Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)

[PaulRainbow]

Complete nonsense. BM qualifications are industry-recognised and regulated as part of ofqual. If you'd ever been to see their apprentice workshops and training facilities in Poole you'd understand why. Raymarine work with British Marine BMEEA Council directly as do numerous other industry professionals. Don't knock it just because you haven't got any relevant qualifications yourself.

Maybe email all of these people and tell them they've wasted their time because you learnt everything from a Google search:

Meet the Team

It's a trade organisation, pay them money and you're a member.

My qualifications are 50+ years in the automotive and marine industries and i'm happy to use my name on these forums, rather than the silly name you use, which you hide behind, as you are really in the trade, selling stuff on Ebay and Gumtree, along with pretending to sell "on behalf of a mate" on the for sale forum.

 

[Tranona]

It's a trade organisation, pay them money and you're a member.

No different from many other trade related organizations that provide recognised qualifications. Their electrics/electronics courses are aimed at people who have already served an apprenticeship or qualified in an electrical discipline.

 

[Tradewinds]

Any experience of Pantaneus and LiFePO4?

May I refer you to my original post earlier this year.
My insurer is Pantaenius UK ( who covered me on my trip around the world back in the 90s - when Barrie Sullivan was in charge)

Thread 'DIY LiFePo4 installation - Don't do what I did (maybe) . . .'

7 Mar 2025

. . . Notify my boat insurers that I'm changing to a LiFePo4 battery installation.

We note that you are planning to upgrade to Lithium batteries. Underwriters have requested you please confirm full details of the make, model and type of the any lithium batteries, confirmation that the batteries are marine grade and suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control and charging methods and that all elements of the electrical system are lithium compatible. Please also confirm whether the batteries and associated equipment were...

• Tradewinds
• Replies: 225
• Forum: Practical Boat Owner's Reader to Reader

 

[Lucy52]

There was a Fire on a Trip Boat at Gayton marina on the Inland Waterways about two weeks ago. It was an all electric boat, the batteries were charged overnight for use the next day.

It went up while charging, resulting in some kind of flash over or explosion which ripped the rear door off, and burnt the boat out.

There is much speculation that there were LFP batteries onboard, though there is no confirmation of this, or even if the batteries were the cause of the fire.

The outcome of the enquiry into this fire, possibly the first recorded fire involving LFP batteries on a boat, may well inform insurance companies about the possible risks involved with boats using LFP batteries. And they may develop stricter guidelines for the installation in boats.

I believe there is a draft BSI on the installation of lithium batteries in boats, which would likely take any new findings into account.

The marina and other interested parties are remaining tight-lipped, and we will have to wait for the result of any enquiry or press announcement to find out more.

Oh Dear. Electric DayDream over (Gayton Boat Fire)

 

[[164147]]

It's a trade organisation, pay them money and you're a member.

My qualifications are 50+ years in the automotive and marine industries and i'm happy to use my name on these forums, rather than the silly name you use, which you hide behind, as you are really in the trade, selling stuff on Ebay and Gumtree, along with pretending to sell "on behalf of a mate" on the for sale forum.

There are plenty of people in the trade who have been doing things wrong for 50 years Paul. Tenure doesn't guarantee quality.

I have no interest in advertising our business on here unlike you. Marine professionals don't have the time to have 15000 posts on internet forums. Armchair experts who do the odd-job here and there do.

Maybe get yourself a recognised qualification if you want to be taken seriously outside of the internet.

 

[aqua_sax]

There was a Fire on a Trip Boat at Gayton marina on the Inland Waterways about two weeks ago.

This is the same incident as the one discussed both in this thread and the other one (A Man Who does not mince his words.) and on numerous other forums. I only mention this so that people don't think there have been two separate recent incidents that may or may not have involved LiFePO4 batteries.

As it happens I have just done a search of the MAIB reports for anything containing the word lithium. Of the 1,070 reports available, not one contained the word lithium:



We're still stuck with Macavity the Mystery Battery

Macavity’s a Mystery Cat: he’s called the Hidden Paw—
For he’s the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He’s the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad’s despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime—Macavity’s not there!

I'm still waiting for the first verifiable report of a LiFePO4 house (domestic) battery installation on a yacht either directly or indirectly (by which I mean some characteristic particular to only LiFePO4 batteries) caused a fire/explosion or other significant harm or damage.

 

[Lucy52]

Thank-you, I missed that, there is more than one long thread on here relating to LFP batteries.
As mentioned, there is no record of a boat fire caused by LFP batteries, even less so from the MAIB. The MAIB is very unlikely to get involved in an incident like this, it comes under the local authority, who may escalate it to HSE if they feel the need.

While it is likely that LFP batteries were on the boat, their role, if any, has not yet been established, it might just as likely have been caused by poor system design or installation.
We await the outcome of any enquiry with interest.

 

[PaulRainbow]

There are plenty of people in the trade who have been doing things wrong for 50 years Paul. Tenure doesn't guarantee quality.

If i'm doing it wrong, where is all the negative feedback ?

I have no interest in advertising our business on here unlike you. Marine professionals don't have the time to have 15000 posts on internet forums. Armchair experts who do the odd-job here and there do.

Maybe get yourself a recognised qualification if you want to be taken seriously outside of the internet.

Your "qualification" was gained by completing a two day British Marine course, which is why you jumped in on post #221. Laughable.

27-29 – British Marine Electrical Technician BMET & MEI (Bournemouth & Poole College) - BMEEA

 

[billskip]

Maybe get yourself a recognised qualification if you want to be taken seriously outside of the internet.

So people without a recognised qualification are Not to be taken seriously.
You have got a lot to learn sunshine, better get on instead of wasting time here.

I knew a lot of Qbe's back in the 60's could out perform the ology's by a county mile.

 

[aqua_sax]

Thank-you, I missed that, there is more than one long thread on here relating to LFP batteries.

It's an inevitable problem with forums. All we can do is try to keep on top of things, and avoid spurious duplication whenever possible.

As mentioned, there is no record of a boat fire caused by LFP batteries, even less so from the MAIB. The MAIB is very unlikely to get involved in an incident like this, it comes under the local authority, who may escalate it to HSE if they feel the need.

The narrowboat fire was on an inland waterway and so a different jurisdiction (and set of rules) but the point of my MAIB search was along the lines of if LiFePO4 batteries are so dangerous, then surely there must have been incidents worthy of MAIB investigation. But there isn't a single one, as you say, though there is one MAIB 'li-ion' report which doesn't appear in the search results, but it is unrelated to the risks we are interested in, since it happened on a "specialist deep-sea vessel was using equipment capable of operating at extreme depths to conduct deepwater experiments", and from the report does not appear to have been a LiFePO4 battery. Hence Macavity the Mystery Battery - he's not there!

I agree ultimately we should wait (for ages) for the results of any official investigations before assuming definitive answers, But I don't think it does undue harm to consider what we do know. A point I made earlier is that I am currently considering fitting a LiFePO4 battery and associated kit for house (domestic) use, and in practice I can only consider what is currently known. If I were to wait for any official report, and it did show LiFePO4 batteries were somehow responsible, it is still only one incident, in a setup that is not the same as mine will be, against a backdrop of God knows how many uneventful LiFePO4 installations.

 

[[164147]]

If i'm doing it wrong, where is all the negative feedback ?



Your "qualification" was gained by completing a two day British Marine course, which is why you jumped in on post #221. Laughable.

27-29 – British Marine Electrical Technician BMET & MEI (Bournemouth & Poole College) - BMEEA

No Paul - what's laughable is your dismissive attitude towards those professionals committed to supporting the marine industry. The simple fact is that your exposure to the industry is so small you don't understand the importance of what BM do or the qualifications and training they provide. Boat builders, OEM suppliers, further education & apprenticeships, those with contracts with the Police, Government or Military all support BM and put their staff through training. If you've ever been involved with commercial contracts, SOLAS requirements, charitable organisations, working in Europe or a hundred other reasons you would know this. Pretending professional qualifications are irrelevant just reinforces you're a big fish in a small internet forum.

 

[[164147]]

So people without a recognised qualification are Not to be taken seriously.
You have got a lot to learn sunshine, better get on instead of wasting time here.

I knew a lot of Qbe's back in the 60's could out perform the ology's by a county mile.

I have no issue whatsoever with competent people earning a living sunshine - the issue is with alleged professionals claiming professional qualifications are meaningless. Keep up.

 

[billskip]

I have no issue whatsoever with competent people earning a living sunshine - the issue is with alleged professionals claiming professional qualifications are meaningless. Keep up.

Whatever.

 

[PaulRainbow]

No Paul - what's laughable is your dismissive attitude towards those professionals committed to supporting the marine industry. The simple fact is that your exposure to the industry is so small you don't understand the importance of what BM do or the qualifications and training they provide. Boat builders, OEM suppliers, further education & apprenticeships, those with contracts with the Police, Government or Military all support BM and put their staff through training. If you've ever been involved with commercial contracts, SOLAS requirements, charitable organisations, working in Europe or a hundred other reasons you would know this. Pretending professional qualifications are irrelevant just reinforces you're a big fish in a small internet forum.

Just a load of waffle to deflect the fact that, as per post #229

"Your "qualification" was gained by completing a two day British Marine course, which is why you jumped in on post #221. Laughable.

27-29 – British Marine Electrical Technician BMET & MEI (Bournemouth & Poole College) - BMEEA"

2 days

 

[dunedin]

There is also another option, which I have already put to my insurers: go ahead anyway with the installation, regardless of their endorsement embroidery. My thinking (and that is all it is at this stage) is that I can achieve a safe installation, at least as good as any professional. I'm not a fool, and am good with my hands (once upon a time, a very long time ago, I earned my daily crust opening up people). A simple one battery LiFePO4 installation is not complicated. Now the crucial question is, do I have confidence in my installation? Am I prepared to have not just me, but my friends and family sleeping on board after I have done the installation? Can I reach a state where I have achieved an installation that is so safe that there is in effect zero risk? If I can, then do I really need to insure it against failure? This line of thinking is of course predicated on the idea that insurers can't refuse an unrelated claim on the basis that something else not related to the claim isn't as they would like it to be.

I'm just posting this as a thought at this stage. It does seem to me ridiculous that the marine insurance industry has taken what on the face of it is a most unreasonable line. Yes i absolutely know they can do this, but what about common sense?

Bear in mind you might be then not covered for third party damage due to any fire resulting- which could be several millions if impacts nearby boats. Your work might be excellent, but can you be certain that there are no manufacturing flaws in the battery, chargers etc you purchased? Even Victron etc have failures.
You might not just lose your boat but house, car etc as well. It is to avoid that risk that we pay for insurance.

 

[Trident]

There are plenty of people in the trade who have been doing things wrong for 50 years Paul. Tenure doesn't guarantee quality.

I have no interest in advertising our business on here unlike you. Marine professionals don't have the time to have 15000 posts on internet forums. Armchair experts who do the odd-job here and there do.

Maybe get yourself a recognised qualification if you want to be taken seriously outside of the internet.

I work as a marine electrical engineer. I mostly install LiFePo4 and solar etc for long term cruisers. I can't prove it and i don't really know but I would guess that I have installed more LifePo4 on boats than most in the UK; It's been almost daily for about the last 5 years. For the last two I have made all my own battery packs (interesting insurance requirements for that). My only qualification as such (though I have passed multiple "Mickey Mouse" certification courses by manufacturers of the equipment) is a degree in electrical engineering and the fact that I started wiring at age 7 for my dad's company (making safety equipment etc for the railways - which had multiple strict testing regimes which none of my work, even aged 7 failed) and have done many thousands of hours for the last 50 add years since then.

Where I work I have two main rivals in business (not really as I get all my work by word of mouth and am somewhat specialist with the cruising conversions) - one has a nice office and workshop, did a 6 week course and at the end immediately employed an apprentice to train himself with his now vast experience and whilst reasonably competent now - after several years of work - I still meet customers who will never use him again because ... The other is a man in his late 60s who has no qualifications and is the first name everyone speaks of when asked who they recommend because he knows his stuff and does a good job every time. If I were a punter I know where I would go.

I worked for a year on a huge project with a traditional shipwright of many year "unqualified" experience during which he took an a newly "qualified" person from the college - I will admit their woodworking skills were great after two years of training - but with no on the job experience in the real world they would take an 8x4 sheet of marine ply and start cutting parts out from the middle - potentially wasting a lot of expensive wood. When putting lovely carved teak caping rails on we had to explain sika because that was never used in the college - it began and ended with wood, not anything that wood would have to fix to in the real world.

Whilst courses may be a good start for some, realistically I would not touch anyone who had done a course and got the "qualification" without then having done plenty of time working under an old salt who had many years of real experience .. you know like Paul Rainbow . Many of the so called qualifications are woefully easy (and yes I have looked) and require little practical testing.

I had assumed it was only on boats as a minor industry but even things like NICEIC for domestic electrical work are a trade body with quite low standards of training and multiple chances to get qualified no matter how much you fail and involve very little practical work - make some glad I wired my own houses !

 

[Trident]

Bear in mind you might be then not covered for third party damage due to any fire resulting- which could be several millions if impacts nearby boats. Your work might be excellent, but can you be certain that there are no manufacturing flaws in the battery, chargers etc you purchased? Even Victron etc have failures.
You might not just lose your boat but house, car etc as well. It is to avoid that risk that we pay for insurance.

An £80 third party only insurance policy will cover that - they ask no questions at all about the boat or what's in it . I've just arranged one for world cruising - I have full cover in the UK and Europe but the premiums for Caribbean and S. America, even Africa were ridiculous and the Red Sea not available but world wide third party damage , no problem and no questions asked (NB, £80 was the UK premium they quoted )

 

[dunedin]

An £80 third party only insurance policy will cover that - they ask no questions at all about the boat or what's in it . I've just arranged one for world cruising - I have full cover in the UK and Europe but the premiums for Caribbean and S. America, even Africa were ridiculous and the Red Sea not available but world wide third party damage , no problem and no questions asked (NB, £80 was the UK premium they quoted )

Yes but unless a very low value boat most people prefer comprehensive cover, which generally includes 3rd party. If buy a second 3rd party insurance policy things often get tricky if need to claim when there's are two policies in place covering similar risks.
Also amazed any insurer would do 3rd party for so little as £80. After admin and tax must be near zero for the underwriting element.
And even a small boat can cause big repair costs if it even gently scrapes (let alone sets fire to) a neighbouring £1m plus yacht.

 

[geem]

Bear in mind you might be then not covered for third party damage due to any fire resulting- which could be several millions if impacts nearby boats. Your work might be excellent, but can you be certain that there are no manufacturing flaws in the battery, chargers etc you purchased? Even Victron etc have failures.
You might not just lose your boat but house, car etc as well. It is to avoid that risk that we pay for insurance.

There are no recorded failures of lifepo4 batteries causing a fire on a boat. If you can find one please show us the evidence

 

[billskip]

There are no recorded failures of lifepo4 batteries causing a fire on a boat. If you can find one please show us the evidence

That maybe so, but it doesn't give you a get out of jail free argument against insurance companies term's and conditions, or against their loss adjuster.