make getting a quote relatively easy. Do be aware however that they haven't totally dumped the bogeymen clauses, After you have accepted the quote, but before paying, you have to agree to a raft of conditions, including but not limited to a recent (within five years) survey if the vessel is over 20 years old, and a 24 hour limit on single handed sailing (which as it happens is better than HKJ Specialist, where the limit is 18 hours). The may be another LiFePO4 requirement, to have a 'lithium' fire extinguisher on board, but this only came up during the web chat, it is not in the policy documents, and I am not sure how binding it is. If it is, there are affordable (but probably meaningless) ways of complying.
Curiously, as noted in a previous post, although I have changed broker (and policy name), it looks like the service provider (money man in the middle?) and certainly the underwriters, are the same. I have no idea why the same underwriter has a different approach to risk depending on the broker. Perhaps it is all part of their 'statistical calculation of risk', which comes up with a different answer depending on which way the wind is blowing when they set down the policy details. Truly, no mere mortal can ever hope to comprehend the workings of an underwriting mastermind equipped with a 'statistical calculation of risk' calculator.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Regardless of your thoughts on the subject, personally attacking a well respected forum member is not acceptable. I suggest you keep to the subject of actual qualifications and their utility.
Lucy52
Well-Known Member
A battery does not live in isolation, there are control circuits, wiring and connections all of which must work as intended,
Due to the low internal resistance of lithium cells, failure in part of the system could result in large uncontrolled currents being drawn, potentially leading to overheating and damage in a place other than the battery.
For example, many batteries use switching diodes in the internal BMS, if one fails shut, which it could, then that cell will be out of control, and take whatever charge is available to it. Only if an external control prevents an over heating or overcurrent event, and shuts the battery down, will further damage be avoided, In this respect, batteries connected in series would need special attention.
Yes, if properly designed and installed this wouldn't happen, but many systems are installed on a DIY basis, without a knowledge of the system design, component specification, and installation practice needed for a safe system. Just look at some DIY wiring.
Due to the low internal resistance of lithium cells, failure in part of the system could result in large uncontrolled currents being drawn, potentially leading to overheating and damage in a place other than the battery.
For example, many batteries use switching diodes in the internal BMS, if one fails shut, which it could, then that cell will be out of control, and take whatever charge is available to it. Only if an external control prevents an over heating or overcurrent event, and shuts the battery down, will further damage be avoided, In this respect, batteries connected in series would need special attention.
Yes, if properly designed and installed this wouldn't happen, but many systems are installed on a DIY basis, without a knowledge of the system design, component specification, and installation practice needed for a safe system. Just look at some DIY wiring.
geem
Well-Known Member
Install to ABYC standards. It should be an insurers requirement to do so. If you don't, you won't have insurance for a battery related issue. If you don't know how to do electrics, you shouldnt be installing lifepo4 batteries.
As has been repeated a number of times, there is no evidence that lifepo4 cells burn. They don't suffer thermal runaway in the same way other lithium chemistries do. They will vent gases that are pretty nasty but no evidence they spontaneously combust.
My JK BMS have two battery temperature sensors and a BMS temperature sensor. Over temperature events will shut down the battery. Over current events will shut down the battery.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
I think that's a fair description of the challenge -- the potential of "large, uncontrolled currents" -- but I don't think it's rocket science or, indeed, beyond the understanding of a reasonably competent DIY'er, to mitigate that. A layered defense against dangerous fault conditions is the way to deal with it.
The first line of defense is a BMS which will open MOSFETs or contactors in case of overcurrent (or overtemp) or other fault conditions.
Second line of defense is fuses with the proper interrupt capacity rating. This is all that's needed in a million high powered electrical applications, to prevent uncontrolled currents in a short circuit situation.
Third line of defense, in my system, is contactors triggered by a Cerbo GX in cases of overcurrent (measured by shunts on each battery and on the main bus), overheating (separate independent temp monitor), overcharging, some other fault conditions.
This is simply a much BETTER system than the lead-acid system which it replaces, much more and better safety systems, much better collection and display of data, and so vastly much safer despite the low internal resistance of lithium.
People converting from lead are almost always ripping out something which is decades old and so therefore which can't be all that safe anymore, and replacing that with something new and much better. It's got to be a net plus for safety in almost all cases, and that much better when the system is built up out of raw cells, rather than relying on whatever is enclosed in drop-in lithium batteries.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Top post
jakew009
Well-Known Member
Sorry to drag this thread back up again
Can someone tell me which insurance companies are currently "friendly' towards DIY lithium installation?
Can someone tell me which insurance companies are currently "friendly' towards DIY lithium installation?
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
No, it appears to be a secret
I'd be interested too, but very few insurance companies have been named. I think Craftinsure might be one?
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
No, it appears to be a secret
I'd be interested too, but very few insurance companies have been named. I think Craftinsure might be one?
I mentioned a few posts back that Craftinsure were in my experience 'lithium friendly', including DIY installation, with only reasonable requirements in place, and suggested that others who know their insurers position on lithium batteries might care to post details for the greater good, but the suggestion appears to have fallen on deaf ears.
I have no idea why people are so coy about their insurer's position on lithium batteries, except that it may be they worry that if they spill the beans ie their insurer has a relaxed approach to lithium, their insurer will for some reason or other somehow make their terms more restrictive. But frankly that seems to me a rather paranoid position, and more to the point, for a marketplace to function, we punters need to know what the various sellers have to offer. Furthermore, making public those offerings (even better, why I ditched X Insurance in favour of Y Insurance) just might if we are lucky encourage those insurers with restrictive clauses to reflect on whether they really need them.
